Things I like about the USA

Pretty hot words there. I'll bow out now before I end up getting this thread posted. One last word, though.....whatever reason you are here, at least you are allowed here and allowed to express your thoughts of how much you dislike our country, with no fear of retribution....something about a constitution. At least you are allowed to learn, to wander free, don't see militia on the streets. At least you are allowed to judge our country by 5% of people. God Bless America. I'm done.

i'm sorry, that was a rant. but it was a little awkward, how the thread turned out (but then how were people supposed to know?)

i am grateful that i have the opportunity to be here for a time. part of it was about my seeing whether i would try and hit the job market here. i've decided... i don't. because... mostly because of the things people say about why i should hit the job market here. the very things that are supposed to be appealing aren't things that i value (and i find the slogans fairly meaningless, i have to say). in terms of my day to day life... fairly similar (though missing my social supports a lot). but when people start talking about politics or international policy or whatever... when people start talking about why the USA is meant to be the greatest country in the world... it is those kinds of things that i don't want to come to identify with. where political terms 'liberal' etc apply to ECONOMIC policy rather than SOCIAL policy. tells you what the values are... i know that there is diversity here.... i just... i dunno...

it does feel like a culture shock. i just... there is something about the pride vs humility thing that gets to me. i know it isn't everyone... but it is fairly prevalent. and i talk to people about why they aren't planning on hitting any other job market... and the values once again. mine are simply... different. once you get away from the catch phrases and get down to where the rubber hits the road with respect to practical implimentation and the like... my values are different. and... yeah... i've realized i'm an australasian. not sure how i'd find canada or the uk or europe more generally... but i think i'm an australasian. australia was enough of a move for me (i find some things hard there, too). but here... feels like a different world...

>, at least you are allowed here and allowed to express your thoughts of how much you dislike our country, with no fear of retribution....something about a constitution. At least you are allowed to learn, to wander free, don't see militia on the streets. At least you are allowed to judge our country by 5% of people. God Bless America. I'm done.

but those apply to candada and england and scotland and whales and ireland and new zealand and australia and france and germany and norway and sweden and...

MOST OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD

((Kim))) i hope the hug is ok?

i dont blame you for having feelings and thoughts, and its not wrong to bring them into the open for discussion.... its healthy and its always healthiest with a spirit of caring... everyone on the site cares, or we wouldnt be here.. Doc wouldnt have made this site for us if he didnt care...

we all put up with a lot of stuff trying to understand our place, ourself, our world... we use a lot of energy and we become fatigued, tired and dont know where to turn...

the spirit of renewal catches our fall... all the world is a bubble of beauty, the cries within are cries for home and connection and caring to each other... our wails and screams are the sounds of our disconnections... we can connect, thanks to scientists, students, faith healers, the spirit for goodness within us each... our individual want for wholesomeness brings us to an area to share, learn and grow... and we are accomplishing it....

i say kudoes for all of us..

Absolutely they do, it's just one more thing about being here that I like. Rant away, honey, it's your thread. If you started a "things I dislike about the USA" you'd probably get as much if not more. There are times I get so fed up with stuff that goes on here, but then I think, it's home. Just like Australia is home to you. We speak relatively the same language, with a few variances, but it's not home to me. Heck, even when I lived in Hawaii it didn't seem like the States. I missed K-mart!! And Taco Bell. You know, it's funny....it's like when you're married and you're mad at your mom and you rant and rave, then your spouse speaks up and says, "yeah, she's crazy." All of a sudden you go, "hey! that's my mom, you can't talk about her like that," even though you just were! This also isn't a real good time to be looking at the job market here.

Not all people living in the US agree with all attitudes often expressed by "leaders" here. Witness the most recent election.

yeah. there are little things that i miss (cheap fresh fruit and vegetables, most notably) but there are little things that i like here (cheap yummy doughnuts, pizza, mexican food, coke etc).

it is kinda important to separate the people in a country from the policy of the country and the like and i know that there is a diversity here with respect to what policy different individuals like and so on... and there are some really interesting liberal (in my sense which you guys would probably call socialist) thinkers here...

but homesick in many respects, yeah. i really do wish we had cheaper telecommunications / internet access, though. i'm really quite jealous of that. guess when you are on an island / continent so far away telecommunications to the rest of the world are going to be expensive.

i guess the thing is that i'm not deciding between whether i'm going to live in the USA compared to living in some third world or developing nation somewhere... my choices are restricted to countries where there are jobs for english speaking analytic philosophers. so... USA, Australia, Canada, UK, Europe (though I'll admit the language barrier concerns me even when they teach in English) and so on. So 'freedom liberty and justice' aren't really considerations that come to bear.

