[Maven]

This question and discussion is mostly for USA residents, but others are welcome to join in. The reason it's for USA residents is because we're supposed to live by "Innocent until proven guilty," even though it doesn't always work out that way.

Question: Do you think the mentally ill should be presumed innocent until proven guilty, since some mentally ill persons are violent, like all Americans are supposed to be, or do you think we should be checked out, background checked, etc., before given certain rights (which aren't really given; rather, we are born with these rights), privileges, accesses, etc.? Examples might include job hiring, gun ownership, acquiring an apartment or home, and entrance into a business or facility, but are certainly not limited to these. In other words, are we equal as Americans or not?

And, does it make a difference if there are "normal" Americans who are also violent? Should be background check and investigate all Americans, because of what they might do?

I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[Shangrala]

In my opinion...Anymore, even though it is our right as an American citizen, I don't think it's "Innocent until proven guilty", but rather the other way around.

It seems to me that the value of our rights have succumbed to the value of the almighty dollar. Although I'm certain it has always been this way but in such small instances that it was just never recognized, (not to mention that if recognized the difficulty and amount of effort (money) required to fight against it). However, today it is quite apparent everywhere and is becoming more obvious, as well as almost impossible to oppose.

Our judicial system is highly corrupt and has taken a blind eye to our rights for many reasons, it seems. And it is usually always the poorly funded who are the targets to carry the cross of this injustice.
The measure of success to proving our innocence seems to be influenced on either who you know (with influencial status), or how much money you have to either buy your way out or literally spend on invensting for the proving of your innocence.

The rich and famous literally get away with murder as well as with other serious federal offenses, while the modest to poor incomed persons are the ones who must carry the burden to provide for our "fair" system's finances.

And, God help those who have any mental disorders (regardless of severity), on top of a modest to low income. It seems that only labels them as an even easier target as their condition would only make them "appear" to be all the more suspicious, therefore the more likely to take the fall.
The same applies to the race of the individual, and in certain cases, the gender of the person, as well.
Justice just doesn't seem to exist anymore. Whatever seems to work in the favor of the system, that is the direction it will go. It's just a matter of how much you can, (or are willing to) pay to fight your way out of an unjust circumstance.

There was a time when I truly believed in our judicial system. I had faith that the truth would always prevail. However, I have personally witnessed too many crimes commited by our own jusdical system to maintain that faith any longer.

At 18, my oldest son was arrested and convicted for the murder of an 8 month old baby girl (the baby's mother was an acquaintance of the family then).
Upon arrest of suspicion (simply on means of association to the company of the baby's mother), my son was interrogated by the local police department for nearly 9 hours straight until they pressured a testimony out of him to their liking.
~Police tampered with the audio & video of said "confession", which did not hold in court.
~My son was held in the county jail for 6 years following his arrest without a conviction made.
~No investigation was made. The mother of the child was in and out of jail years prior for various federal offenses.
~The baby had a medical history of enduring physical abuse. That medical file vanished at the time of the hearing of case.
~Mother of baby had the baby's body immediately cremated to (obviously) destroy physical evidence which could be used against her. Then she had regular funeral services arranged for the burial of ashes.
~Several character witnesses were never questioned. Including the directly related witness who volenteered to testify on behalf of our son.
~My husband and I were the last two to be with the baby before the peremidics responded to our 911 emergency call, yet we weren't even suspects.
~The baby died in the hospital a day following the emergency call. The mother of the baby was out on her regular routine social calls not 4 hours after the loss of the baby. No moarning whatsoever.
~Mother was not interrogated or investigated whatsoever.
~Her uncle was the Cordinal of a San Francisco Catholic Church and had direct political involvement with the San Francisco Police Department. (hense, the influence in this particular case).

The list continues. However, case has long since been closed. A plea bargain was offered to my son (by his third court appointed attorney who had absolutely no experience in murder cases). He was improperly represented. But because he was pressured into choosing the plea bargain, any rights for reinvestigation of the case is immediately dismissed.
The result of the case was my son had been sentenced to 15 years to life with possibility of parole upon his first 15 years. However, the years spent in jail reflected the sentence, which expidited his first parole hearing by 6 years, which of course he was denied. He was denied his second. And next year he will be facing his third hearing. I've pretty much lost faith that he will be granted it then either.
My son will turn 30 this June. His life was ripped away from him due to our "justice" system.
(My brother fell victim to our system as well, but for other reasons. He, too is doomed to the remainder of his years behind bars due to the fact that he didnt have proper council at the time he needed it most).

I apologize for my rant. I didn't intend for it to be so extensive. I guess this subject merely struck a very sensitive nerve.
I apreciate your enduring....lol....(I do have a tendancy to babble..soz).

Shangrala

[moodyblu]

Originally Posted by Shangrala

In my opinion...Anymore, even though it is our right as an American citizen, I don't think it's "Innocent until proven guilty", but rather the other way around.

It seems to me that the value of our rights have succumbed to the value of the almighty dollar. Although I'm certain it has always been this way but in such small instances that it was just never recognized, (not to mention that if recognized the difficulty and amount of effort (money) required to fight against it). However, today it is quite apparent everywhere and is becoming more obvious, as well as almost impossible to oppose.

