[Onward2wards]

Something about the whole notion of a "psychological disorder" has been bothering me. Clearly they exist, they can be quantified and categorized; the distress is real. However, when attempting to describe a specific issue, surely there is some unavoidable degree of subjective relativism?

For example, what if it were widely accepted within society that real, graphic torture of people on television at 6pm daily was valid entertainment? What if someone found this reprehensible, and out of a mix of empathic outrage and internal locus of responsibility took it upon themselves to protest, loudly and repeatedly? Are they being "oppositional defiant"? "antisocial?" "excessively emotional?" Or do they "have a valid argument, but are using methods which are disruptive and personally dangerous"?

Do you see what I mean? It would depend upon a subjective opinion of both the individual and an outside observer what the "truth" really was. Depending upon that "truth", a person could be lauded as visionary and heroic, or end up with a diagnostic label - or any possible variation inbetween. Of course this is an imaginary and extreme example, but it intrigues me that the possibility is logically there.

Think of homosexuality. At one time, this was considered aberrant behavior in need of intensive therapy. Today, as the preference becomes more widely accepted, "poof!" a "disorder" magically vanishes into the ether. Think of people who in ages past would be lauded as "one with God" or "having an intense meaningful spiritual experience", and yet today might technically be considered suffering from a delusion or even a Cluster A personality disorder.

To what degree is a personal or interpersonal experience really a disorder? This is a difficult question for a well trained clinician to answer. With the advent of readily available information electronically and in books, how many psychologists get fed up with people believing that they have a severe dysfunction, when in fact these clients are misinterpreting their own subjective evidence in a well-intentioned effort to define their problems?

From a certain perspective, a psychological problem only exists when you and/or someone else says it does. This is obviously not true of the more blatantly evident dysfunctions, but I think it is quite possible in the more "grey area" type of issues where cultural bias and understandable individual differences come into the equation. I would think that this really muddies the waters in cases of people having what are technically delusions but they are commonly accepted as "facts" within the broader society or subculture, or when people have been abused to the point of gaslighting, so they have difficulty asserting their own truth, for example.

I'd like to hear other people's take on this.

[venusss]

They say it's disorder if it affects you negatively in your life.

But I wonder why instead of trying to eliminate it outright... why don't we first try to get comfortable with it? I mean, being tall chick is PITA, when trying to squeeze your legs in a bus or lowcost airline... I feel awkward towering over people. Hard to find tights or pants that don't like as if I am expecting a flood. Seem psychiatry like solution would chop off my legs (or drug myself to a degree I don't care about/comprehend my tallness any more).

Of course, hard to get comfortable with being horridly anxious or depressed (although I noticed that simply pushing through helps. Repeating myself I am not going to die gets to my rational part of brain...). But other things? Take schizotypal label. I mean, isn't that what we used to call shy weirdos or nerds? Or ADHD... sure it is disorder in the most severe form, but is really every little Johny and Katie who hate school disordered? Shhhhh, I hated school on the elementary level and if I been growing up today I'd be pumped up with drugs likely... ever considered that some of the kids plain don't pay attention because they don't consider it worth it? And seriously, not every kid cares about grades. Some don't. And it's not a disorder, it's different level of priorities or even maturity.

Or PTSD. I made few enemies over my stance here... but I will say it again.... being traumatized after experiencing ****ed up **** is not a disorder. It's normal. The traumatized veterans are not disordered. Whoever the **** thinks that they should come back from hell and be all smiles and roses... those are the ones that are ****ed up.

In a way, I think being depressed or bit "weird" in today's society... tells more about the society than about the individuals. If according to statistics 25% of Americans experience "Mental illness" in their life... then it tells us something on the societal level. Don't try to pass it off as one quarter of the people having bad brains.

