Neurofeedback Therapy

Has anyone tried neurofeedback therapy? If so how did you find it? Have been reading about some of its successes in relation to those with PTSD and find it interesting.

I have! My longtime T actually got all trained up, got the equipment and everything in her quest to help me. We were running into a lot of trouble in sessions due to my severe dissociation. My T actually consulted with Sebern Fisher (she's a well-known neurofeedback expert) about my case We had to try a lot of different protocols and tweak different things, but I do think it helped me. We found that I received the best results lying on the couch with my eyes closed - so not watching the visuals, just hearing the audio feedback. The results weren't immediate or obvious to me during the treatment. However, post-neurofeedback, my disruptive symptoms had improved. The frequency that I dissociated into unresponsiveness decreased. I was more able to talk about traumatic things.

I can't be sure that it was the neurofeedback that achieved these results, as it might have been just the time spent resting in my T's calm presence. However, there were many times that my T would show me a number on the screen, and tell me she wanted me to try to decrease it. Almost immediately, the number would go down. That really showed me how I could affect my brain waves via training, so I think the premise behind neurofeedback is quite promising - I would like to see a lot more research done on it. I definitely found it more helpful than EMDR, which rarely seemed to do anything for me. Unfortunately, my longtime T told me she's pretty much done with neurofeedback recently. I don't know why. Maybe I should tell her next time I'm home that I find neurofeedback far superior to EMDR...

Just let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them!

i have done NFB and even have my own system that i use at home. i did my NFB in conjunction with my talk therapy (but my primary therapist was not the one administering the NFB).

similar to fille_folle i was struggling with severe dissociation that was hindering my progress in therapy, especially, the relationship with my then therapist (there were a lot of transference/counter transference issues going on between us that seemed to stall the therapy). the NFB helped to calm my emotional dysregulation and once that happened, i was able to focus on the therapy and my goals without constantly 'being stuck' in the emotional turmoil that the therapy/relationship seemed to always trigger. NFB was successful in helping to calm many of my core anxieties and fears. after doing NFB regularly for just over a year, i felt stable and secure enough to finally end an almost 6 year therapy relationship. i have been out of therapy for a year now and have no plans to return.

i was following Sebern Fishers protocols in her book :
Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma | Sebern Fisher

She trains many Ts in NFB, including the clinical T who i sought NFB from. i even had the opportunity to meet her when i attended a training session she offered at my clinical Ts practice. she definitely understands complex and developmental trauma better than anyone else i have ever met.

I have started for my depression. Only 4 sessions in.
They have to treat me 10 sessions before transferring the sensors to the depression site.
Still the same as of now. Although on my second session I was motivated and optimistic.
We shall see . Im hoping for the best.

wellshii, hope you experince positive results

I haven't done it but my care manager was just talking about it. She said her son did it and it really helped his anxiety.

i truely wish more people knew about it and had better access or the opportunity to at least try it.

This thread is a little old, but I'm glad that I found it!

I heard a NFB practitioner speak this weekend, and it was fascinating. I'm going in this afternoon for my scan!

One of the things that I really liked is that she tells you people to NOT tell her anything about their symptoms or diagnosis before the scan. She wants to scan your brain, analyze the patterns, then come back (2nd appointment) and tell you what she thinks is going on. It's a really cool way to validate whether or not the NFB is picking up on the right things. If she knew ahead of time what issues you have, it would be easy to just point to things and say, "oh yeah, here's what's causing your anxiety" for example.

Anyway, I'm excited. It seems like there's some controversy (i.e. some people think it hasn't been validated) but I think it's worth trying. The risks of side effects appears to be so much lower than with medication.

I'm so exhausted right now, all the time. And, I've tried so much therapy - to no avail. I don't ever seem to be able to get to a place where therapy is helpful, and when Ts push too hard, I get worse. So, fingers crossed that this helps!

that's fantastic! when i got my initial NFB assessment (scan) it was incredibly validating. my NFB clinician had picked up on many of my issues that i had spent years with my talk T trying to describe or even believe. i cried when he gave me the results of the assessment because it was not only a relief to know that the symptoms i had were actually real and that there was a valid reason for them, but he reassured me that he could help to ease many of my symptoms with the NFB. it brought back a sense of hope when almost all hope was gone that i could ever get better or live a happier life.

i hope you will post an update.