Our judicial system is highly corrupt and has taken a blind eye to our rights for many reasons, it seems. And it is usually always the poorly funded who are the targets to carry the cross of this injustice.
The measure of success to proving our innocence seems to be influenced on either who you know (with influencial status), or how much money you have to either buy your way out or literally spend on invensting for the proving of your innocence.

The rich and famous literally get away with murder as well as with other serious federal offenses, while the modest to poor incomed persons are the ones who must carry the burden to provide for our "fair" system's finances.

And, God help those who have any mental disorders (regardless of severity), on top of a modest to low income. It seems that only labels them as an even easier target as their condition would only make them "appear" to be all the more suspicious, therefore the more likely to take the fall.
The same applies to the race of the individual, and in certain cases, the gender of the person, as well.
Justice just doesn't seem to exist anymore. Whatever seems to work in the favor of the system, that is the direction it will go. It's just a matter of how much you can, (or are willing to) pay to fight your way out of an unjust circumstance.

There was a time when I truly believed in our judicial system. I had faith that the truth would always prevail. However, I have personally witnessed too many crimes commited by our own jusdical system to maintain that faith any longer.

At 18, my oldest son was arrested and convicted for the murder of an 8 month old baby girl (the baby's mother was an acquaintance of the family then).
Upon arrest of suspicion (simply on means of association to the company of the baby's mother), my son was interrogated by the local police department for nearly 9 hours straight until they pressured a testimony out of him to their liking.
~Police tampered with the audio & video of said "confession", which did not hold in court.
~My son was held in the county jail for 6 years following his arrest without a conviction made.
~No investigation was made. The mother of the child was in and out of jail years prior for various federal offenses.
~The baby had a medical history of enduring physical abuse. That medical file vanished at the time of the hearing of case.
~Mother of baby had the baby's body immediately cremated to (obviously) destroy physical evidence which could be used against her. Then she had regular funeral services arranged for the burial of ashes.
~Several character witnesses were never questioned. Including the directly related witness who volenteered to testify on behalf of our son.
~My husband and I were the last two to be with the baby before the peremidics responded to our 911 emergency call, yet we weren't even suspects.
~The baby died in the hospital a day following the emergency call. The mother of the baby was out on her regular routine social calls not 4 hours after the loss of the baby. No moarning whatsoever.
~Mother was not interrogated or investigated whatsoever.
~Her uncle was the Cordinal of a San Francisco Catholic Church and had direct political involvement with the San Francisco Police Department. (hense, the influence in this particular case).

The list continues. However, case has long since been closed. A plea bargain was offered to my son (by his third court appointed attorney who had absolutely no experience in murder cases). He was improperly represented. But because he was pressured into choosing the plea bargain, any rights for reinvestigation of the case is immediately dismissed.
The result of the case was my son had been sentenced to 15 years to life with possibility of parole upon his first 15 years. However, the years spent in jail reflected the sentence, which expidited his first parole hearing by 6 years, which of course he was denied. He was denied his second. And next year he will be facing his third hearing. I've pretty much lost faith that he will be granted it then either.
My son will turn 30 this June. His life was ripped away from him due to our "justice" system.
(My brother fell victim to our system as well, but for other reasons. He, too is doomed to the remainder of his years behind bars due to the fact that he didnt have proper council at the time he needed it most).

I apologize for my rant. I didn't intend for it to be so extensive. I guess this subject merely struck a very sensitive nerve.
I apreciate your enduring....lol....(I do have a tendancy to babble..soz).

Shangrala

You have my deepest sympathies for what your family has endured!
Your intriguing post has pretty much covered all i had thought to say about this, except to elaborate that a stigma driven society is still no place to seek a fair justice. Until attitudes change, I am careful to whom I open up to anymore. I find that a shame and it is sad.
I pray you have peace in this!

[Junerain]

((((Shangrala)))

I feel, my life has been ripped away, also, in a different way. Perhaps had I spent all my painful years in jail at least I could have had the peace to do some thinking, I could not think with society telling me I was worth nothing, my thinking became theirs, that I WAS worth nothing. I am just starting to see how truly wonderful I am, and that is what I wish for your precious son, that he, too, sees how wonderful he is, mental illness or not. That is what I wish for us all

[Shangrala]

Originally Posted by Junerain

((((Shangrala)))

I feel, my life has been ripped away, also, in a different way. Perhaps had I spent all my painful years in jail at least I could have had the peace to do some thinking, I could not think with society telling me I was worth nothing, my thinking became theirs, that I WAS worth nothing. I am just starting to see how truly wonderful I am, and that is what I wish for your precious son, that he, too, sees how wonderful he is, mental illness or not. That is what I wish for us all

Thank you. I wish the same for you as well.
I cannot even begin to imaging the emotional torement and the sense of betrayal you, (or anyone encarcarated...for whatever the reason), must endure...especially when compounded by the act of injustice, which, of course, is more common than not.

It is absolutely madening the fact that those who are sentensed to our "rehabilitation" facilities are sentensed to a far worse hell than anyone on the outside could ever even possibly try to understand, (including myself).