The USA job market is the biggest job market in the world for a field where over half the PhD's never get a job in the field. So... Deciding not to hit it is a significant decision. There are other factors that come into play (such as having to hang around for about 1 month for fly out interviews, buying a suit for the eastern division conference etc etc)... But... I'm not sure how happy I'd be living here... I guess my day to day would be okay... I guess... I don't know... I miss Australia. I think I want an apartment on Pott's point... But I haven't been to Queensland yet... Catching the ferry to work could be appealling...

The word "socialist" does not offend me. But then, I am weird...

lol patchy.

yeah... i guess it might depend on what one means by 'socialist'. one of the things that i like about new zealand is the attempt to have an extensive social welfare system such that everyone gets enough money to meet basic needs of rent, food, clothes etc. if all people are equal then you would expect that if there are the resources to effect this then this should be a priority. there are people who fall through the gaps (people under 16 who don't find a good foster home so prefer to live on the streets, people who are unmonitored who aren't able to organize to spend the money appropriately so who end up on the streets, people who voluntarily leave their employment for the first 6 months etc) but i like the general spirit of that. i like the general spirit of a public health service (so health insurance is a luxury rather than a necessity) and i like the general spirit of a good public schooling system (so private schools are a luxury generally for the religiously affiliated rather than close to a necessity) etc.

but... it it true that bureaucracy can get out of hand... i think there are something like five managers for every doctor in the public health system and there is wastage of public resources (e.g., social welfare people organizing unnecessary conference / workshops in Fiji). sigh.

the last election in nz swung from labor government (where they are fairly affiliated with the green party for environmental issues and the maori party for honoring treaty obligations etc) to a national government (where they are fairly interested in economics and have sometimes been led to say such things as 'we stand for new zealanders' where there definition of a new zealander is someone who is working). i guess the economic situation has got people scared... and there are people in new zealand who think that we need to be more like australia / the usa rather than labors looking to sweden etc with respect to social welfare and environmental policy...

still... labor was getting a bit complacent with respect to making good use of the funds... it scares me a little what will happen with social welfare and there is talk of privatizing the health sector :-( hopefully the changes won't be too substantive and it will give labor a much needed shake-up... it will be interesting to see how obama works out... i'm really happy about that (as are the world polls)... still... i can't see healthcare for all social welfare for all or redistributive taxation on the cards... i dunno... retreating to a corner of the world doesn't make the issues go away, i guess. avoiding the ghettos is avoiding the ghettos whether you retreat to american suburbia or australian suburbia... if philosophy doesn't work out... i'm going to retrain in something scientific and helpful. i swear...

i'm just... not sure about this 'freedom' thing especially when it results in the big companies (e.g., starbucks, macdonalds) not giving the little companies (e.g., the italian guy who has been making latte's for 20 years) a chance. the 'freedom' results in loss of freedom / option as the little guy goes out of business and it becomes increasingly hard to find anything other than starbucks. i get the whole 'let the market decide' thing, and i think that there is of course a role for that, but i also think that individuals tend to think individualistically and often don't understand the more global consequences of their decisions... and i also think that given the role of advertising in fairly much determining consumer decisions unregulated advertising is of course going to result in the bigger companies prospering while the little guys who can't afford to launch such a massive scale advertising campaign go under. consumer 'decision' that is based on advertising isn't much of a 'decision' or an 'expression of freedom' at all...

the food situation concerns me greatly. it is just astounding to me how cheap certain things are (hormone fed chicken, heavily processed food with very little nutritional value) and how expensive certain other things are (organic fresh produce). eating healthy food seems to be a luxury for the rich and given the distribution of wealth here that is something that is very concerning. when bottled water is about three times the price of coke that is disturbing. i guess the thought is that if you implement something along the lines of a junk food tax (to even out the price differential between healthy and unhealthy food) then poor people will starve... let the market decide even if the market is killing people... :-(

(((Kim))) Are you fingers hoarse?