Thanks Koru_Kiwi. I go back Thursday afternoon to get the results.

I'm a little nervous. I was *so* tired, and I think that part of that is that I've been working to give up junk food/sugars. I was about a week in, and expected to feel better - but my brain was just *exhausted*, to the point that when I came home and tried to finish up some stuff for work, I couldn't really focus at all. I was writing sentences and leaving out phrases (and not realizing until I reread them), and I meant to copy a section of what I was writing to edit it (it was a second item), but I overwrote it instead, without realizing, and then had to rewrite it. It was pretty terrible.

She asked me if I was exhausted when we were getting started (as part of the setup, checking to make sure it was OK to run the test... with other questions like whether you're on medication, if you've eaten today, alcohol/caffeine use, etc.) I told her that I was tired and about the sugar issues, so hopefully she can account for that. But, I didn't realize *how* tired I was, until I got home and tried to work. Yikes.

It was also weird, in the sense that, it felt like the environment was different enough from day-to-day life, that I didn't feel like my brain was behaving the way it normally would. She understood though, and said that's normal, and that really she's just looking for patterns, which tend to be consistent, even when the situation is weird.

So, we'll see!

My testing had 5 sets of 3 tasks. The first task was always to sit for a minute with my eyes closed, and the second was always to sit with my eyes open (trying to look at one point). The third one varied, and we did these:

- Listen to the person read a paragraph for one minute. After the minute (when the machine was off) - give a short summary of what she read. (I think most of us can do this easily, but again, since it was a "test" environment, my brain was on hyper-crazy-overdrive! I don't normally listen like that. It wasn't even that I was intently listening, it's that my brain was bouncing around, trying to remember every word of what she was saying, trying to create the summary as she was talking... very weirdly unfocused.)

- I also had to read a paragraph on a screen (for one minute), then summarize once the machine was off.

- She read a sequence of numbers, and I had to repeat them back. This one was weird. Since I was talking with the machine on, and you want to minimize muscle movement, I had to sort of "mumble" the numbers while keeping my mouth as still as possible. I felt like I was drunk or half-asleep lol. So, when we got to my last string (as many numbers as I could remember and get right)... I got halfway through, then literally mumbled something like, "uhhh, i dunno"... halfheartedly, lol. I think I might have tried harder if I weren't exhausted and weren't mumbling, the mumbling made me feel a bit unintelligent.

- I was supposed to spend a minute thinking about some future, positive change that I expected... it had to be in the future, positive, about me, and I had to mentally experience it. I think I can do this OK normally, but I feel like it was really hard in the test setting. I suspect my brain is not going to look very competent at imagining a happy future !

- And, omg! This one was terrible. I had to look at a passage on a screen and count the number of times the letters "t" "h" and "e" occurred together. It could be as the word "the", but also in any words, so like the word "other" would count. If I got to the end (during the minute), I had to go back and recount and see if they could match up. I couldn't - my mind kept getting pulled in to reading the words. The first time through I only found ONE! Then, I skipped around, found another, and another... but I had no confidence in my final answer (which was, "err... 4 or 5, maybe?").

The person doing the testing was really nice, funny, and smart. So I enjoyed talking with her and didn't feel too awful about the testing. She mentioned that we're not testing "executive function" - the test is really NOT about getting the right answer, it's about watching what your brain does as you try to get the right answer

But, I still worry that maybe my test is going to be adversely affected by level of exhaustion... crazy work stuff right now is not helping, I probably should have scheduled it out a couple weeks, to get my through the insanity at work!

Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but it really is kind of fascinating. I'm hoping it can help - but not sure how I'll be able to manage the time away from work (plus regular therapy appointments that I have to leave work for). Argh!

wow! thanks for such a detailed description of the assessment she gave you. the assessment that i completed was not exactly the same, but similar. there was the eyes open and eyes closed section, i read a passage out of a book, and then there was part where i had to listen to a strange kind of 'static' noise in headphones. when my clinician explained the results of the assessment and the reasons for why they were that way based on my EEG data, i found it quite fascinating to hear, especially in regard to my truama symptoms.

your tiredness may have a slight effect on the results, but overall i do not think it will make much of a difference since the EEG is measuring and comparing different types (frequencies) of brain waves in various regions of your brain when you were doing the tasks she had you complete.

again, thanks for sharing and definitly post an update after you get your results.

