i am having a bit of a moral dilema, one of the residents of the deathtrap i live in is subletting his room out to a nigerian illegal imigrant whos 3 month visitors permit has expired, 2 months ago, he has been here a week now and i have told him he has to leave or i will report him to the home office and have him deported.

he is not entitled to any of our state benefits or healthcare, and under the terms of his visitors permit is not allowed to work in the uk, all of which he is taking advantage of, ie not paying taxes and draining the resorces of the services provided to us the english born residents.

i dont want to turn this into a rascist issue, but i am so pi.ssed off with the amount of illegals that enter this country and abuse the system, it is because of people like him i have been waiting 6 years to get a place of my own, and i am still waiting and will continue to wait for a much longer time if nothing is done.

so i guess my question is should i report him today before he has chance to move to another location to avoid detection or should i not do anything?

[Raynaadi]

That is hard....it's hard to do something and be labled racist, but the fact that a lot of turn the other way is partly why it's such a problem. I live in a border town, so I see a LOT of it. A lot of actual citizens being denied because the resources are being spread so thin. I can only speak for myself, so I'm trying to decide what I would do if it were me. I guess I can apply it to voting. I always say if I don't vote, I can't complain about the results. So, if I didn't take any action, even a small one, I can look at it the same way. I think I'd report it, if I were in your position. I'd report any other illegal activity, so I'd report that as well. Good luck, and keep us posted.

~Rayna

[SeptemberMorn]

I know how you feel! I would report him!

i guess people come because they were having an even worse time of it where they were coming from.

i know things can be hard... long waiting lists etc etc even when one is a resident. but in a lot of respects it must be even harder for illegal immigrants because they have to hide from the authorities (they won't be calling the authorities if someone mugs them or rapes them or burgles them). i know it is a bummer when one has to wait for healthcare or whatever but what is this guy supposed to do? get no healthcare at all?

thats not my point alexandra, he should not be here in the first place, it is a common ruse to come to england has a "mature" student on a 3 month visitors permit, when that permit has expired they disapear of the radar of the immigration service and continue to use the services before they are caught and deported back to there country of origin, he is not entitled to any government benefits so works illegaly, pays no taxes yet uses the healthcare, and other services and will continue to do so until he is caught and deported.

all the time it is us/me the british tax payer who is paying for his free ride, it has to stop someware and i have the chance to stop this one and you have convinced me i was right in thinking i should report him and so i have sent a email to the immigration people with the address he is staying at before i posted this reply

[Anony]

I would definitely report him. If he wants to work and live in that country so much, then he should do it the right way. I'm very much sick of the illegal population in this country as well and it would help a lot if everyone pitched in to help clean it up (wherever you're located)

> he should not be here in the first place

yeah. as you said he is an illegal immigrant.

why is he there? because... he has a better life where he is than where he came from? all i'm doing is shifting the focus away from the legality / illegality of it all towards the understandability of it all... i guess what i'm doing is... well... personally... i have a lot of sympathy for the plight of illegal immigrants. people have posted supporting the idea of turning him in. i guess i'm posting in support of the idea of not turning him in. why isn't he a legal immigrant? because of immigration? sometimes people aren't allowed to immigrate even though the country might actually rely on the immigrants for the countries economy (e.g., what would the US do if all the mexican immigrants actually were deported???). and yet... the US won't grant them legal immigrant status. kind of a double blind what are they supposed to do kind of thing...

> he is not entitled to any government benefits so works illegaly

right. he works.

> pays no taxes

he would be deported if he tried to pay taxes.

> yet uses the healthcare, and other services

how does he access healthcare and other services without a tax number or whatever?

> and will continue to do so until he is caught and deported.

and then he does what? goes home... do you know what his life was like back home? do you know why he wants to be where he is? is he hoping for a better life for his children if they are accepted as residents (when he has them)? things must be pretty bad back home for one to live in a country under threat of deportation (i would have thought). did he confide in you when he told you his status?

> all the time it is us/me the british tax payer who is paying for his free ride

how much does he get for working under the table? does he make more for not paying tax or does he make less for not paying tax (i.e., does he make less because people can get away with paying less than the minimum wage even)? he is working... he is working hard by the sounds of it... i don't really get what sense he is getting a 'free ride'.

