Tell me why having a mental illness DOESN'T make one a bad person?

Not entirely. Some individuals experience relief as a result of the placebo-effect. I bet if you gave a depressed folk a sugar pill and claimed it was the most the potent AD they'd trick themselves into feeling better. I'm not a stubborn guy and I'm willing to admit that was a bit of a HURRDURRR contradiction on my behalf but what evidence can you show that psychiatric disorders are a medical disease? There is also the other side of the spectrum where certain properties of a medication can exacerbate symptoms and turn one even more suicidal than they were. I understand medication can be effective and an antidepressant given to a depressed person will somehow increase and regulate activity serotonin levels in the synaptic cleft. But isn't this in the end just speculation rather than sheer fact? The propensity of pdocs orchestrating certain campaigns to diagnose certain disorders, sometimes in children (bipolar as an example) is a reason why'd they portray it as a disease, to sell drugs.

Ah, "the meds work, hence it's biological" argument.

Apparently, I suffer serious caffeine and alcohol deficiency, since I function so much more once my morning coffee kicks in and booze makes me funnier, flirtier and less socially shy (although.......... getting involved in cause seems to solved that. Two months of trying to convince people each weekend, without ripping their heads off and bursting in tears when they are assholes.......... a brutal exposure therapy but it worked... does it mean political activism fixed my chemical imbalances???).

Zinco and didn't you complain not so long about how current med stopped working for you? If it's biological shouldn't it keep working? Or is your body plain building tolerance to some mind altering stuff?

(yes, mind altering is the key. There is lots of drugs that can make you feel temporarily betta. Some of them are FDA approved. None of them solve your situation. All of them have long term risks. So if something makes you feel different, it says nothing about balances or imbalances in your brain.)


I let go long time ago. And I never been a WASP, by mere ethnicity and politics. I heard Slavs weren't really considered white at some points of history.

However, I have been here on the boards long enough to see how people who un-accepted the illness model managed to (almost) recover and very much thrive.

The illness model is not scientific, mostly because there is no realiable test showing the causation. Please, don't link me to all those sciency, schmiency tests.... they don't show direct causation.... and they are still not reliable. So to me, they are as scientific as phrenology, one big hit too.

If aspirin stops headaches, does that mean that headaches are caused by lack of aspirin in the brain?

Every single process in the body is by nature a physical process, this includes thinking and MI. Every single thought starts as an electrochemical action. Which means that chemicals must have been generated somehow, what by magic? No, by a physical process. If something interferes with these chemicals to cause MI is it again magic? No, it is a physical process gone awry.

Simple, end of story.

Let's get back to OP's original question now.

Great thread! And some amazing answers.. I've kinda struggled with this issue a bit too, though I believe 'schizophrenia' to be a 'worse' diagnosis (stigma-wise, with regard to beliefs and cliches etc) than 'bipolar'. And yeah, I've been handed the 'diabetes' ditty too... (which I didn't really buy, they just seemed to want me on meds for life, though diabetes onset can be treatable with exercise and nutrition when early enough, at least for some people, it seems)

I've taken Abilify and it made me depressed, ha! How's that for an advertisment??
With a lower dose it's much better, but still... (the psychiatrist would just say 'you were depressed anyway')

As for the OP, these things have been 'engrained', the pop culture is full of prejudices and cliches... it's important to watch more positive films/documentaries and such too!

In Stephen Fry's documentary on bipolar, a doctor cured her bipolar with fish oil! Now would something that can be 'cured' with fish oil (at least it might work for some people) make someone be a 'bad' person? It depends if you've done 'bad' things while having the problems, but even then, did you do 'bad things' willingly and with intention? Things to consider...

This is true. Leaving aside the spiritual aspects of our nature which I believe we have, everything that happens in the body and brain is bio electro chemical. The laws of chemistry and physics prevail.

I am not really arguing for how great psyche meds are because they aren't. I would very much like to know why Fetzima is working and then doesn't and when I increase the dose it works. I have experience with all sorts of illegal drugs and this is totally different than those. I would not call it mood altering in the same sense. If someone has a headache and takes aspirin and it works obviously it changed something bio chemically. It doesn't mean you are aspirin deficient.

I am arguing that it is certainly possible, and there is a large body of scientific evidence to back this up, that some psychiatric disorders for some people have a genetic and biological basis even from birth. I can post all kinds of links to real science but if you think it is no better than phrenology what is the point. Your mind is closed to it. Is someone on the severe end of the autism spectrum who has had symptoms since birth a matter of life circumstances.