Thanks for describing your experience too, Koru-Kiwi. I went back this afternoon to talk about the results.

I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I felt... really profoundly disappointed.

I felt kind of "unseen". There were things that she said that were absolutely 100% accurate, but also, things that didn't resonate or that I couldn't quite make sense of. And, I felt like it missed a lot.

She moved on to the "let me tell you about the packages we offer" part of the presentation, and I started to make confused faces, trying to figure out what/how to ask. She asked me what was going on, and I told her that I was confused... that it missed big things. I have a trauma history. I was once diagnosed with a dissociative disorder. I'm extremely difficult for therapists to deal with (this has been confirmed by more than one therapist).

I just thought that more of this would be reflected. She said the dissociation was a surprise, that there's usually something very specific she sees, and I have no sign of it in my brain. She talked a little about trauma and how it could relate, but I didn't feel like she pulled everything together.

And, maybe that's part of it? I think that she very much presented it like, "I see this. It means this. I see this other thing, and it means this other thing." She really didn't do any kind of integration of the results. I don't know if that's typical, but it would perhaps make more sense.

I was also disappointed in that we talked about me not having the best memory, and while we talked, I specifically asked if she was going to send a report (otherwise, I'd want to take notes). Yes, she sent it - but it's pretty bare bones. None of the recommendations she talked about are in there at all! Heck, she didn't even include information on the services that they provide. I would have liked to have been able to read through that and consider my options, away from the office, but that's not even an option.

Ugh. Just really disappointed. I'm glad that I got a discounted rate. I think it was interesting and worth what I paid, but I would have felt really awful if I'd paid the full fee!

The report is hard to make sense of. In one place, it says that alpha was high... but then it talks (a lot) about it being a little low - which she mentioned. She said that for most adults, it's 10Hz, but mine was at like... 9.5. In person, she said 9.8. And it's probably a range. But (and I wish I had thought to ask!) I'm wondering how serious a 0.5 Hz difference really is?

A lot of focus on sleep issues and a high beta that doesn't shut down when I close my mind, which is true. I'm usually still exhausted when I wake up (though I'm making some changes in my diet, exercise, routine, etc that I believe will help - it's helped before!).

But, she also mentioned trouble *falling* asleep. Sometimes that's a problem for me, but it's not a constant issue that really bugs me. I have trouble *going to sleep* (actually disengaging, turning off the light, and going to bed) - but once I do, I think I fall asleep pretty quickly (unless it's too early to sleep).

Interesting, there are some notes in the report that say some things "suggest the subconscious emotions (i.e. trauma, resentment, fear) may be impacting conscious decision making behind the scenes" - I think if she had talked about that, it would have resonated and made me feel like she was "getting it". But, she didn't mention that, even when I brought up having a trauma history!

She also talked about "hot temporals" (?) - and said there are two ways that can show up. The first, which is 100% accurate for me, is an inability to "tune out" noises. I have this, and it drives me nuts... in fact, during the test, I was noticing sounds from the other offices. While in the waiting room, I was hearing sounds from behind the wall that were odd, trying to figure out what they were. Her example was getting irritated when taking a test in school, because someone is tapping their pencil - and that was totally me - it was MADDENING b/c I couldn't focus on the questions at all. She said that my brain literally can't read/answer the questions, for example, without paying attention to the noise. (In fact, this has come up with my last two therapists... my last one actually put sound proofing in his ceiling, because I was so distracted/upset by hearing people talking on the other side of the wall.)

So. I don't know. I didn't leave feeling really understood, or feeling like she could actually help. She didn't really spend any time talking about treatment would look like, what kind of changes were possible, or what the risks were at all. The office is hard to get to, and it's expensive (you have to commit to the whole program of sessions, not just "come and pay and see how it works for you" - plus the program includes things like meeting with their health counselor and doing nutritional testing. I think that stuff *could* be good, but I don't really know much about the other people who work there and it just feels a bit... eh... to me.)