> i have sent a email to the immigration people with the address he is staying at before i posted this reply

ah. done done can't be undone.

i'm sorry.

in reply to your concerns



he has a better life where he is than where he came from?

Because of people like him, I being born and bred in this country, 1 am unable to secure perminant accommadation ( its been 7 years now living in sh.it hole after sh.it hole) because he will claim asylum and be housed whilst his claim is processed then rejected, then he will appeal again, further extending his stay, on the second appeal he will be entitled to benefits where he will be given perminant accomadation whilst his claim is being processed, when his application is rejected again he will disapear until found and forcible deported only to be on the next plane, train, boat back, whereas I am stuck in a housing system that is clogged up with bogus claimants like this person relegating me to the bottom of the list every time another one of the people join the list.

> he is not entitled to any government benefits so works illegaly

under the terms of his visitors permit (expired) it states he must have the financial means to support himself for the duration of his stay, he is not allowed to work, or use any medical services without declaring his visitor status. And he has to have the means to be able to travel home, in the uk we provide a free medical service to uk residents which is regulary abused by foreign travellers has you don’t have to sign any paperwork other than give them your name to see a doctor to be treated, by working and not paying taxes he is getting this service for free, and by not having the means to travel home we the british are obliged to pay the said travel, so do you see the free ride now?

>do you know why he wants to be where he is

Because he like thousands of other illegals know how hard it is for us to deport them back to there own country, and in the mean time we are obligied to pay there every expence whilst the due process takes place, I would call that a free ride.

Mellors, I hear your frustration. But believe me its not just the illigal immigrants that "milk" the system. Its at times our "own" people that milk the system. I have a family of "Our" people that live next door to me that are proffessional "milkers". Sometimes these illegal immigrants work harder to get somewhere. Its so nice to be able to put our frustrations into a nice neat little box, but sometimes its not the answer, of course the gutter press do a great job of creating a very hostile enviroment. I have had to create a better life for myself, just like some illegals are doing. Life isn't perfect.

[sabby]

Aside from this being a "moral" issue, it is also a "legal" issue. You most certainly have the right, as a LEGAL citizen to turn this individual into the authorities. You also have the right to access what is offered by the governments/counsils to aid you in living properly.

It seems to me that if you are asking the question, you have some doubts in your mind/heart about doing it. All I can say is, do what you feel you need to do. Prepare for the results of that action....1. that the individual is processed back to his homeland and 2. that nothing at all is done about it by the immigration folks. 3. if you have "doubts" about turning this individual in, then you will certainly wrangle with your moral/rights thoughts.

Maybe, writing down the pros and cons of this action will help you come to a decision.

I, myself am dealing with an immigration problem from the other side of the spectrum. I'm trying to get my husband to the states from another country, legally. Let me just tell you how frustrated we are with the immigration in the US! Have we considered doing it illegally? You better believe it! Will we do it illegally...NO WAY! We could not stand the idea of being "on guard" all the time and worrying about being caught, not to mention the moral dillema that would ensue.

I hope you can come to a decision that you can live with easily....much luck to you!

> Because of people like him, I being born and bred in this country, 1 am unable to secure perminant accommadation

ah, yes of course, it is all their fault.

and who cares about what happens to them when they are deported eh?

[SeptemberMorn]

And just how is your statement supportive to Mellors??

I'm sorry - that probably wasn't so helpful. I wasn't sure what the intention of the thread was to start with. I wasn't sure whether you were weighing pros and cons (hence wanted to hear from both sides of the issue) or whether you wanted support for your perspective (whichever that way fell) or quite what would be helpful to you.

I don't mean to make you feel worse. I'll admit my heart sank somewhat when I heard you had reported him already. I'm not really sure what to say to that...