I have been subjected to the ugliness of imprisonment but only from the repeated visitors view.
Upon entering for visiting, we must undergo a rigorous cycle of an almost "pre-sentensing" ourselves, (which I understand for security purposes, however, it would seem that after the 100th or more times of showing face there as an already pre-screened and 'accepted' visitor, we would not be treated so poorly time and time again). Their demeaner of attendance to the visitors (especially family relations) are enough to frighten off anyone to return again.
We must first apply for an application for a pre-screening in order to even be considered to be accepted to apply for a visitors application, upon which, we then need to reapply for the visitors application, which of course requires in-depth personal history which stems back more years than what seems to be even remotely related to the purpose of the visit itself. And, heaven forbid if the inmate should be transfered to another facility. We must undergo that entire process once again, give or take a few required regulations, depending on the facility. The already established pre-screened accepted list of visitors is not included in the inmates transcript, thus there is no trasfered inmate visitation history record.

It is absolutely heart-breaking to witness only the surface of the hell of which is going on inside of these facilities. When we go to visit our son, we apply our happy face the best we can, but after a couple hours of exposure to what we are allowed to see during visiting it is almost impossible to maintain that facade.

What makes it even more unbearable is the fact that regardless of the ill fate our son had been handed, his attitude is inspirational. Instead of focusing on the injustice and fighting to prove his innocence, he has used the tools provided him. He has somehow managed to sustain the curse of the system and has endulged himself into self-improvement and enlightenment. He found Christ even from deep within the center of hell itself, and has since been striving to focus on obaining to futher his education, as well as take on as many programs which offer employment development possiblities.
My hope is that he has not been within the system for so long now that (if and) once released, he does not fall victim to what society immediately throws onto him. He has already spent almost half of his life within a conditioned structure which thinks for him. The horror that most long-termed inmates must face once released back into our unforgiving society is, in my opinion, just another life sentensing in itself. I can understand why many inmates immediately fall right back into that sense of false security which had been so embedded into their consciousness.

My prayers to any and all who do fall victim to our system of "justice".

Shangrala

[Rhapsody]

If you are living in America then I feel that it should be "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" - for all mankind.

[Capp]

Shangrala,
I am deeply sorry for what your family has endured...

It's also something that has happened to far too may people. A sorry state of affairs in a nation that supposedly guarantees protection of our basic right.

Random thought here, but have you tried The Innocence Project?
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
If they cannot help they will direct you to other resources.

My best wishes to you,
Cap

[Michah]

All people shall be treated equal.......UN decrees that all human beings be given the same rights, equal opportunities regardless race, religion, gender, disabilities and the like......and be given these opportunities based on merit....

However, if I was to be given the same screening process for obtaining a gun or joining the military as everyone else, I would expect that I would be denied. And for good reason!!! I am much to pi#$ed off most of the time to be given any of these in good conscience......

[notz]

I believe our justice system in the United States is broken. I also think the penal system is ineffective.

We had a guy breaking into cars in our (big city urban) neighborhood. He was caught in the act and yet bonded out on a signature bond within 6 hours. He had 67 priors for similar offenses and was sentenced to 3 years probation with no time to serve. They're saving the precious bed space for the worst offenders.

He's right back in our neighborhood, giving a big ole "kiss my butt" smile with attitude and the car break ins have started up again. *sigh*

[Michah]

Originally Posted by Shangrala

In my opinion...Anymore, even though it is our right as an American citizen, I don't think it's "Innocent until proven guilty", but rather the other way around.

It seems to me that the value of our rights have succumbed to the value of the almighty dollar. Although I'm certain it has always been this way but in such small instances that it was just never recognized, (not to mention that if recognized the difficulty and amount of effort (money) required to fight against it). However, today it is quite apparent everywhere and is becoming more obvious, as well as almost impossible to oppose.

Our judicial system is highly corrupt and has taken a blind eye to our rights for many reasons, it seems. And it is usually always the poorly funded who are the targets to carry the cross of this injustice.
The measure of success to proving our innocence seems to be influenced on either who you know (with influencial status), or how much money you have to either buy your way out or literally spend on invensting for the proving of your innocence.

The rich and famous literally get away with murder as well as with other serious federal offenses, while the modest to poor incomed persons are the ones who must carry the burden to provide for our "fair" system's finances.

And, God help those who have any mental disorders (regardless of severity), on top of a modest to low income. It seems that only labels them as an even easier target as their condition would only make them "appear" to be all the more suspicious, therefore the more likely to take the fall.
The same applies to the race of the individual, and in certain cases, the gender of the person, as well.
Justice just doesn't seem to exist anymore. Whatever seems to work in the favor of the system, that is the direction it will go. It's just a matter of how much you can, (or are willing to) pay to fight your way out of an unjust circumstance.

There was a time when I truly believed in our judicial system. I had faith that the truth would always prevail. However, I have personally witnessed too many crimes commited by our own jusdical system to maintain that faith any longer.