It also worries me that there was no discussion at all of how to proceed with treatment re: the trauma. I've been googling a bit, and have seen that some people have real problems when they try NFB with trauma or repressed memories. Stuff pops up and it can be very destabilizing. I've been very destabilized from therapy in the past... just from being pushed too hard, too fast to get in to the trauma. I would have liked her to have said something about that... maybe just to acknowledge it, or talk about what she does to keep it from happening.

I don't think I'm going to go forward with it. I think I'd still consider doing NFB with someone... but I'd want to find someone closer, who doesn't require a commitment to an entire package of sessions, and who maybe has experience with dealing with trauma stuff.

Phew! I know, that's a lot! Thanks... I really appreciate being able to "unload" it here. I've actually written to my therapist too (and she told me I could, if I needed support), but I think she's not going to write back, so I was feeling a little unheard there too (though I told her in my email that "I'm OK" - so maybe she won't think it's necessary.)

I'm also considering getting a system that does "entrainment" at home... she talked a little about this, you have to do it more often than NFB, but it basically just creates a frequency (with sounds, and maybe lights?) and your brain naturally matches it. I need to look in to it more, but it might be a cheaper, easier way to get some of the benefits. Maybe?

Thanks!!!

thanks for sharing all of that. your experince sounds quite different to the one i had. sorry to hear that it was disappointing...i too felt a bit disappointed just reading your account of it and also would feel put off if the clinician was trying to push 'package deals' on to me. from what you have shared here, my gut tells me that this probably is not the right clinic to go to address truama and dissociation. i hope you do find another place that is closer to you that can help to address your truama symptoms. i beleive i already mentioned this in an earlier post, but i would recommend that if you do seek someone else out, ask if they are familiar with Sebern Fisher and her NFB protocols for developmental trauma/c-PTSD. i used many of her protocols to address my truama symptoms, including my dissociatiive disorder. She also offers training to therapist and clinicians who are interested in using NFB. you may be interested in reading her book as well, it is quite informative about developmental truama and how to address it with NFB: 'Neurofeedback In the Treatment of Developmental Truama' Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma | Sebern Fisher

good luck!

Thanks, Koru-Kiwi. And, thanks for the recommendation. I have the Sebern Fisher book... I got it recently after seeing a strong recommendation on reddit, but haven't had a chance to dive in yet. But, it's on my list to read. I'll keep looking to see who else I can find locally.

Thanks!

More disappointment, I just wanted to vent and wasn't sure if it was appropriate for the therapy forum.

There's a guy near me who does neurofeedback and has something like 20 years experience, trains people, and who trained my therapist. She recommended him, and says he absolutely knows his stuff and she trusts him. He also has training as a therapist, I think, so she feels like he'd "get" trauma and not risk making things worse for me.

On his website, there are 3 people listed at his office... him, his daughter (who appears to be in training to be a counselor) and another counselor who is certified in Neurofeedback and also has about 20 years of experience.

So, I finally sent them an email, asking if this guy is still doing neurofeedback, and how to schedule a "meet and greet" (per their website).

And, nope. He "consults" on difficult cases, but his daughter is doing all the training.

Ugh. Maybe I'm being unfair, but I've seen lots (LOTS) of therapists. My last T was very, very clear that when I was looking for a new one, I need someone with a lot of experience, because I tend to be a bit difficult (not on purpose, not anything dramatic - just a difficult case). New T agrees. I don't expect the neurofeedback person to be also doing counseling, but in reality, things might come up. And, there's no way that someone who's working at her dad's office and isn't even licensed yet (!) is going to be a good fit for me.

I know, I probably sound like a jerk. But, seriously... I've been trying to get help for the last 20 years. I've had a lot of experienced, qualified therapists... and none of them really worked for me. Lots of them inadvertently made things worse, or ended up kicking me out. It's been such a mess.

It's so frustrating to see something that looks like it could help - and feel like it's *just* out of reach. It's already expensive and time-consuming, why is it also so hard to find somebody competent to actually do the training?

I'm disappointed all over again!!! And, really... part of me just wants to buy a system and do it myself.

Thanks for listening... sorry for the venting! Happy Weekend everyone!

Just an update, for anyone still curious.

I've found somebody who seems very experienced and who offers remote training. My equipment should come next week, and I did a QEEG (assessment) locally, and had the data sent to him for analysis.