[glok]

The issues you raise are not new. The anti-psychiatry folks have been quite adamant in its criticism of the diagnostic process. The Myth of Mental Illness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The recent revision of the Diagnostic and Statical Manual had/has its critics:

Mislabeling Medical Illness As Mental Disorder | Psychology Today

Second opinions:

My Opinion on Second Opinions | Psychology Today
A Second Opinion About Second Opinions | Psychology Today
7 Tips When Getting a Second Medical Opinion | Psychology Today

Elisha Goldstein, Ph.D., in The New Mental Health Bible - DSM-V: Friend or Foe? | Mindfulness and Psychotherapy

There is a place for diagnosis, it gives us a common language and allows us to test interventions that can be helpful to one group of people suffering with similar symptoms. Also, some people feel relieved with a diagnosis because something concrete has been identified and can be worked with.

However, since the dawn of man there has been suffering and perhaps creating more diagnoses complicates the human condition. Perhaps the answers to healing are simpler.

And, yes, a diagnosis is an educated opinion. Second opinions may be helpful. How about third, fourth and more opinions? The process has been the focus of much thought. Who knows if we will ever be satisfied? That said, we need to lend our voices to the debate.

As an aside, I will point out in the US system of justice, someone's guilt does not establish the person did the crime but that a judge or jury said he/she did.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

They say it's disorder if it affects you negatively in your life.

But I wonder why instead of trying to eliminate it outright... why don't we first try to get comfortable with it? I mean, being tall chick is PITA, when trying to squeeze your legs in a bus or lowcost airline... I feel awkward towering over people. Hard to find tights or pants that don't like as if I am expecting a flood. Seem psychiatry like solution would chop off my legs (or drug myself to a degree I don't care about/comprehend my tallness any more).

Of course, hard to get comfortable with being horridly anxious or depressed (although I noticed that simply pushing through helps. Repeating myself I am not going to die gets to my rational part of brain...). But other things? Take schizotypal label. I mean, isn't that what we used to call shy weirdos or nerds? Or ADHD... sure it is disorder in the most severe form, but is really every little Johny and Katie who hate school disordered? Shhhhh, I hated school on the elementary level and if I been growing up today I'd be pumped up with drugs likely... ever considered that some of the kids plain don't pay attention because they don't consider it worth it? And seriously, not every kid cares about grades. Some don't. And it's not a disorder, it's different level of priorities or even maturity.

Or PTSD. I made few enemies over my stance here... but I will say it again.... being traumatized after experiencing ****ed up **** is not a disorder. It's normal. The traumatized veterans are not disordered. Whoever the **** thinks that they should come back from hell and be all smiles and roses... those are the ones that are ****ed up.

In a way, I think being depressed or bit "weird" in today's society... tells more about the society than about the individuals. If according to statistics 25% of Americans experience "Mental illness" in their life... then it tells us something on the societal level. Don't try to pass it off as one quarter of the people having bad brains.

Still just cannot rationalize it not being a disorder when it effects day to day functioning and causes much pain and misery for the sufferer and for many is a life long condition? And it consists of problems the person did not have before.

I would probably agree its not a disorder, if everyone got what is known currently as PTSD after a traumatic experience. Thing is they don't for a lot of people they have PTSD like symptoms for a somewhat short period of time afterwards and while it still is likely to always have an effect on them...it doesn't persist the way PTSD does....seems like some people assume traumatic experience=PTSD, but only some people who go through trauma end up developing PTSD.

Also its no wonder 25% of americans have or do suffer from mental illness, or society is kinda screwed up so no suprise there.

[venusss]

Still just cannot rationalize it not being a disorder when it effects day to day functioning and causes much pain and misery for the sufferer and for many is a life long condition? And it consists of problems the person did not have before.

is every unpleasant experience a disorder though?

I believe every person has a tresshold of breaking........... some deal with trauma better due to complex circumstances, which actually includes having support network.

Also its no wonder 25% of americans have or do suffer from mental illness, or society is kinda screwed up so no suprise there.

But is it actual illness than? If people in Africa die of hunger, is starvation an illness or simply result of the really bad situation?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

is every unpleasant experience a disorder though?

I believe every person has a tresshold of breaking........... some deal with trauma better due to complex circumstances, which actually includes having support network.


But is it actual illness than? If people in Africa die of hunger, is starvation an illness or simply result of the really bad situation?

No that is what I mean not every unpleasant experience is a disorder...that is why I mention some people who experience trauma do not develop PTSD. In the case of that one a traumatic event contributes to developing the disorder but there are other factors that can make one more susceptible to it.