I share many of your views. I was unaware of our past dealings with New Zealand.

I was raised to believe that America is the greatest country in the world and the envy of all other nations.

When I was in Finland as a young teenager, my cousin introduced me to her friend who spoke English. She asked me where I was from, so I puffed up and proudly stated "America" (oh, how I wanted to go home). She responded "North, South, or Central?" When I answered North America, she asked "Canada, United States or Mexico?" By then I was a little deflated, so I answered United States." She responded by rolling her eyes, lol. I tried my best to find something about my country that was better than hers, but I couldn't.

I learned that day what can happen when you thump your chest. It's like a game of "King of the Hill." It's an open invitation for an attack.

You are not the only one bothered by catch phrases. IMO, the only people who are completely "free" are those homeless folks who no longer beg for money or food. Freedom of speech is nice, but it's only nice when someone actually listens and responds favorably. Carrying a sign is meaningless if no one sees the sign.

I'm also disturbed by all the mass consumption and thoughtlessness. I was taught to take only what I need and can afford. I was taught to think carefully and to consider and accept all consequences before taking what I want. I was taught to never take anything that does not belong to me and to always share what I have.

Thanks to all the marketing, we are constantly encouraged to take all we can get - even if it's not good for us, even if it harms someone else. We are taught to think only of ourselves. We are taught to think of others only when it can benefit us.

However, I believe we have been humbled a bit. I continue to have hope with our new administration. Hopefully, someday soon we will no longer be viewed as know-it-alls and braggarts.

It is such a country of extremes... From the hollywood mansions to the deepest ghettos. From academic thinkers with revolutionary views on animal rights and evolution by natural selection and international policy, to those who campaign for creationism to be taught in schools, for the right to carry a firearm (no matter how many innocents are 'collateral damage' of that), and the view that we have no obligation to other countries (or to the UN). Such extremes...

> I was raised to believe that America is the greatest country in the world and the envy of all other nations.

Yeah. And that is the thing that I find so unpalatable. Not because we are raised to think that ours is the greatest country in the world and the envy of all other nations but because... There is simply a diversity. Many different ways to live a valuable and valued life. Some situations (within ones country and outside ones country) that are more or less fortunate... But not so much better or worse unless in relation to one respect or another...

> I'm also disturbed by all the mass consumption and thoughtlessness. I was taught to take only what I need and can afford. I was taught to think carefully and to consider and accept all consequences before taking what I want. I was taught to never take anything that does not belong to me and to always share what I have.

These are typically values of indigenous peoples. We have much to learn from them, I think.

> Thanks to all the marketing, we are constantly encouraged to take all we can get - even if it's not good for us, even if it harms someone else. We are taught to think only of ourselves. We are taught to think of others only when it can benefit us.

Yeah. I think that is true. Australia is more like that than New Zealand. The USA even more so. As the market gets 'freer' this tends to be the result... That is one of the things that I found hard about Australia (along with their policy on indigenous peoples and their obligations to them). Consumerism... It is killing the world. The pacific oceans are rising and many pacific island communities are going to be displaced. They will need to evacuate their islands as the seas rise (they are rising we can measure their effects and see where villages are needing to relocate). The hole in the ozone layer is resulting in new zealand having the highest skin cancer rate in the world. We can measure the ozone layer and measure the effects on the skin and this is so. We know that human activities and emissions have a causal influence in making these things worse (no matter how much they fluctuate independently of us - we can isolate our emissions and their effects on things like ozone in the lab to know that this is so). And still... People go around saying that global warming is a myth and our actions in our environment don't have a detrimental impact on it. Don't the people in LA just need to look up to see the effects of emissions? And still... People walk around thinking that it is their right to produce so much waste on the useless products they brought on a whim and it is their right to produce so much in the way of emissions. They don't see how it is killing the world and thereby limiting the freedoms of OTHER people (such as those who contract skin cancer or those who need to relocate from their island).