I just met with him tonight (phone) to talk about the QEEG results... and I'm a little down. I feel like such a mess... but my QEEG was overall very very normal, apparently.

It's really confusing. There were a couple tiny things that he pointed out, but overall, things look good. Which makes no sense, becauseI'm really struggling with so much in life (I have an entire sheet of notes of things that I thought neurofeedback might help with).

I recorded the call, so I'll go back and listen again later to make sure I'm not mishearing things or overreacting. The one thing that really jumped out was that he thinks my sleep isn't great, and that it's causing problems for me during the day (fogginess, slowness, tiredness, inability to get through much) - he said it looks like I'm pushing through it, but that once that clears up, a lot of other issues may be better too.

Mostly, I'm feeling kind of sad and confused. My life feels like such a mess and I feel so "not normal" (beyond being tired/lack of sleep). But I often feel like I do OK at looking better off than I feel (like most people wouldn't guess that I'm in therapy), and this kind of feels like it plays into that.

Anyway, I wanted to share, and wasn't sure where on the forums was most appropriate. I don't know if anyone is going to see this here, but at least I got to articulate it.

thanks.

thanks for the update.

just curious, which set up have you ordered?

that is interesting that this practitioner says that your qEEG is apparently 'normal' have you refereed to Seburn's book to the appendix where she has the list of symptoms and actually completed that client assessment? this may help to guide you to what areas are over or under aroused and where you should be focusing on with the protocols (if you and this practitioner decide to focus on any of those protocols that are in her book). this is what i like about Seburn's method, she tends to follow the presenting symptoms that the client is exhibiting to dictate the direction of the treatment.

Hi Koru Kiwi,

I was just stopping by to post an update, because I did my first training session today (and have no one in "real life" to talk to about it).

re: The set - I've got a U-Wiz (so it's only 2-channel, no HEG) amplifier and bioexplorer. I also have the "Innertube" game (rocket ship navigating through tunnels), as they recommended that, although I believe I can do audio-only training (and maybe some other games?) with Bioexplorer. I didn't order BX Shadow (which lets you train by watching movies) because, all in all, getting everything (plus supervision, QEEG, etc) was pretty expensive and I didn't think I needed that one too (though I may have a trial version installed, I'm not sure).

Apparently, they set most people up with the same protocol to start, about 20 minutes of C4-A1. It's supposed to be really gentle, and they only do 20 minutes so that you can see how sensitive you are. The trainer that did my introduction told me that they usually move people up to 30 minutes. For now, she said not to do more than every other day, but again depending on how I react, I may be able to do daily (if I want to).

I was SO INCREDIBLY stressed/anxious about getting it all set up. So, having it work was exciting and cool, but also a huge relief.

Not sure yet how I feel (this was all this afternoon). My neck was weirdly a little sore, and my earlobes hurt from the electrodes (I think I can fix this by moving them to the tops of my ears). But, after training, I laid down... and my body, everything below my neck, felt SO relaxed. It's not as noticeable standing up and moving around, but it was like that kind of relaxed you feeling you get after a massage. So that was nice.

Anyway, I'm mostly excited and hopeful at this point! I listed my goals (for now) on my training sheet as sleep/energy (I tend to be tired all the time, I wake up tired, and often feel like I'm losing consciousness in the middle of the afternoon), then anxiety and depression. It seems like a good place to start.

The provider did tell me that he'll tend to believe me (re: symptoms) rather than the QEEG, and that I should think about what I want to work on, because there's a lot that you can affect with the neurofeedback.

The whole thing is very, very cool.

What kind of equipment do you have? And, what types of games/feedback are you using? I did "Innertube" today, and it was mostly what I expected (rocket stuttering, moving forward, stopping) - but every once in a while something odd would happen. Like, once my rocket totally missed the little mark it's supposed to hit, and had to spin around to tap it, then get back on the path. A couple times I seemed to run in to the walls, but not enough to seem like it was a normal action. Not sure if it's just noise, or how it's deciding what to do.

Thanks!

Ooh, and Koru_Kiwi (or anyone else who wants to chime in) - I had two other thoughts about neurofeedback, and I'm curious what others think.

1. The whole concept of neurofeedback, and the fact that it's been to show to work (at least some times, for some people) - means are brains think they can control the world.

