[Fresia]

I was woken at 3:30 this morning to 2 of the dogs fighting on the bed we were sleeping in with the 3rd then coming in and trying to jump in.

I suspect the younger one got up to move, got too close to the older one that is protective of HER area and she warned the younger one. As usual, the younger one, who is a rescue that never seemed to learn dog cues just ignored it, laid down anyway, and the older one went after her.

I couldn't get the light on to see who was who to break it off. Knocked the light over and my glasses off the end table trying to get my bearings. Unfortunately it was the older one and myself that got the worst of it. The younger one doesn't have a mark on her this time fortunately, at least one of them is ok. Unfortunately we had to go to the ER vet, patched up, and a vet bill the size of house payment later.... we are home.

I will have to go to the ER clinic or walk-in when it opens. I am trying to catch my breath right now and figure out what to to about the guarding issues now that I have inherited two dogs from my folks.

The younger dog guards me and bones from other dogs (not me) and the other older one guards her space/territory throughout the house.

If anyone has any suggestions about how to deal guarding issues, I am more than all ears because I can't handle any more wake-up calls like this.

[lizardlady]

Fresia, I have no idea for solutions, but wanted to offer sympathy.

[barbella]

I don't know either but am sending hugs.

[cakeladie]

Lord what a way to wake up. I am so sorry I don't have any suggestions other then no one sleeps with you. We had to ban the cats from our room at night. They can come in during the day and nap with me but not at night

[Fresia]

Thanks everyone for listening and for the support.

I have a meeting tonight with a behaviorist group that it seems the dogs stay with them for retraining and conditioning for guarding issues, aggression and phobias. I was given another name yesterday of a group that does in-home work and I will call them today for an appt/eval.

I am hesitant because so far most of the so-called "behavioralists" just want to work on discipline. sit, stay, come, heal. etc. My dogs are already disciplined and that's not their issue. There is something more going on here.

My inclination is towards the in-home group since that is where the incidents are happening, literally in the house, never outside; they are model citizens everywhere else. I have one recommendation for the in-home group.

My reasons for considering the other group where they stay there is that they have good recs, and that they train service and police dogs too. So they definitely have to know temperamental issues and cues. They are an hour away though which I am not thrilled about. There is part of me that is tempted because it would be a break to regroup, find my own balance; HOWEVER, I would sorely miss them on the other hand, and I need training too apparently because what I am doing is not helping them. I am not sure if they do that if the dogs stay with them. This is one of my many questions.

I will set up an appt to meet with each and see what they have to say. I just know what I am doing is not working. I need help blending these guys together and to deal with the stress now of the folks being gone. They all still look for them, bless their hearts.

If you can think of any other things that might be good to ask in case there are other things I haven't considered, please, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[lizardlady]

Could you crate one of the dogs at night so they don't have an opportunity to fight over the bed. It doesn't solve the overall problem, but would at least put an end to fights on the bed in the middle of the night.

How about asking your vet for a trainer recommendation?

Personally, the in home trainer sounds preferable to me. As you said, the problems are happening at home. Seems like the logical place to work on the problem. I also like the idea of you receiving training along with the dogs. I used to require the owners attend once per week when I trained horses. It didn't do any good for me to work with the horse. Solve whatever was going one, then send them home without teaching the owner how to deal with the problem.

[Fresia]

Really good points LL. I brought this up during the appointments. Thank you,

The in-home group isn't returning my calls. I interviewed three other places that I learned about and the one stood out by far and of course it is the most expensive.

They showed me how what I was doing was the the problem. The dogs have the run of the place, no leadership, that I cater to them and why they don't listen to me for some things because it is only when it suits them. As a result that is why they are fighting for their position in the household.

It was amazing. Withing 10 minutes, the the main issue with each dog individually, I was shown how to change the behavior. No force, no treats. They did it, then showed me how just with my presence. They had they dog that is the aggressive one calmer and not trying to attack within 20 minutes, listening to me. They had the fearful and shy flighty one that gets aggressive when cornered, does not like anything new or change and hates anyone but family, not only walking up to a barking police dog but being held by a complete stranger doing nothing, calm as can be. SHe is 6 and that has never happened. Then showed me how how to elicit the same thing in her.

It was good thing I was sitting for most of it because they would have had to pick me off of the floor otherwise.

2 of the 3 dogs are considered highest priority and automatically qualify for rehabing; they will stay with them for 3 weeks for reconditioning if I want. I go once a week for several hours to work with each of them and will bring the 3rd to work with them as a group on those days They will give me assignments to work on the 3rd one and me at home in the meantime. Then there will be things to transition, help for the home transition, and classes should need follow up after the program once home.

It is so expensive. I know most people would be crazy to spend that much. So in looking at the options. We exist as is, I spend that much in vet bills, have actually already and even more over time if continue as is; then there is the stress for all of us. What kind of life is that. If I rehome the main problem dog, I don't know that I can live with myself responsibly and morally given her issues. She won't be adopted living in a shelter/sanctuary if find a no kill shelter. What king of life is that.

I am not looking forward to the stress of more debt either on top of student loans and the medical bills. However the day to day stress of living, I can't take this anymore. I am not sure there is much choice but to do the program. I need help.

Thanks for listening. Will let y'all know how it goes.

[Fresia]

I drop them off today. I thought I be more excited at the prospect of us turning our lives around but all I am is nervous, scared, and sad.