I mean basically PTSD is when the brain cannot process the stress of the traumatic situation so it screws it up, a lot of people go through trauma and are able to process it though it will remain a painful memory and likely come up with reminders and what not but PTSD is a more specific set of symptoms that last and prevent one from functioning....hence why I see it as a disorder. I mean its not normal to not be able to set foot near a school(college, elementary,highschool whatever) without feeling like its a lockdown with a man running around with a gun in the school again...I spent quite a lot of time last time I went to college going into a certain bathroom on campus that rarely had people so I could hide in the stall trying to gain my compusure before class to minimize people looking at me weird or wondering what the hell I am so anxious about. To me that is not normal, I mean yeah that happened but I feel normal would be having it stay in the past where it belongs...and recognizing that happening in the past doesn't mean its going to happen again just because an environment reminds me of it...rather then going into crazy hypervigalent fight or flight, Oh crap I might die mode when there is no danger...sucks if people are around because I don't want to walk around looking like I feel like that.

I also prefer the term disorder to illness, I mean if it was an illness it would go away....but the way I see it my PTSD effected/changed the way my brain functions in such a way it functions worse than it did before making it a disorder/condition. I mean its not like a brain disease or virus that enters your brain its the brain changing in such a way it functions in a disorderly manner.

[Nammu]

I think I get what you are saying. I'll use PTSD also as an example. Tell me if I'm off the track.

If people would just accept that someone has been traumatized and that they are acting differently than they used to act, just accept that different behavior and give more reassurance there would be less need to label it. But people want everyone to stay within their already established bounds of behavior..Change is not easily accepted by others even when that change is a normal reaction to something they have gone though or a reaction to a physical change in their chemistry.

We expect change from kids as they grow but if they don't start walking, or talking by a set time then it gets labeled. Would it not be better to not label them and just encourage and accept them as they are?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

I think I get what you are saying. I'll use PTSD also as an example. Tell me if I'm off the track.

If people would just accept that someone has been traumatized and that they are acting differently than they used to act, just accept that different behavior and give more reassurance there would be less need to label it. But people want everyone to stay within their already established bounds of behavior..Change is not easily accepted by others even when that change is a normal reaction to something they have gone though or a reaction to a physical change in their chemistry.

We expect change from kids as they grow but if they don't start walking, or talking by a set time then it gets labeled. Would it not be better to not label them and just encourage and accept them as they are?

The problem with PTSD is that acting differently isn't just a bit of a shock to other people...it causes problems for the individual with it and well it can be problematic for other people to can be very hard not to get irritable and end up hurting peoples feelings and such with PTSD and flashbacks and or going into fight or flight mode isn't good for anyone involved or who has to see it. I mean a lot of what leads to the different behaviors is symptoms that are very painful to deal with for the individual..and its debilitating.

If it was just a simple change of behavior there would be no reason for it to be a disorder, but the changes mostly interfere with life in a negative way. Sure acceptance is important but I am not going to try to 'appreciate' the PTSD and see it as a cherished part of myself I mean I don't want it.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by Hellion

The problem with PTSD is that acting differently isn't just a bit of a shock to other people...it causes problems for the individual with it and well it can be problematic for other people to can be very hard not to get irritable and end up hurting peoples feelings and such with PTSD and flashbacks and or going into fight or flight mode isn't good for anyone involved or who has to see it. I mean a lot of what leads to the different behaviors is symptoms that are very painful to deal with for the individual..and its debilitating.

If it was just a simple change of behavior there would be no reason for it to be a disorder, but the changes mostly interfere with life in a negative way. Sure acceptance is important but I am not going to try to 'appreciate' the PTSD and see it as a cherished part of myself I mean I don't want it.

I know for myself that if my PTSD had not gotten labeled but accepted and less stigmatized, and I wasn't thrown into the hospital at every turn. I could have recovered much better rather than the response I did get which only made me feel more apart, different and unable to recover. Instead of being able go back to work and take part in life again.
It's hard for me to separate out what was the illness and what was the response to the illness, both were negative and caused problems with life. You are right it's not simple, nor just a change in behavior.