What I mean is, if I didn't know that this worked, I wouldn't expect it to. Our brainwaves are invisible, they're not something that we consciously make (unlike, say an expression, like a "smile"), and afaik there is nothing in the world that actually reacts to our brainwaves (other than neurofeedback). There is no biological/evolutionary reason why our brains would be able to connect the feedback we're seeing with the brainwaves we're making, and change their functioning to get better feedback. It's sort of crazy, when you think about it, isn't it?!?!

Or am I missing something? Because to me, it looks like our brains, somehow, are set up to *think* they can control things in our environment. It boggles my mind a little!

2. I'm a highly anxious, very high strung person. If this works, I'm hoping I'll be a little more relaxed, chilled out, and "go with the flow". Not so chronically stressed by every little thing... We know that stress has all kinds of negative health effects. So, if this does what I hope it does, it could literally be "life saving" not just in terms of emotions, but in terms of physical health too. That's so cool to me!

Just random stuff I'm pondering tonight. I'm actually a little tiny bit fuzzy... like my head feels weird, it's not a full-blown headache, but it's not really all focused and together either. Not sure if it's the training, or something else. And my neck is still killing me. But, it's really nice to feel hopeful!

Take care!

I am just curious.. is there science to back up whether neurofeedback is an accepted and effective form of treatment? I ask because my understanding is that it has been shown to have potential but I thought they didnt study its effects and success enough to endorse or approve it? I may be wrong which is why I am asking.

Edit: This was in response to sarahsweets question about evidence!

I think so, personally. But I didn't keep an index of everything that I read when I was researching it.

- Not "research", but if you read the Seburn Fisher book (Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma: Calming the Fear-Driven Brain: 9780393707861: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com) - she talks about her experiences treating people with development trauma.

She's been doing this for awhile now (I'm guessing at least 20 years?) and has worked not just in private practice, but with badly traumatized kids in group homes/treatment centers. She talks about how neurofeedback is able to basically help people rewire their brain, whereas in her years of doing just therapy, she hasn't seen that happen.

So for complex trauma, she talks about how with a lot of therapy, you might get to a point where you can recognize your triggers and know how to cope when triggered. You won't act as "reactively" - but you still react. You still get scared, and have to use coping tools. With neurofeedback (over enough time, it can take a year or more, I think, for complex stuff) - she says that she sees people actually "cured" in the sense that they don't react. The triggers disappear. That's really mind-blowing to me!

- There's apparently a ton of research re: neurofeedback and ADD. The guy that I'm working with casually mentioned that ADD is one of the few things that the FDA (I think?) has approved neurofeedback to diagnose, because there are clear indicators in the QEEG that reliably show ADD. These do a *better* job than trying to assess someone's behavior (from a talk that I hear from someone else). I believe neurofeedback can be used to treat ADD too, but I didn't read as much about that, since that wasn't the issue that I was interested in.

- Another person that I've read has talked about how there are complaints that there aren't enough "double blind" studies of neurofeedback. The problem is, it's really hard to do that right now. Double blind means that both the doctor and the patient do NOT know if they're receiving the actual treatment or a placebo (so the doctor is given pills to give to the patient, but doesn't know if they are the real pills or sugar pills. This way, the doctor can't unconsciously give any subtle cues that might let the patient know what they're getting and influence their reactions).

That's really hard to do with neurofeedback, apparently. It's hard to have someone know that they're giving "fake" neurofeedback.

BUT - the point that this guy was making was that there are other studies of neurofeedback where practitioner is able to make symptoms disappear, bring them back, then remove them again. Which shows that the NF *IS* doing what it's supposed to.

- The last bit that I remember clearly, and found fascinating, is that NF was really developed in the 60s. The guy who worked on this was working with cats - trying to see whether he could train them to produce a particular frequency of brainwaves (and he did). Then, he got a contract with NASA to work on a solution for astronauts who were having seizures from the rocket fuel fumes.

He started his NASA work by taking a bunch of his cats, and exposing them to rocket fuel, to see at what levels seizures developed. Some of the cats didn't get seizures though... no matter how much rocket fuel he exposed them to. You can imagine his confusion, until he figured out - the cats that weren't having seizures were the same ones that he had trained to produce that particular brainwave.