At 18, my oldest son was arrested and convicted for the murder of an 8 month old baby girl (the baby's mother was an acquaintance of the family then).
Upon arrest of suspicion (simply on means of association to the company of the baby's mother), my son was interrogated by the local police department for nearly 9 hours straight until they pressured a testimony out of him to their liking.
~Police tampered with the audio & video of said "confession", which did not hold in court.
~My son was held in the county jail for 6 years following his arrest without a conviction made.
~No investigation was made. The mother of the child was in and out of jail years prior for various federal offenses.
~The baby had a medical history of enduring physical abuse. That medical file vanished at the time of the hearing of case.
~Mother of baby had the baby's body immediately cremated to (obviously) destroy physical evidence which could be used against her. Then she had regular funeral services arranged for the burial of ashes.
~Several character witnesses were never questioned. Including the directly related witness who volenteered to testify on behalf of our son.
~My husband and I were the last two to be with the baby before the peremidics responded to our 911 emergency call, yet we weren't even suspects.
~The baby died in the hospital a day following the emergency call. The mother of the baby was out on her regular routine social calls not 4 hours after the loss of the baby. No moarning whatsoever.
~Mother was not interrogated or investigated whatsoever.
~Her uncle was the Cordinal of a San Francisco Catholic Church and had direct political involvement with the San Francisco Police Department. (hense, the influence in this particular case).

The list continues. However, case has long since been closed. A plea bargain was offered to my son (by his third court appointed attorney who had absolutely no experience in murder cases). He was improperly represented. But because he was pressured into choosing the plea bargain, any rights for reinvestigation of the case is immediately dismissed.
The result of the case was my son had been sentenced to 15 years to life with possibility of parole upon his first 15 years. However, the years spent in jail reflected the sentence, which expidited his first parole hearing by 6 years, which of course he was denied. He was denied his second. And next year he will be facing his third hearing. I've pretty much lost faith that he will be granted it then either.
My son will turn 30 this June. His life was ripped away from him due to our "justice" system.
(My brother fell victim to our system as well, but for other reasons. He, too is doomed to the remainder of his years behind bars due to the fact that he didnt have proper council at the time he needed it most).

I apologize for my rant. I didn't intend for it to be so extensive. I guess this subject merely struck a very sensitive nerve.
I apreciate your enduring....lol....(I do have a tendancy to babble..soz).

Shangrala

Oh my god, that is absolutely revolting........well, that brings out the civil liberties bear in me.......Shangrala, you are a brave, loving mother........I have got goosebumps as i have a son myself........I pray and pray for a better outcome.

[Shangrala]

Originally Posted by Capp

Shangrala,
I am deeply sorry for what your family has endured...

It's also something that has happened to far too may people. A sorry state of affairs in a nation that supposedly guarantees protection of our basic right.

Random thought here, but have you tried The Innocence Project?
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
If they cannot help they will direct you to other resources.

My best wishes to you,
Cap

Thank you so much!!
In the past, we have made countless attempts to find something, someone to provide ANY interest in our son's situation. Of course, we could not afford "humpty-hundreds of thousands" to fund any assistance.

Eventually, I sought help online...which resulted in advice from an attorney instructing us that we are wasting our time seeking further assistance for the release of our son because he accepted the (pressured) plea bargain (which automatically relinquished his rights for future investigations at a later time if need be).

I most definately will look into this. Bless your heart for this.

Shangrala

[Shangrala]

Originally Posted by notz

I believe our justice system in the United States is broken. I also think the penal system is ineffective.

We had a guy breaking into cars in our (big city urban) neighborhood. He was caught in the act and yet bonded out on a signature bond within 6 hours. He had 67 priors for similar offenses and was sentenced to 3 years probation with no time to serve. They're saving the precious bed space for the worst offenders.

He's right back in our neighborhood, giving a big ole "kiss my butt" smile with attitude and the car break ins have started up again. *sigh*

What also urks me to no end, (though not surprising anymore) is where our system's priorities lie.
Example:
A sentence for a felony conviction of armed robery is neighboring 15 years or better (depending on the state).
A sentence for murder (perhaps involuntary manslaughter..not really certain...still, though..the result of the death of another) is oftentimes no more than 5 years, (give or take a few years, depending on the circumstances involved....or how much money the defendant has).

What is wrong with that picture?
Does our system really view the value of another person's life that insignificant and meaningless?

It disgusts me that what it all boils down to in the end is ONLY money.
(Much of the same applies to our medical caring process as well. To heck with seeking a cure for you if it means we can get more money out of you through repeated sessions, appointments, more medications, unnecessary treatements/surgeries......etc.)

The moral and value cries of our society has simply been silenced by the screams of greed for money. Shameful.

God help our children, and their children....and so on.

Shangrala

[Maven]

First, Shangrala, I'm sorry to hear of all your family's been through. I don't even know what to say, other than to share the same sentiments everyone else has.

On the topic itself, I'm not looking to obtain a gun at the moment, but it does bother me that I could be rejected for gun ownership, simply on the basis of having a mental illness. However, I believe it's only if you've been in a mental hospital that you will automatically be rejected. Still, to me, that's wrong, especially if it wasn't for a violent offense. I do understand rejecting someone who's proven themselves dangerous, but until I've done something to seriously show I'd be dangerous with a weapon, I shouldn't be rejected on the basis of having a mental illness.

If I ever live alone--and I hope someday I have that privilege--I may feel the need for protection. I'm a small woman. I don't see why I'm not entitled to protect myself, same as anyone else. I do believe in getting trained when obtaining a weapon, because you can't really be a responsible weapon owner if you don't know how to handle the weapon, and care for it.