It is pretty well established that the brain continues to develop and wire itself up through the teens. The situations you encounter at a young age can have an enormous impact on how your brain wires and organizes itself. The older you get the more hard wired it becomes and the harder to change. That does not mean it is impossible to change. Environmental things can change it but it can be difficult. Work with stroke victims who actually have dead parts of their brain and have lost function and then through therapy an adjacent part of the brain gets remapped and takes over those lost functions. This was very well established in a famous experiment with primates. Neuroplasticity. This has led to huge advances in the treatment of stroke victims. It is not because they ignored biology but because they better understood it and developed therapies in accordance that this was possible. I witnessed it in my mother.

So I would say that to ignore biology, brain chemistry, brain development, genetics and so on, when it comes to mental illness is not a prudent course. That doesn't mean all manner of treatment has to be meds. They may discover many different ways to better treat it. CBT and meditation are two examples.

So to the OP's question. If you were born with a predisposition to it or it was a result of circumstances in life that affected development and affect how you function today, than NO it doesn't make you a bad person.

Having a Mental Illness doesn't make someone a bad person, in fact it is highly probable that most human beings will experience some form of MI, during their lifetime.

My mind not closed. I just seen your links and it's the same stuff all over and over again. I could post a counter link to each of your links and we could just wage a link war. I don't have time for that.

For me all the yakking about biology ("everything is biochemical") and diabetes comparisions.... I don't know....it seems like it is marginalizing us or emotionally manipulating us into submission to "them". DO NOT LIKE.

Zinco, the point I'm trying to make here about it not being a physical disease is that no mental illness is diagnosed or detected by doing brain scans, blood tests and lab tests. Sure, a blood test may indicate something correlating with depression but no one gets a blood test done then comes out with a diagnosis of depression.

The legal and medical community treat it as a disease, so there wouldn't be a reason why they wouldn't portray it as a disease - it does not however meet the scientific criterion for disease. Mental illness is identifiable by certain behaviors, not through the examination of cell function, organ and tissue... and disease is a derangement of cell function, organ and tissue.

Neurologists study the abnormalities of the brain and nervous system, never for a suicide.

I think there's a ton they still don't know. I'm willing to bet there are indications in the brain for psychosis, buy they just don't know them yet.

Only the most ignorant and uninformed people I know lean towards the belief that it is shameful or somehow indicative of a "lack of character" to develop a mental illness. This thinking is antiquated, terribly outdated, and is not helpful in the least! And yet, there are people out there who cling to it----unbelievable.

And yes, a relative, mind you, a RELATIVE!!, tried to lay this very head trip on me. What a load of fetid manure her thinking is. She only did it to make me feel bad, which is something she's been actively trying to do for years, anyway.

There was nothing in my life or in my lifestyle which should have led me to feel like this. I developed depression when I was in the prime of my life---I was very outdoorsy, very very healthy, and had everything to live for. So, I know there is nothing I should feel shame about---and that nothing I did, not my attitude to life, or my thinking, brought it on.

I bear no responsibility for developing this illness, and never will.

However, the argument over whether it is a purely biological function or is brought on by experiences and trauma will hover over us all for years to come. But picking sides in this does not help. It only causes distress and confusion.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough, There's not much point in debating something that, right now, cannot be measured or quantifiably known.

We all have to get the best information we possibly can, and try our best to overcome as much negative thinking as possible---and pursue our own better health as aggressively as we are able. THAT is all we can do, each and every one of us.

Shame for becoming ill should have nothing to do with it. It is ridiculous to allege that anyone would SEEK to feel like this, lose their hopes, their careers, their future and X number of years, and possibly their lives!, to feeling this way. It just doesn't work like that. No one would seek this.

Leave the misguided and outmoded notions of shame and guilt and blame at the door. You'll be very very relieved when you do that.

By saying it's genetic ( it's in your genes and you can't do anything about it) these people are mentally putting themselves in a hopeless position. Drugs have only existed fairly recently, humans managed to deal with these emotional problems in the past. A lot of the depression is because of the stress of modern life as well as poor diet. People are so desperate to get their next fix of happy pills but what is their diet like? I suspect the majority of people don't do their research into healthy eating. Eating healthy is more important then any drug.

I take your point and you are correct. Diagnosis is based on the DSM and symptoms. There is however a growing body of evidence that for some disorders for at least some people genetics, abnormal cell function, abnormal communication between neural pathways, shrinkage of hippocampus and other areas, and receptors and monoamines play a very large role.

Neurology and psychiatry is marrying up. To say suicide is not studied in such a way is not true. here is one. Whether is means anything I do not know but it is being studied.
https://bbrfoundation.org/brain-matt...for-predicting

I readily admit that way more is unknown than known but it is advancing. The brain is very hard tissue to study.