It has been my experience that if I am engaged in an interesting, productive form of creativity, or if I am feeling unusually inspired by certain life events, I don't require as much medication as I do when my life is out of balance with the scale tipping more towards isolation, loneliness, dysfunction, and lack of meaning. Lack of meaning is a biggie. My mind will still tend to overreact and spin into some dangerous places without any meds, however. And I always need to use therapeutic "tools" in order to keep a balance.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

I know for myself that if my PTSD had not gotten labeled but accepted and less stigmatized, and I wasn't thrown into the hospital at every turn. I could have recovered much better rather than the response I did get which only made me feel more apart, different and unable to recover. Instead of being able go back to work and take part in life again.
It's hard for me to separate out what was the illness and what was the response to the illness, both were negative and caused problems with life. You are right it's not simple, nor just a change in behavior.

But why can't it be labeled as PTSD as well as be less stigmatized, i just don't think the problem is naming things, but rather the stigma so I say the stigma needs to go but not the 'label' per say. I mean how else is the human mind supposed to make sense of things without having names for things and definitions of words and names of things? But the stigma part is an issue.

I also know some of my difficulties had to do with not having it recognized as PTSD until I pushed the issue with mental health professionals. I mean the fact I could not sit down and focus on reading a book after that and still can't hardly do that is pretty significant....I loved reading, also apparently according to other people there are things i forgot about the experience, I also was numb/dissassociated during the whole ordeal, but at the same time just wanted to get the hell out of there.

Hello,

Thanks for bringing this up, i've also been thinking the same, hm, well I guess to add to the great answers already...

Some Mental Health Disorders are defined by dysfunctions whether it is sensory (subjectively judged), Neuro (probably the most reliably judged), psychological (woah nelly subjective), Physiological (also x rayed?), They say Schizophrenia and Autism are entwined, and the Schizophrenia is a bi product of Autsim, apparently both proven Mental 'disorders'. I can believe that with Autism because it is seen as a difference from an early age, and Aspergers syndrome I wonder could be different in that respect, can it be developed? Synesthesia can be undetected like Aspergers for someone's entire life and Aspergers and Autism are seen to be bi products of Synesthesia.
So there's discussion on some of the major disorders/syndromes
How they differ from Depression, Bi polar - well those are seen to be products of Mood Disorders - also apparently proven if you can afford the posh x ray, as far as I know they are usually subjectively detected.
Hm let's see...PTSD, BPD, DID, erm....to me these sorts of abbreviated disorders containing a lot of symptoms could have been created to accommodate the broad symptoms, and to make them digestible for whoever is diagnosing the person.

This is all from what i've read and the last bit is just a little theory because although I have quite bad issues with my mental health, I still don't trust the DSM and would rather do my own research.

[spondiferous]

I was just having this discussion with someone last night. They mentioned that they have been very frustrated and irritable lately, and that they think it's probably because they're heading into an episode (this person has Bipolar II). I said, yeah, that's possible, but I think it probably has more to do with the fact that you're moving soon, you're starting school and having all kinds of issues with the school, student aid, and everything else; the heat here has been insane without any kind of a break; it doesn't necessarily all have to be about a "diagnosis".
I tried to go the diagnosis route. I thought it would be helpful. In some ways it was. It got me access to treatment. But then a funny thing started happening. People started only focusing on one of my diagnoses and were unable to hear a word I was saying. So I became a list of symptoms, not a person. I became an episode, not a person. I became a possible threat, not a person.
Is it the system? Probably. Not enough people working in mental health have any clue what it's like to live with it. It's definitely the stigma. And I think a lot of it is culture too. As the person who began this thread stated, different things come and go in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. I don't think it's as simple as any one thing. But what I do think is important, is self determination. When I feel disordered, I identify as having a disorder. When I don't, I don't. Mostly I am just getting to a place where I prefer to think of myself as a spiritual being having a human experience, one that is awkward and painful most times, and I also believe that my reactions and my perceptions have as much to do with my developmental environment as anything else.
It's all a part of the whole...