Too many people think that if you're mentally ill, you're going to "snap." They also think that if you have panic attacks, you might react without thinking, but they don't understand that's not what a panic attack is, or how it comes on. It's not the same thing as panicking when someone startles you. (Which is why you should be trained to use the weapon, so you don't go off shooting someone who is dumb enough to sneak up on you when you have a weapon in hand. Of course, they're not being dumb if they don't know you have a weapon, but you know what I'm saying.)

I, too, have seen far too many injustices to feel trust in our government and hope for our rights. I have seen too much of the privileges and good things in life going to the rich, while those who have less money suffer. And, as they say, "The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer." But I won't deny that I want to be one of the rich...I just don't want to be one of the evil, greedy and corrupt rich. (There are a few out there who are good people.)

You always want to believe the truth will prevail, justice will be done, yet people are falsely accused, wrongly convicted and people in power stay in power. Criminals in churches and schools get shuffled off to other churches and schools, being protected, while their victims get no justice.

Remember growing up, seeing all those TV shows and movies and reading all those books that made you believe that goodness prevails, and good always wins against evil? Then reality smacked you in the head--HARD.

[Sad In TX]

I agree with Shangrala. Not only are people assumed guilty until proven innocent, but the victims of crime aren't treated any better. I was raped a long time ago, but the judicial system did nothing to help me, as in these situations the victim is someone who was possibly deserving of what happened to her for whatever reason.

As for establishing mental illness, I think that is a really hard thing to do. Most people don't believe in anything having to do with mental illness - you're either crazy or you're not according to the eyes of the law.

An extreme example could be Andrea Yates. She had a history of severe mental illness and yet no one did anything to help her until it was way too late, which is the root of this problem with crime and justice in general. All the signs are there - so why does it take something tragic and horrible for someone to take notice?

I think mental illness is still considered unscientific to most people, which in the judicial system is like playing Russian Roulette. Even the most credible shrink can be discounted because the science of the mind is not really tangible, unlike a crime a person whose mind isn't balanced can be due to forensic science.

But no, we aren't equal as Americans unless we have deep pockets when it comes to fair somewhat equitable treatment.

[Shangrala]

Maven ~

I cannot agree with you more.
Our society has such a stereotyped (blinder) focus on how they feel everything should be, that anyone who dare be "outside" of the "accepted" spectrum is automatically considered the outcast....AND is treated as such.
(A related point I need to inquire regarding that subject I will be constructing a new post, (in this same section), as I've (once again) encountered a situaton that is simply appaulling and rather confusing (to me) the restricted mentality of some adults/parents).

It is so unfair (as well as unfortunate....and upsetting, to say the least), for the "labeled" individuals to be the shadowed outcasts simply due to the unwillingness and ignorance of others.

What also really pisses me off to no end is when in public and witnessing those who appear "normal"...(whatever THAT is), who deliberately downgrade others who are seemingly not of the norm...Anything out of what is considered 'normal' is viewed as disgusting or inapporpriate, thus is made mockery of. If i pay witness to such public behavior, I can't help but to think of the person targeted and how he/she may be feeling at that very moment. I immediately ask myself, "how would I be feeling if that were me?". I do what I can to assist the person targeted, whether it be a direct action in their defense, by offering them assistance in anything they may need, or to reverse any unjust comments back upon whomever is projecting the offense.
Ever since I was little, I always befreinded the social "underdog" (if you will), and remain faithful to that today.

The possible injustice that you may experience is most unfortunate, yet all too common. I agree that one such as yourself, willing to be responsible for yourself, taking the necessary courses to educate yourself pertaining the possession of a hand gun as well as understanding the use and care for a weapon should be enough to speak for itself of your capabilities to own one. Yet, the ignorance and unwillingness of our society will continue to create more obstacles for those who already have an unbearable cross to carry.

I wish you the best. I sincerely hope that this does work out for you. In my opinion, from what you have described, you have as much legal right to bear arms as anyone.

Simply put...Our system simply sucks.

Shangrala

[Shangrala]

Originally Posted by Sad In TX

I agree with Shangrala. Not only are people assumed guilty until proven innocent, but the victims of crime aren't treated any better. I was raped a long time ago, but the judicial system did nothing to help me, as in these situations the victim is someone who was possibly deserving of what happened to her for whatever reason.

As for establishing mental illness, I think that is a really hard thing to do. Most people don't believe in anything having to do with mental illness - you're either crazy or you're not according to the eyes of the law.

An extreme example could be Andrea Yates. She had a history of severe mental illness and yet no one did anything to help her until it was way too late, which is the root of this problem with crime and justice in general. All the signs are there - so why does it take something tragic and horrible for someone to take notice?

I think mental illness is still considered unscientific to most people, which in the judicial system is like playing Russian Roulette. Even the most credible shrink can be discounted because the science of the mind is not really tangible, unlike a crime a person whose mind isn't balanced can be due to forensic science.

But no, we aren't equal as Americans unless we have deep pockets when it comes to fair somewhat equitable treatment.