I don't know that we appreciate how wonderful things are at times. Living in a developed western nation. Sure we have lots and lots and lots and lots of problems. But there is this spirit of optimism that you can earn / work your way up if only you work hard enough (which may not be the best attitude but it is an attitude of promise for some people). I have trouble comprehening how things are for people in other parts of the world. I meet a lot of immigrants but usually they immigrate because their parents basically brought them their legal immigrant status. Oftentimes they are the people who don't really gain much (in terms of quality of life) in immigrating. For the people who it really makes a difference to... Oftentimes the governments simply won't grant them legal immigration status. I remember watching on the news that this asparagus grower in NZ had to mow his asparagus crop down because even paying close to $20 per hour he could not get workers to do that. What I thought was... 'you really mean to say that there isn't anybody in the world who would be willing to pick asparagus at close to $20 NZ per hour if they were granted NZ residency'? What a sad sad world we live in. That is what I think most of the time. What a %#@&#! sad sad world. Where people live in places where they can't get fresh drinking water. Where people live in places that aren't safe (with respect to military and bombs and the like) and yeah sure our lives suck one hell of a lot at times. We go on wait lists and such and that really sucks. But you know there is a lot going on in the world.

Did I choose to be born a NZ citizen?
No.
My NZ citizenship kept me alive when other countries would have left me to starve.
My father walked when I was 7 and my mother went on welfare. That was how she fed and clothed me.
But you know I really had nothing to do with my NZ citizenship.
What would have happened to me if I'd have been born in Nigeria or China or the US?
The government (welfare) has supported me fairly much since I was 7 years old.
Then the government stepped in when they realised my mother was abusing me. They put me in a home.
Then the government paid me an allowance so I could live independently at 16 so I could finish school.
Then the government paid me an allowance so I could go to university and they gave me a loan so I could borrow for my course costs and my books.
Then I got a scholarship (in another country) to do my PhD.

But the government of my country kept me alive when many other governments wouldn't have.

Did I choose to be a citizen of my country? No I did not. My parents made that choice well before me. I had nothing to do with it.

Luck luck luck...

I don't think there is anything fair about luck.

And I certainly don't feel... A sense of entitlement.

I wish everyone had the same luck and opportunities that were given to me.

I'm sad the illegal immigrants are (have to be) illegal. It isn't their fault they were born into whatever country they were born to. They miss out on the states protection already (they can't call the cops when someone screws them over). I don't feel a sense of entitlement because my parents happened to be legal. I had nothing to do with that. Just like I'd have had nothing to do with my parents happening to be illegal.

I don't know what to say.

I'm sorry you are having a hard time of it.

And... I'm even sorrier that you are blaming that on 'the immigrants'

[JustAPixie]

I did not read any responses... so forgive me if I'm repeating something....

I live in South Africa and we have the exact same thing happening here... There is place here where it is so bad that not even the police can go there for fear of their lives. They say if you make it to there you are home free...

You can feel sorry for him all you want... but will you feel sorry for all the nigerians having heard their stories??? Would you invite all of them to live there? You cannot make exceptions, because in the end, where do you draw the line....

You should not feel guilty for being born in a better country... it's not like you ruined nigeria... it's not your responsibility to fix their problems... Have compassion yes, and cry while you report him, but you must report him... How will it help the uk if no one reports anyone? You are helping one person but in the end you are ruining a lot of other lives... including your own...

The more illegal immigrants... the higher the crime... now if this guy cannot work anymore and is forced to steal for survival and he hurts someone in the process... would you still let him stay??? You don't know what it will turn out like...

Laws are there for a reason and the more people break them, the worse the whole country is off...

Don't make your choice based on this guy, but make it based on the consequences that might arise from him staying... and on that note... them all staying...

REPORT HIM!

unbelievable...

All we need is facist armbands and everything will be fine LOL

> I live in South Africa and we have the exact same thing happening here...

really? i thought south africa's biggest problem was dealing with the indigenous people...

> There is place here where it is so bad that not even the police can go there for fear of their lives.

and that is a function of immigration??? do you mean the white immigrants or immigrants who are more recent???

> They say if you make it to there you are home free...

is that how the white folk felt when they landed to you think?

> You can feel sorry for him all you want... but will you feel sorry for all the nigerians having heard their stories??? Would you invite all of them to live there? You cannot make exceptions, because in the end, where do you draw the line....

to report or not to report that is the issue. i don't really see the relevance of other lines...

> You should not feel guilty for being born in a better country...

i think one should be careful with respect to judging which country is 'better'. as they say: 'it all depends on where you live'. would i rather be a leper starving in india or a us soldier drafted to vietman... hard to say imho hard to say...