Australia hasn't ratified the Kyoto protocol (with respect to making the necessary changes with emissions etc) because the thought is that the effects on the economy would be disastrous. Australia is very rich in natural resources (hence its bargaining power with the USA). Coal. Nuclear material.. But with respect to emissions, most notably: Coal. In a country that is a natural candidate for solar power... As a country... Not a lot is happening with respect to making this move. The public say 'reduce fuel consumption! Reduce emissions' in one breath and 'raising fuel prices boo! we want government subsidies on fuel!' in the other. Not a lot is being invested in boosting public transportation to make it convenient. The US... Tends to go 'but we are nothing - India is worse than us! China is worse than us!' Not much of a world leader... New Zealand only gets to be so virtuous because of its unique geographical and population demographic. I don't kid myself that if we were in the geographical or population position of Australia or the US we would do different. But still, it makes me feel sad.

> However, I believe we have been humbled a bit. I continue to have hope with our new administration. Hopefully, someday soon we will no longer be viewed as know-it-alls and braggarts.

Not all... But some things are hard to take, yes. How many people in the US don't aspire to be one of the richest people in the USA? How many don't aspire to have a huge house, a huge car, to send their children to the best private schools, to live in that exclusive suburban neighborhood, to have money to support that lifestyle in retirement? I guess it is hard to comprehend that there might be people in the world who see how sad many of those people tend to be and see the consequences of that lifestyle (the workers needed to support that) and flinch. South Africa is an extreme example, to be sure, but what is the use of such wealth when so much of it needs to be invested in security to maintain ones personal safety? Communities can be constructed to keep unsavories out - but how is that freedom? And how is that equality? And how is that just? We don't choose who we are born to (the drug using person in the ghetto, the president of the united states, parents who are willing and able to invest in education and health, alien workers who work very hard but struggle to make ends meet living in threat of deportation...) It is hard...

.. all those things we do because of fear. we have not learned how to live together and to value life, so we devalue it and define it with dollar signs.

one thing that amazes me about the US is that we have millions of people, mostly educated and some very educated, and some very creative... yet our 'entertainment' consists of so much violence and death (and women victims so often). It amazes me that with all the talent to draw from, this is what we get.. CSI ad nauseum, NCIS, Law and Order, Cold Case, an on and on. Of course when we aren't killing each other or pretending to.. we are competing to the hilt. lol. We even compete in cooking for crying out loud.

I love quiet and thoughtful, calm and intelligent, kind and curious. It can be hard to find here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts kim. I had wanted to ask you what you were missing to get a better idea of what it's like where you come from.

It did not used to be that way all the time. Some of the comedy shows in the "Golden Years of Television" were hilarious (to me): Sid Caesar, Jack Benny, etc. Things have changed. Maybe they can change again.

There are few things I can promise....

That it will change again is one...

Lenny

thanks guys. yeah, i think there seems to be a general spirit of optimism after the election :-) things are changing...

i, too have a problem with SVU in particular... taps into victimization / rescuer fantasies... i think that is what explains it popularity...

the simpsons are just brilliant. i haven't seen the last few seasons (we are a few seasons behind in the southern hemisphere) but that really is a brilliant show... i remember the controversy it generated when i was a kid. some people felt it was too violent... but the social commentary was just brilliant... and just kind of exposing things and refraining from moralizing. very refreshing indeed. and a great blend of slapstick humor and decent plot / social commentary...

there are lots of things to like about the USA. and there is diversity here in attitudes and values and the like. there is in australia and new zealand etc too... i kinda think that if i had someone elses environmental history and their genes i would basically be them. say the things they say and think the things they think.. so... people aren't that different really in some respects...

i just had a hard time here with a particular group of people... and it took me a while to see that i simply don't fit in with them. that made things harder for me. took me a while to see that there are many more people here (in the rest of the department, the rest of the city etc) who aren't like them and who don't do what they do and who don't value what they value. tis hard not fitting in, though. but now... i'm doing alright. found friendship in (what i would think would be) the most unlikely of places... couple of mormons from utah lol. not representative... evolutionary biology / genetics background... never have a bad word to say about anybody. i think... that is something that i've discovered... i value above all else in a friendship. can tolerate a lot really... so long as people appreciate the hurt generated from that...

i'm particularly sensitive i know... but people *****ing about me... just makes me want to curl up and die.