I know exactly what you are saying!!
Same for me. Not only are we victim to the initial crime, but we are victimized all over again by the legal system. WE are put on trial as though our behavior sought out and asked for it to happen. We not only are stripped of our sense of security, violated of our individuality, but compounded by the shame our system deems on us for the act of falling vicitm, as well. UGH!
It's a very long process of healing to overcome the shock of the initial violation, however, the signal that our system sends out to us by applying that (public) shame is, for some, too overwhelming to ever recover from.

My heart to yours, Sad In TX...I know your pain.

Shangrala

[thelionkinglives]

Shangrala,
First let me start by saying you have my deepest sympathy for all you have endured. This is something I have a similar experience with.
My ex-wife killed my 1st born son when he was only 20 months old. She also shook my daughter who was only six weeks old. She was sentenced to 50 years in prison. In that aspect the justice system did it's job but I realize how it's a crap shoot from many other things I have seen with others.
That was the single worst day of my life. I left for work that morning as a stable husband & father. By the time the day was over my son was dead, my daughter was taken into protective custody, my wife was arrested & I was taken into the police station for 6 hours of questioning & interogation while they checked my time card & made sure I was at work.
The story became an overnight local media story. Reporters were calling my home, they were at my sons funeral & even did an interview with my ex sister in law at my sons grave site. It was front page news for a couple of weeks. They had editorial columns where alot of people posted opinions about my case. One in particular that sticks out to me was a woman that wrote in asking "where was this poor womans husband when she was crying out for help" like she was some kind of victim. The fact was, I would work over time to pay for her to get the counsiling for her anger & child hood abuse history. She had help & chose to do something I never even contemplated as a possibility. At this time I wasn't even old enough to drink yet. We were married at 17 & at that age you never thought much about what type of mother a woman will make. I carry the survivors guilt every day of my life of not being able to fill the most basic function of a father & protect my son as well as seeing the reminder of the event every day of my life in the issues with my oldest daughter & helping her over come the combo of emotional/physical trauma of that day.
While the justice system worked in this case, it was due to it being a slam dunk case. In general, I have had little trust in authority of any kind. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This mistrust of authority figures only grew as I entered college at 28. Hearing about psych experiments that were done where people would put people through shock therapy simply because a person wearing a lab coat told them to. I mistrust doctors in general because I feel they are in bed with the pharmacutical companies & are willing to make humans lab rats for a buck. You can't depend on the FDA to properly regulate. These feelings are only inhanced by the most recent experience where I was excessively beaten by three low IQ security guards in a mental hospital over a pen. They told me I could use a pencil but not a pen. It seemed so absurd to me at the time I honestly thought they were joking. When the neandrathals couldn't answer the simple question of why the next thing I know I was on the ground, hand cuffed & bloodied. They said I took a swing at them & they were defending their self. If anyone at the facility had taken time to seek the truth, they would be able to logically deduce the truth. If they would have checked my history, they would see I had no criminal history what so ever, no record of violence of any sort, not a domestic violence call, drug history, nothing.
For my own sanity though, I have to find a shred of hope that humans are not devolving into barbaric animals where I can. I think a big part of why these cases seem to occur more now is because of media coverage & technology & people are finally paying a little bit of attention. Look at the case of that Texas cop abusing his power with the NFL player going to see his dying grandmother. The thing that shocked me was the niavity of people at first. did people really think this is the first time this cop had done that? It was a robotic routine for him. Fortunately, he was an NFL player & had the means to get the story out there. I knew as soon as I heard it that this was normal for this cop. Sure enough when someone started digging they found the pattern.
Prosecuters get too caught up in their win-lose statistics, judges are corrupt, & the jury system is far from perfect & politicians appeal to the fear factor of the masses of simply wanting to appear tough on crime.

Where I am right now, I have a low opinion of our American style capitalism. It creates class war-fare. I am trying to put myself through college & am in a private school right now as a 33 year old husband & father of 4. It strikes me how many of the young 20 somethings from wealthy families are so sheltered from this dual existance. So many have a rosey black & white view of the world & hold the opinions that poorer people are either mentally incompotent, lazy or just bad people.
I envy them in someways. It's got to be a much happier existance.

Sorry, your story triggered a flood & my meds have this gunk flooding out of me.
I know I must find my faith in the human condition again, maybe too much Nietzche (philosopher)

[Shangrala]

Oh my.....wow!
I honestly do not know what to say...other than I am so deeply sorry for your experiences.
My heart to yours, unconditionally!

As you are aware, I too have lost complete faith in our system. There was a time when I began to try to seek an understanding of why so much corruption is present anymore, (mostly through nosing about on the Internet...which offers a more realistic truth than the "allowed" media which is available to the general public), but all that delivered me was more of an understanding of why my anger is justified....Which, in turn, only made me that much more disgusted.

For some bizarre reason, this has made me just now reflect on something my dad said to me just the other day....."We can only worry about things we can change for ourselves". I understand his theory on his reasoning, however, at the same time, isn't it that very reasoning which has influenced our society that we have today?
In other words, turn a blind eye to those in need, and worry about ourselves alone? Or, simply pretend nothing is happening, so long as all is going smoothly with our own selves? I'm sorry, dad, but that just doesn't sit right with me.
Maybe, if we ALL treated others with the concern we do for ourselves, then we would not have the social issues we now must face?