So not only did they make more of the brainwave, they continued to do so after training was completed, and it had a clear protective effect from rocket-fuel-induced seizures. (In a way, this was double blind - the cats clearly didn't know what was going on, and he had forgotten about the previous study, so wasn't trying to test its effects).

That's all great, but even better - he had an assistant who suffered from bad seizures. She was unable to drive, took strong medications, and was scheduled for brain surgery to try to fix the problem (which didn't have a super high chance of success).

After seeing the cats, she asked him to let her try the neurofeedback. So he set her up, and she did it... and... the seizures stopped. She didn't go through with the surgery, she was able to stop the medication, and she was able to drive again.

So... that's really anecdotal, not at all a scientific study. But, it's powerful.

I believe there's more actual "research" out there, but I haven't dug in or organized it. I basically read enough to decide it worth trying. I have a long history of terrible therapy experiences (therapy has usually made me much worse, and has *never* really been helpful/good for me). I'm pretty miserable, and feel like I've wasted most of my life (I'm in my mid-40s) dealing with this stuff. Neurofeedback seems to have very few "risks" associated with it - it's based on teaching your brain to operate a little differently. It doesn't "stick" with just one session, so if you do have a bad reaction to a particular protocol, you just try something else next time.

The downsides are that it can be time-consuming and expensive.

I find it insane that, given the low risks and possibility of "curing" something (versus just treating symptoms with medication) that it's not more well known and used. I think that there are probably politics involved (for example, it wouldn't surprise me if drug companies were against it, because people often are able to stop taking medication when they do neurofeedback) - which just sucks. From an insurance perspective, it's also probably more "difficult" to administer (if you see someone in person, you have to go at least 2x/week, and you might need 40-60+ sessions) versus giving you a pill and sending you home.

So, that's my (long-winded) take on it. Hope that's helpful! If you're interested, you should definitely poke around more online and see what you can find.

thanks for the update! i enjoyed reading it glad you got your system all set up and have had opportunities to use it.

i also have a two channel unit and have been able to do everything i have needed with it. it's the Thought Technologies ProCompII and i use their BioGraph Infinity software with it. it has some simple games, like making objects move, and also a lot of fractal or image changing games that have accompanying music/sounds with it. i prefer the changing fractals games the most, they are quite relaxing for me and feel less frustrating.

i too started with placement at C4-A1. it seems to be a good starting point and a good place to return to if you ever feel a new protocol is not working well for you. if i recall right, for me, working at C4 seemed to help ease my sleep issues (waking in the middle of the night often with a racing mind and getting maybe 4 hours total of sleep). it was amazing as my sleep started to improve because it helped to ease some of my depression as my 'spirits' began lifting.

in regards to the ear clips (which do start to feel a bit uncomfortable after a while), i started using a small 1/4 cut piece of round cotton pad (the disposable ones for removing nail polish or makeup) and place that between the ear and the the side of the clip without the metal contact. for me, the extra padding against my ear lobe seemed to help ease that pinching.

are you still having issues with stiffness in your neck? IIRC, from Seberns book, this is a sign of over stimulation and you may be training at too high of a frequency and/or for too long.

after a NFB session, i often will feel incredibly relaxed and sometimes sleepy. like you said, it does feel similar to how you feel after a relaxing body message.

i don't require to use my equipment as frequently anymore. i have done some brief 'top up' sessions a few times when i felt like was in a 'funk', but the last time i did that was probably over 6 months ago. anymore, i tend to use it for alpha/theta training, which i do lying down, eyes closed for about 45 min to an hour. it helps to get me into a meditative state (it's a state where you are kind of cat napping and semi-dreaming/thinking at the same time, just before falling into a full sleep). i really enjoy being in this state because i have had good success at using it to help me process any daily stresses that may be preoccupying my mind and it has helped me further process some of my trauma memories and the accompanying emotions. after an alpha/theta session, my husband will sit with me (usually cuddling or holding me) and he encourages me to discuss things that may have come up for me in the session. i have found that being able to discuss things that may have come up during the session and having that safe physical holding to be incredibly beneficial for fully processing or perhaps integrating some of the memories and emotions.