This has been an interesting discussion. I think though it would help to have an understanding about what we mean when we talk about "Socialist" or "Capitalist" as far as economic philosophies go. Most people actually misunderstand these systems.

Socialism: Socialism by definition is an economic system in which a central agent ( in most cases "The State") controls all comercial transactions. All business is nationalized and all revenue is sent to the State coffers. The State then distributes the revenue to the citizens as it sees fits. Under such a system, everyone is a government employee and is quaranteed an income. Since everyone in this arrangement is guaranteed money and is limited to that they can earn, there is almost no incentive to be creative or work harder than your fellow person. This runs against the grain of human nature, so this system must always be strictly enforced through the mechanism of violence and the threat thereof. Hence every country that has pursued this model ends up being a dictatorship. Examples: Cuba, North Korea.

Capitalism: When people talk about a capitalist economy in derisive manner, they are usually refering to what is commonly known as Laisez-Faire, or complete free market system. In such an arrangement all but a very few functions are fully privatized and needs are met with a fee for service arrangement. No society in exisitance has ever acheived this arrangement either, the closest perhaps, was Hong Kong, pre chinese control.

Welfare Capitalism, or Welfare State: This is an arrangement that generally has free markets, but is regulated over by the political establishment. Also many services are paid for through taxation. The US, Western Europe, Japan, Austrailia New Zealand are varying degrees of Welfare States. Every welfare state has a Democratically elected government.

Communism: In this arrangement individuals do not exist as individuals. All property is collectively owned. All persons are pre assigned a role at birth. In this system all people are considered the property of the collective and are used (and disposed of) as the collective sees fit. No country has ever pulled this off though several have tried. The closest thing to this you see is an ant colony, or an alien race from the Sci-Fi show Star Trek, known as "The Borg"

I thought this might help things along with anyone reading through this thread.

TJ

I'm glad to hear you found friendship with people who share your values. I like that you know yourself well in that respect and you didn't just settle, you searched so you could have kind people in your life.

I love the Simpsons. I was criticised for allowing my son, now 30, watch the show when he was young. In fact, I didn't like the show but thought it was okay for him. He kept telling me I ought to watch it, it's really funny. I would hear him bellly laugh and so I started watching it. It became something we enjoyed together for many years. I have favorite episodes or scenes that make me laugh just thinking of them. The one where Homer was injured trying to jump a canyon on Bart's bike..he ends up in the canyon, a rescue helicopter lifts him out on a litter, repeatedly bumping him against the side of the canyon.. finally out, he's loaded into a ambulance.. except he isn't pushed in all the way so when they close the doors they smack his head...the ambulance blares the siren and speeds off, slamming immediately into a tree that is 1 foot away.. the impact makes the doors open, and out rolls Homer on the stretcher and there he goes...right back over the edge of the canyon to where he started.

And the one where he got his car '' booted '' in NYC is a favorite too.

I like to read the sign out in front of the church, or the store names and advertisements. They can be hilarious.

And monkeys. Homer and monkeys. Too funny and the monkey always comes out looking better. Evolution gone haywire.

And if the government is elected by its citizens?

This may be a tendency or problem, but I do not see that it is necessarily inherent. You mean people cannot be creative just because it rewards them in ways other than monetarily? What about Wikipedia and other examples of open software?

Again, this seems to be one particular take on the subject. "All persons are pre assigned a role at birth." ?? Even Soviet Russia did not do this. I think you are confusing dictatorship, the need of some persons to control everything (such as some parents) with Communism.

i'm not at all sure about those definitions... that is part of the problem with politics... so many 'catch phrases' like democrat and terrorist and socialist and communist and anarchist and freedom liberty and justice and family values where people use terms in different ways and basically talk past one another... i'm not sure that there are definitions that would be accepted by most...

i wish people could just say what they mean / believe without them but it is hard...

I'd just like to insert a gentle reminder that our responses should limit the political discussion, as well as remain within all the guidelines for the site.

While I appreciate the most are doing that, I can see the topic going to different places as well...knowing that happens in the flow of lengthy discussions.

Let's please remember that the political discussion is not a place that a thread can publicly go, and if we have any comments that wouldn't be limited per the guidelines, please place them in PM.

I appreciate it, as well as everyone's thoughtful responses here.

KD