(Dad is a recently born Christian, and he talks about 'love thy neighbor', yet advises otherwise?....Makes no sense to me).

I wish you the best for you and your family. Again, my condolences to you.

Shangrala

[Lenny]

I am sorry for all your injust experiences. They are far too common throughout our world; Almost continuously is less developed nations.

The Love of Money is said to be the route of all evil...I think there is some Truth to that,,but in my experience the more sought after concubine and far more damaging is,,,power. Money is a tool of power but destructive power can thrive in the poorest of men.

For me,,,the seed to injustice is hypocracy. Pretending,,should be left with Barbie Dolls and Cowboys and Indians...but too often is rides on the backs of the most aspiring among us....

Again,,,please accept my sympathy for your painfull experiences...

Lenny

[thelionkinglives]

Originally Posted by Shangrala

Oh my.....wow!
I honestly do not know what to say...other than I am so deeply sorry for your experiences.
My heart to yours, unconditionally!

As you are aware, I too have lost complete faith in our system. There was a time when I began to try to seek an understanding of why so much corruption is present anymore, (mostly through nosing about on the Internet...which offers a more realistic truth than the "allowed" media which is available to the general public), but all that delivered me was more of an understanding of why my anger is justified....Which, in turn, only made me that much more disgusted.

For some bizarre reason, this has made me just now reflect on something my dad said to me just the other day....."We can only worry about things we can change for ourselves". I understand his theory on his reasoning, however, at the same time, isn't it that very reasoning which has influenced our society that we have today?
In other words, turn a blind eye to those in need, and worry about ourselves alone? Or, simply pretend nothing is happening, so long as all is going smoothly with our own selves? I'm sorry, dad, but that just doesn't sit right with me.
Maybe, if we ALL treated others with the concern we do for ourselves, then we would not have the social issues we now must face?

(Dad is a recently born Christian, and he talks about 'love thy neighbor', yet advises otherwise?....Makes no sense to me).

I wish you the best for you and your family. Again, my condolences to you.

Shangrala

It's alright. I don't expect anyone to know what to say. It's just good to feel some one understands & takes enough care about someone they have never met long enough to read & respond. What I am mentally realizing is that I have to learn not to focus on the fact that my distrust or paranoia is justified & follows simple cause & effect rules but that I still have to attempt to trust people because all that does is compound the problem even more. I can say it, but doing it is a different thing.

As for your dad. I understand where the attitude comes from. I've functioned fine for years not trusting others because I could trust myself. However with my mental health issues especially the last year, I've realized that no matter how bad I try that we are all going to have our lives in somebody elses hands at some point. So at least try to find people I can trust.

I know there are plenty of innocent people in prisons. The sad fact is they end up with the real criminals & so many eventually become what they were accused of being.

[thelionkinglives]

Originally Posted by Lenny

I am sorry for all your injust experiences. They are far too common throughout our world; Almost continuously is less developed nations.

The Love of Money is said to be the route of all evil...I think there is some Truth to that,,but in my experience the more sought after concubine and far more damaging is,,,power. Money is a tool of power but destructive power can thrive in the poorest of men.

For me,,,the seed to injustice is hypocracy. Pretending,,should be left with Barbie Dolls and Cowboys and Indians...but too often is rides on the backs of the most aspiring among us....

Again,,,please accept my sympathy for your painfull experiences...

Lenny

Lenny, thank you for your kind words. You are absolutely right about the power thing. Unfortunately, sometimes I feel ashamed to be male since we are predominately the abusers of power.

[Maven]

I sympathize with all of you. In the case of people who say, "Where was her husband/his wife/family," etc., people seem to not realize that, very often, family did seek help, which can be more difficult to find than "normal" people or people lucky enough to find it quickly know. In some areas, "help" is limited (I saw a TRUE LIFE episode where a boy wanted Accutane for his acne, but a pdoc visit is required for those prone to depression--as he was--and since there were only four pdocs in his area, he had to be on a two-month waiting list to see one), and often not very helpful.

Sometimes, when mental health stories are brought up on THE VIEW, Joy Behar will say that the person should just go to a pdoc and get some medication. Because, after all, it's so easy, right? And the meds work really well! The fact is, meds have a limited success rate, depending on the issue you have. For people like me, with OCD, a doctor on Discovery Health's CMD (or something like that) 2nd (that I know of) program on OCD said that, while there are exceptions, meds for OCD only help reduce 20-40% of the symptoms. It's better than nothing, but it's still not what you want a med to do. Especially those who pay full price!!!

I find a lot of bullying in the mental health system, too. For instance, sometimes, people who think you should try a medication you're adamently against taking, possibly because of risks associated with it (or all meds, if you want to see if you can live life without them), enter a program, sign yourself in to a psych ward, get a specific type of job, or whatever, will keep pressuring you. It's not all pdocs (and families), and I'm not saying these treatments or ideas aren't best for you, but you should be able to make a decision and have it respected, without people pushing you and repeating to you to do it.

There's also manipulators, who may not mean to be manipulators. I'm talking about those who cry and guilt you into things you don't believe in or want to do, and you resent them for it, especially if you do it and find you were right, that it wasn't the right thing for you, and maybe even harmed you. These people might be individuals, or work in pairs or groups.