> it's not like you ruined nigeria...

i think we should be sensitive to people living in nigeria who think that nigeria is a beautiful and wonderful place.

> it's not your responsibility to fix their problems...

i don't see anybody saying it is...

> you must report him...

in your opinion.

> How will it help the uk if no one reports anyone?

why is the uk worth more than the people from nigeria?

> You are helping one person but in the end you are ruining a lot of other lives... including your own...

wow. you really think this one person is ruining mellors life? has anyone heard the phrase 'scapegoat'? remember when people thought the jews were ruining peoples lives? doesn't this situation remind anybody of 1984? i'm completely baffled by this attitude...

> The more illegal immigrants... the higher the crime...

do you mean that this follows by definition (because illegal immigrants are definitionally illegal and hence are guilty of related crimes like not paying their taxes) or do you really mean to stereotype illegal immigrants as being criminally inclined to perform crimes against persons?

> now if this guy cannot work anymore and is forced to steal for survival and he hurts someone in the process... would you still let him stay???

OMG. if he is forced to steal for survival you would condemn him and deport him????

> You don't know what it will turn out like...

so better to conclude that this can come to no good?

> Laws are there for a reason and the more people break them, the worse the whole country is off...

i wish that i could believe that laws were there for GOOD reason but unfortunately they are often there for idiosyncratic reasons. i'm not sure that the laws really are all there for the good of the country and i'm really not at all convinced that the country is worse off for people breaking some of them (especially those that are not crimes against persons).

> Don't make your choice based on this guy, but make it based on the consequences that might arise from him staying... and on that note... them all staying...

because if you don't report him then...

the nigerians will take over the UK hahahahahaha!!!!!

eh?

[SeptemberMorn]

...

[LMo]

Mellors, do you have the answer to your question yet? This is taking a very heated tone; obviously, most involved hold some strong opinions (as do I, actually) and although this would make for a fascinating discussion, I don't think that PC is the right place for debates about the ethics and legality of illegal immigrants.

So, Mellors, if you still are seeking support, please let me know.

Otherwise, this isn't the place for ethics/legal debates. I would love to get into this discussion myself, but PC isn't the place for it.

Thanks

Oh but this shouldnt be off topic. We're all adults, we'll all responsible for our reactions. I feel the only way any of us can learn is to see things how they really are, and that includes peoples not so "Politically correct" opinions... Mellor has a right to her opinions as do we all..by "putting it out there" maybe she may get a different angle on her thoughts and maybe some of us will also...I do hate it when posts are censored or stopped, for god sake this isn't a childrens site...to much "oh don't say that or say this it may hurt someone one" to much "I;m leaving" posts when someone feels they've been slighted...for gawd sake!

Rant rant rant lol

[Perna]

For me, if I told him I was going to report him, I probably would? Often we're so culturally schooled to think of ourselves as snitches or "bad" for reporting crime, especially when it is related to our own situations or triggers. I try to take the "moral" out of it and make it as black and white as I can in cases where I'm tying myself in knots. The law says he has to be registered, he's not registered and could be a security risk to myself and others so I'd report him. It's not germane how I feel about illegal aliens and that whether I "agree" with the law or not; in a country where political freedom counts, people who don't like certain laws can do lots of things to get the law changed. Right now though, the law says. . .

[LMo]

Mouse, in many ways I agree with you on a personal level, but those are the rules of the site, and as one of the site administrators, I am asking to take heated discussions offline. Thanks.

I find that a bit scary, having personal values and then doing something that goes against those values? maybe the rules need looking at lol.

[JustAPixie]

I'm sorry that I evoked suched a heated response from you alexandra... I was not attacking you... I understand your view on the whole thing, and I accpet it, pleace accept mine.

You did hurt me by what you said and the way you said it. I will not counter your argument here because I feel I already said what I wanted to.

I know this was off topic, but I hope you get some insight to all of the aspects of your situation mellors...

[Wants2Fly]

Mellors, you seem to have made your mind up. I agree with LMo that this is the not the place for a political discussion. I can say that this is a very difficult issue, and I support you in whatever choice you make about this.