Venus I am sure we could link and counter link all day on antidepressants. The studies are all over the place. I doubt you could counter family hereditary studies, twin studies, new studies on genetic markers. Brain imaging studies.....If I post a brain imaging study you will just say pretty pictures don't mean squat.

To be totally honest my main interest in it comes from my personal family history of rampant alcoholism and depression and my personal experience with 20 years of depression treatment. I believe in my case there are deep genetic biological factors as core cause. This is anecdotal and unscientific and I can't make general statements based on that but I believe it is true for many people and some disorders.

...and I'll add, choosing "sides" in the debate over whether it's better to seek holistic approaches or medicinal approaches to healing ALSO only further confuses people, especially newbies.

EVERYONE has to find their OWN best way of resolving this question and its causes and treatments, FOR THEMSELVES.

And that mostly involves getting as much up-to-date information as you can, and tailoring your treatments to meet your needs.

And never, never discount the advice of trained medical professionals. The best and most qualified people will discuss all of the options with you.

Wishing everyone here healing and peace for their weary minds....

MG

Saying it is genetic does not mean you are doomed. There is such a thing as epi genetics where what you do changes how genes express themselves and biology. There is also neuro plasticity and neurotrophic factors where new dendrites grow and form new connections.
Let's say that in my case it was shown that the primary factor was inherited genetics. That would just be what is not a way of looking at it. I may focus on meditation, mindfulness, CBT, and medication as a treatment since it deals with the here and now in an attempt to change brain function.
Let's say I was sexually and physically abused as a kid and had PTSD and depression and no genetic factor. The treatment approach might be very different and I would do trauma work with a therapist maybe with meds maybe without.

And who is "them"? why is it us against them. The mental health clinic I go to has a motto of "Patient Centered Recovery" you are strongly expected to be an active participant in your recovery and treatment and they do take a holistic approach. I strongly believe in a holistic approach. It was the same way all the years I was at Kaiser of Northern California.

I believe more study and understanding of all types leads to better solutions.

Many things are genetic and aren't illness though.

Pwetty brains don't tell much about correlation versus causation. Being depressed could pretty much result in your brain looking different not vice versa (I mean, brains of druggiest look different. Brains of people who meditate look different........... and it's all a result, not a causation, HA).

Those that are against us, eh. Some even use masterly manipulated "scientific" studies to proof we are something lesser.

I was always said you are bad.

Edit - deleted- to sarcastic.

Plus I promised myself I would not get into these debates. That is soooooo hard for me. I have done better though.

This has a major influence on how you think about yourself, if it took place especially in childhood. It is hard to think the people who told you this are wrong, rather than believe that what they said is right.

But they were wrong.

No. That all brain function is physical processes does not mean that experience has no influence. Experience changes brain function.

Plus, if I started to think of myself as mere broken chemical factory......... I'd be dead for long time now.

Not everything is about chemical reaction. If you appreciate art, if you experience a meaningful friend, when you do something altruistic....... it's more than a chemical reaction and result thereof. Has to be.

Hi everyone. Thank you for the responses. I'm sorry I did the cut and run thing here, I avoid things I fear, and it feared that I started too much controversy. Or was too insulting or whatever.

But there are a lot of good points here.

I want to reiterate something I've learned. None of us with MH issues are bad - I see a hell of a lot more character in those of us who struggle to have good lives than I see in a. Lot of the public. It's the few who abuse the system for disability benefits or can't control violent tendencies who make the public fear MH issues and promote continued stigma. Most of us are pretty damned commendable actually.

Acceptance is Extremely hard for me to find.

Yes. Quickly and efficiently.

Being a good or bad person is a judgment call based on an individual's self esteem and perception of self and others. So, you may believe you are a bad person because you have a mental illness and I may not believe you are a bad person because you have a mental illness. Who is right? I judge other people good/bad but I think my judgment can only be an opinion, not a "fact" because I am not that person I am judging.

I believe what I want to believe. I want to be a good person so I do my best to act like I believe a good person acts. If I make a mistake, that does not make me a bad person, one incident does not change my nature or what it is I am trying for. If other people tell me I can/cannot do something am/am not "good", etc., that's their opinion and I may consider it (if I know and trust them and would like their opinion) but I have my own life and agenda and what I'm doing and since I'm the only one living in here. . .

You know, I think the diabetes thing is redundant, but the point (I think) of saying it is that just like having diabetes doesn't make you a bad person, having a mental illness doesn't make you a bad person.

So yeah. I buy that comparison for that reason.

Just like any illness, however, whether physical or spiritual, there are things in our environment that can make it worse or better. There are things that we do that can make us feel better or worse.

We are all just human beings. We have to accept our limitations and embrace our superpowers.