I once was in a discussion group that had to do with the horror genre. We got to discussing guns, and I'd mentioned I had OCD, and despite my arguments, one guy said he still felt I should be given a very thorough check before being allowed to own a gun, more than other people. While he's entitled to his opinion, I still find it insulting.

[DaveyJones]

I believe that, on the whole, those with mental illnesses do have the same rights as ordinary citizens. In many states, mine included, those who have been legally judged to suffer from certain mental illnesses may have their right to gun ownership revoked. A case in point is the Virginia Tech shooter. He had been legally found to have a mental illness, and he should have been in the background check database, but he was not, which is all too common.

Barring that exception, I do think that we have the same rights as anyone, and while there are those who are convicted wrongly, I think for the most part defendants are treated as innocent until proven guilty. There have been two extremely high profile cases in my area, including the shooting of a sheriff's deputy, where the accused were found not guilty. These were not rich folks, either. Everyone thought they were goners, but the prosecution simply did not prove their case. I think that black folks still face a much greater chance of unjust imprisonment or harsh sentences than white folks. I also believe that the severity of the accusation makes a difference. A man who is accused of the killing of a child, guilty or not, is going to have an extremely difficult time staying out of prison.

The rub with protecting our rights is that when we face the authorities in a criminal proceeding we must guard our rights no matter what the cost. The way we lose our rights is to give them up when they are most needed. I learned this the hard way many years ago. If asked by a policeman for permission to search, you HAVE to say,"You must show me a warrant." If they threaten you or your property you MUST repeat your request. When they begin to interrogate you, you MUST use four words: "I WANT A LAWYER". Tell them that you will not talk to them until you have spoken with counsel. They will threaten you and they will intimidate you, but you MUST NOT RELENT.

The authorities will use any method they can to convince you to give up your rights. They do this because those who will not yield their rights make their lives more difficult. There is a reason that the Supreme Court required police to read you your rights. If you don't know them or are afraid to insist on them they will run all over you.

Yes, I think those who are "mentally ill" have the same rights as any citizen. But if we do not guard and exercise those rights when they are most needed, then we lose them.

[thelionkinglives]

Originally Posted by DaveyJones

I believe that, on the whole, those with mental illnesses do have the same rights as ordinary citizens. In many states, mine included, those who have been legally judged to suffer from certain mental illnesses may have their right to gun ownership revoked. A case in point is the Virginia Tech shooter. He had been legally found to have a mental illness, and he should have been in the background check database, but he was not, which is all too common.

Barring that exception, I do think that we have the same rights as anyone, and while there are those who are convicted wrongly, I think for the most part defendants are treated as innocent until proven guilty. There have been two extremely high profile cases in my area, including the shooting of a sheriff's deputy, where the accused were found not guilty. These were not rich folks, either. Everyone thought they were goners, but the prosecution simply did not prove their case. I think that black folks still face a much greater chance of unjust imprisonment or harsh sentences than white folks. I also believe that the severity of the accusation makes a difference. A man who is accused of the killing of a child, guilty or not, is going to have an extremely difficult time staying out of prison.

The rub with protecting our rights is that when we face the authorities in a criminal proceeding we must guard our rights no matter what the cost. The way we lose our rights is to give them up when they are most needed. I learned this the hard way many years ago. If asked by a policeman for permission to search, you HAVE to say,"You must show me a warrant." If they threaten you or your property you MUST repeat your request. When they begin to interrogate you, you MUST use four words: "I WANT A LAWYER". Tell them that you will not talk to them until you have spoken with counsel. They will threaten you and they will intimidate you, but you MUST NOT RELENT.

The authorities will use any method they can to convince you to give up your rights. They do this because those who will not yield their rights make their lives more difficult. There is a reason that the Supreme Court required police to read you your rights. If you don't know them or are afraid to insist on them they will run all over you.

Yes, I think those who are "mentally ill" have the same rights as any citizen. But if we do not guard and exercise those rights when they are most needed, then we lose them.

1st let me say that I do not own or want to own a gun & my view points are in general from an anti-gun stand point.
You are right on the protecting your rights. I use to be of the mind set that why cause a fuss if you have nothing to hide? But over time when you see others get railroaded & charges trumped up & even evidence planted it makes you more caution. Now let me state at this point I have NEVER been arrested for anything so I do not have any personal resentment towards legal issues. So from that stand point I have no bias.

Looking back on my case though, when my son was killed I sometimes wonder how much harder could things have actually been if I did not had been able to prove I was at work when it happened. I never asked for a lawyer because I never felt I needed it.

Also, let it be clear that I have seen the justice system work, but I believe there are more injustices than the majority of people realize.

[Maven]

I think others should have to prove a history of violence (or other reason, besides a general, "He's mentally ill") before rejecting someone's right to own a gun. I'm not suggesting everyone should get a gun, but no one should be discriminated against if they haven't shown a reason they can't be responsible with one.

And you're right, lionking, too many people have the attitude that if they're not doing anything wrong, if they have nothing to hide, then why be afraid of having one's privacy rights violated, among other rights. They give away their rights, and we all pay for it.