Originally Posted by spondiferous

When I feel disordered, I identify as having a disorder. When I don't, I don't.

Thanks I had no intention of looking at it that way, of course the word 'disorder' is important in this case, I agree, what you have mentioned will help me explain things to the doctor, thank you.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by Hellion

But why can't it be labeled as PTSD as well as be less stigmatized, i just don't think the problem is naming things, but rather the stigma so I say the stigma needs to go but not the 'label' per say. I mean how else is the human mind supposed to make sense of things without having names for things and definitions of words and names of things? But the stigma part is an issue.

I also know some of my difficulties had to do with not having it recognized as PTSD until I pushed the issue with mental health professionals. I mean the fact I could not sit down and focus on reading a book after that and still can't hardly do that is pretty significant....I loved reading, also apparently according to other people there are things i forgot about the experience, I also was numb/dissassociated during the whole ordeal, but at the same time just wanted to get the hell out of there.

Your right getting a handle(name) on whats happening does help. I'm just kind of prejudiced against the system. My symptoms were severe but the "help" I received ( and did not ask for) re- traumatized me. I some times have a knee jerk reaction to getting labeled.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

Your right getting a handle(name) on whats happening does help. I'm just kind of prejudiced against the system. My symptoms were severe but the "help" I received ( and did not ask for) re- traumatized me. I some times have a knee jerk reaction to getting labeled.

I do not like or trust the system, but I don't know how to survive homeless...my family cannot afford to support me financially so I am in a position I have to accept some help from the 'system' but its not because I trust it. I mean right now the therapy and depression meds seem useless, valium helps panic attacks/anxiety and SSI helps my financial situation some...but yeah I don't know.

I also worry about stigma or ending up in a bad situation, part of why it is hard to tell anyone if I feel suicidal because I want help but I am afraid I'll end up having when of those horrid psych ward senerios I've heard some people describe. Its a difficult position to be in I suppose.

[venusss]

I think calling it "disorder" is what contributes to the stigma. "Disorder" implies you should be able to get over stuff.... otherwise you have something horribly wrong with you... imho.

Hellion, did you try some of the "alternative" therapies, like EFT?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I think calling it "disorder" is what contributes to the stigma. "Disorder" implies you should be able to get over stuff.... otherwise you have something horribly wrong with you... imho.

Hellion, did you try some of the "alternative" therapies, like EFT?

I don't see why disorder implies you should be over to get over stuff, almost seems quite the contrary...I'd think the term disorder more implies disorder within the brain, like things within it not functioning properly...it just recognizes there being a problem that pertains to the brain/mind whatever. But there is no implication with the word disorder that its something someone should just get over...it just implies there being something wrong. I mean I have yet to see a definition of the word that implies its something one should just be able to get over.

Also not really sure of a lot of alternative therapies, aside from like herbal remedies that can help anxiety and what not, I suck at meditation and not sure what EFT is....also though medicaid does not cover alternative therapies so affording them could be an issue with my limited income.

[venusss]

I'd think the term disorder more implies disorder within the brain, like things within it not functioning properly...

exactly. Broken brain freak who cannot get over things. Non-disordered people get over **** easily, only the disordered make drama of it.

That is the implication of disorder for me.

EFT - emotional freedom technique. It works well for many. You can go to seminar and then do it home. As for herbals... just like medicines, they do nothing to trauma issues.

What is EFT - Emotional Freedom Techniques

it can be triggering in the beginning, but it's proven to work. Might be worth a try.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

exactly. Broken brain freak who cannot get over things. Non-disordered people get over **** easily, only the disordered make drama of it.

That is the implication of disorder for me.

EFT - emotional freedom technique. It works well for many. You can go to seminar and then do it home. As for herbals... just like medicines, they do nothing to trauma issues.

What is EFT - Emotional Freedom Techniques

it can be triggering in the beginning, but it's proven to work. Might be worth a try.

Suppose it would be worth looking into, but with how I have been feeling lately not sure I can really handle triggering stuff without negative consequences...was already sort of looking into EMDT(I think its called) though I am skeptical of that technique still.