i'm very excited to hear some more about your progress in the future. also, don't hesitate to send a PM if you ever have a question or need some feedback. that way i may see your message sooner and be able to respond quicker

i agree...i find it frustrating that NFB isn't more accessible and affordable for people to do. honestly, i don't think i would have tried it, or even thought of it, if it was for trauma expert Bessel van Der Kolk discussing it (and specifically talking about Sebern Fisher) in his book, 'The Body Keep the Score'. i believe it is starting to get a little more attention than it use to, and fortunately, some insurance companies in the states are starting to see the benefits of covering it, but it is still slow to get the same attention that other modalities, like EMDR and DBT, have received over the years in helping with trauma. that is probably due to the fact that most of the research into NFB has been for ADD/ADHD over the years and the research in regards to the benefits for truama is definilty lacking in comparison. plus, i also wonder if the concept of 'hooking' ones brain up to a computer to play a game feels a bit off putting, strange, or too impersonal to some people as a form of therapy. for me, to help overcome this, i thought of it more as a form of physical therapy that my brain needed to help heal the damage my early childhood truama had caused.

Koru_Kiwi - thanks for telling me about your experiences too. It's really helpful to hear, and to have a point of comparison, since there aren't many people who are familiar enough with it to talk with.

So, I chatted with the guy helping me about how I had gotten a little nauseas from the training. He talked about using a different set up for the reward - instead of the rocket game, it's all audio. It just plays different tones (not actually music) as rewards. You can read a book while doing it (or watch the Bioexplorer screen, I assume, since I did this a little).

He also suggested the same thing you did, trying to lower the reward.

So I did this last night, used the tones with a reward that was lowered just 0.5Hz (11.5 - 14.5).

Oh wow - it was terrible! I'm sure it was the lowered reward, but it was soooo awful. Not while I was doing it (I don't understand why I don't feel the effects while doing it), but a few minutes after, I was washing the electrodes, I breathed out and felt like I was going to fall down. It literally felt like I had been drugged, and might lose consciousness... just so so so so slowed down. I tried listening to some fast music to help counteract it (it was the only thing I could think of, I probably should have got back online and tried to reach the guy to see if he could recommend something, but I felt really awful and it was kind of late). Slept poorly, then still felt pretty off this morning. I didn't feel like I had my brain back until after lunch (and chocolate).

Yikes. It was crazy. So the next time I train, I'm going to go back to the higher reward (12-15) and try the tones again, to see if that helps. I really do wish I could find a way to keep using the rocket game though, as it's pretty fun/engaging to me.

I can see why the fractals would be fun, and less frustrating! I think the concept of a "game" is kind of hard, because there's nothing you can consciously do to perform better - which I find frustrating too. With the rocket, I try to hold on to the idea that I don't have to do anything, but just watch it, like watching a movie.

Thanks for the tip about the cotton rounds! My ear clips seem to have electrodes on both sides (I add gel to both sides), so I'll have to ask him if it's OK to put something on one side.

Oh! And my "chat" was all online. My first check in phone call will be Friday! I'm looking forward to that, I think it will be helpful. I'm not very good about reaching out for help, so I've been a little shy about asking questions in the chat channel that I have.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to that.

When you did C4-A1, do you happen to remember how long you trained for at a time? They've got me starting with ~20 minutes, but said that they'd eventually bump it up to 30 (after they see how I react).

Your alpha-theta training sounds so much better than anything I've heard about it! But, you're really lucky to have that support from your husband! I'm on my own, so no one to help out here, but that sounds like such a nice way to do it! I think it will be awhile before I can get to the point of even thinking about AT training though... my brain definitely does not feel very stable or well-regulated at the moment!

I'm beat... need to try to get to bed early tonight since I didn't sleep well last night.

Thanks again! And, thank you for the offer to message you, I'll keep in touch.

apologies, i only have a moment for a quick response:

this is what i did too...started doing it for 20 mins and then eventually increased the time to 30 mins.

agreed, i didn't first start doing A/T training until i had addressed many of my truama symptoms and knew that i was more stable and regulated. it was about after four months after starting NFB that i started doing A/T training. perhaps journaling after doing A/T training could be helpful for processing too. also, not sure if you are still seeing a talk T, but at that time when i first started doing NFB, i was still seeing my talk T and i would also discuss some of the things that had come up from doing A/T training in my therapy sessions, especially if i still needed some help in processing them.