As for herbals maybe they don't fix the issue, but they certainly do come in handy to relax me and feverfew is great for headaches...not just headaches though actually...I mean same thing with drugs really they can help provide some relief but as a rule they don't exactly 'fix' the issue you are using them for.

Also though I guess the way I see it if someone is perceived as having a 'broken' or disordered brain, why is that a reason to look down on them? To me I'd think that is reason to have some compassion and want to help or hope they are able to get help with issues they are having trouble facing on their own.

[venusss]

Also though I guess the way I see it if someone is perceived as having a 'broken' or disordered brain, why is that a reason to look down on them? To me I'd think that is reason to have some compassion and want to help or hope they are able to get help with issues they are having trouble facing on their own.

Well the medical model did good job in increasing stigma of MI. The whole "us versus them" thing.

I think compasion for people doesn't need some medical labels. You can feel for somebody who's plain troubled... without having to have a (pseudo)medical label for their troubledness...

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I think calling it "disorder" is what contributes to the stigma. "Disorder" implies you should be able to get over stuff.... otherwise you have something horribly wrong with you... imho.

Maybe this is just my way of making stuck labels work better for me, but I consider the label of mental "disorder" to refer to a person's behavior being out of social order, which, wrong or right, is really the reason for the label and behaviors being perceived as a problem, isn't it? So when I hear "disorder", I just hear "out of synch with a conjured construct", and indeed current constructs of social order have evolved in some rather unfortunate ways, which one need only turn on mere minutes of the news to be reminded of.

Also, as the terms are coined by the psychiatric industrial complex, as they define and own these constructs, I just consider the labels to be their "product", and it seems to me that we humans who don't as conveniently fit into their definitions of order can suffer as much from the effects of their constructs as we do any original personal distress.

I always liked this rant of George Carlin's about the way language is abused (an oldie but goodie, which if by some twist of fate you haven't seen, you must), which includes a reference to the evolution of the PTSD label from its original name of "shell shock" and accurately notes that all the humanity has been squeezed out of the words used at this point.

Some of my own observable behavior as a child could have easily had me labeled as having oppositional defiant disorder, but as disorder to what and whom? Living in a house with a pair of excellent contenders for the title of most destructive and subversive parents on the planet, wouldn't that make my defiance a matter of pure order? My relative sanity (and it is relative indeed) in the face of what I endured has been nothing short of a miracle, and perhaps deserves a label of its own. Amazing Survival Order? Life Shocks Miracle?

Not sure. I'm going to work on that though. Naming my own special orders of human sanity, instead of only my industrially named disorders.

[Hellion]

^I did like George Carlins rant about that..though I can sort of see why the term 'shell shock' is not entirely fitting in all cases since the disorder can come from various sorts of trauma not just running out of trenches trying to take cover in hole in the ground while having those rocket shell things fired at you not knowing if it will hit you or not....which is sort of what the original term references since I think it was recognized as a condition in WW1 or something. Though not sure PTSD really does a good job of describing the condition...or course I use that term since its what its known as right now.

[cool09]

An organic mental disorder is a clinical disorder when it meets the criteria in DSM-V (Diagnostic Standard Manual). Most disorders usually have to last a certain period of time to be considered a clinical disorder plus meet other criteria like not being associated with substance abuse.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by cool09

An organic mental disorder is a clinical disorder when it meets the criteria in DSM-V (Diagnostic Standard Manual). Most disorders usually have to last a certain period of time to be considered a clinical disorder plus meet other criteria like not being associated with substance abuse.

Of course. But who says the standards? DSM is VOTED IN.

Maybe this is just my way of making stuck labels work better for me, but I consider the label of mental "disorder" to refer to a person's behavior being out of social order, which, wrong or right, is really the reason for the label and behaviors being perceived as a problem, isn't it? So when I hear "disorder", I just hear "out of synch with a conjured construct", and indeed current constructs of social order have evolved in some rather unfortunate ways, which one need only turn on mere minutes of the news to be reminded of.

Indeed. I find this worrisome. Together with fact many MH advocates aren't even sufferers of these disorders, but they have family members who are affected... or they just want all crazies dopes up against their will.