I knew I would miss them but it has started already even though they are here sitting with me. Matter of fact my laptop is on one of them as I type, draped across my lap (my 70 lb lap dog), with the other two by my sides as elbow props. It's like they know.

Can I really give them up for 3 weeks?! How will they be treated? How will they be when they come back; will their personalities change?!

We need help though. We can't live with frustration and, more importantly, fear for our safety anymore

So many emotions. It brings tears; they are overwhelming.

[Fresia]

So I am so very excited to see my critters tomorrow. Jumping up and down inside in fact.

But ohhhhh, how I have some trepidation though as it will be our first interaction since their being there and our first class. I am a bit nervous. It is ironic... I am a strong person and leader at work in and everything else that I do but when it comes to my dogs, I am putty, more than putty, more like mud. I hope I can do this. I have to be able to do this. This is good for them and for me. I hope I can step up to the plate. I should start saying instead, I can do this. I wish I could stop shaking though.

[cakeladie]

You will do fine. All you are trying to do is get help for them and you. I am sure it hurts and you worry but someone was bound to get hurt if you didn't do something. So when you miss them or get nervous just repeat to yourself I am doing the right thing I am doing the right thing. They will be happier in the long run

Good luck

[Fresia]

Well it went really amazing with the one dog, the fearful one of people and objects, even though he said this is the hardest situation to help. SHe came out trotting, not with her tail between her legs or her ears down into a room full of people and other dogs; she was actually wagging her tail. He was funny in saying, she is is actually just hoping someone will take her home right now, However the whole time I saw a real difference in her. Objects she normally wouldn't go near she hopped on or into with only slight hesitation or none, but no real brakes. It was lovely to see her come out of her shell.

The other dog is another story but it is more my issue than hers. SHe is the aggressive one towards other dogs. I kept bracing for her to bolt towards the other dogs in the center. He told me I needed to relax and let go on the leash, she was feeling my tension, and responding, which makes it worse. Logically I know this from my horses but instinctively it is ingrained now to prepare for the worse. He reminded me if I let up, the worse that can happen, I still have the leash and it is loose, she will, for lack of a better term, "lynch " herself in essence when she gets to then end of it and know she can't go after the others; since I have hold, I shouldn't worry.

It makes perfect sense but I didn't realize how fearful I am about this more than I care to admit. The fights have rattled me more than I thought. I have more in common with the other dog than I ever considered. With my PTSD, I should have known my reaction would be fear. I don't like confrontation or fights. I have a lot of work to do. This will be good for all of us.

The curious thing was that in the middle of an exercise he left me alone with the one standing on a bridge to make her stay there, the aggressive one. Ironically, she did not want to get on it or stay on it. She had to be guided more strongly to get on it. We were just standing there and I just naturally as she was within inches of my hand and I petted her, thinking it would calm her stay put. The trainer was across the room with someone. He saw it and asked what I thought I was doing. With hesitation said," I was petting her." He told me that," do I realize I just undid everything I just worked to do with her?" He said that she has the attention span of a 4 year old but with a past of about 30 seconds. Petting her then rewarded her for that moment when she was not paying attention to me but to everything else in the room, and not listening, and let her know it was ok. Sure enough, the next couple times we tried it, she wasn't paying attention to me but to everything else and refusing to do the exercise.

He indicated that we love on our dogs like no other animals. We wouldn't pet and praise our children the way we do our dogs, if we did all the time like we do our dogs, we'd have spoiled children. Why do we do it with them? It's not to say they don't deserve our praise, they do absolutely, but it has to be in the right moment with them given THEIR mindset, not ours, otherwise you are rewarding them for the wrong things.

I am so guilty of this. I wouldn't praise my kids as often as I give kudos to the dogs, higher pitched voice, good boy or girl, a lot. I don't talk to any other creature the way I talk to my dogs. I don't know why I do it with them. I do need to think about this to change some things, because I do have spoiled dogs that have gone to the far side and taken over.

[Fresia]

So it has been 3 weeks, the end of the training with them. My turn now to continue at home.

I had a private session last night. I worked with both dogs. I had already been thinking and mentioned I was concerned about bringing both home at the same time, needing to work with both when I feel so little equipped given especially the one dog's issues. I have some skills but I don't feel near confident enough yet.

They agreed and said they were going to ask to keep the one longer, she is dog aggressive and fear aggressive at the same time, a difficult combination. She has bitten two of the trainers. Does not respect people. I know she does not respect me either. I am a wimp when it comes to my dogs, I turn to mush. Projecting leader is not in my repertoire yet, not good for her.

They thought it was best I bring home the shy, fearful one first as this is the hardest to train because I have to earn her trust back. She does not think I can protect her from the other dogs. It will be a good time to build that relationship back and work on my skills in the process with her and continue with the one still at home to get ready for the other one. I agreed wholeheartedly.

The shy one came home last night with a lot of rules and guidelines for the first several weeks. The hardest to adhere to is that she is all wiggly and tail wagging glad to see me and one the rules is that I cannot pet her, neither of them for the time being. They have to earn it and not until they respect me. No fear involved, just until they pay close attention and do their exercise correctly over time, first time asked, but it will take practice.

I felt like I was in withdrawal. I so wanted to hug them, rub their ears, scratch their necks and backs, belly rubs. Nope. It sounds simple but decades of habit is harder to break than I imagined. I actually felt uncomfortable last night like I was coming out of my skin. This morning was even harder because they are testing me today, whining. It breaks my heart. What hurts more though is the thought of going back to the way things were and someone getting hurt again, or worse, killed. I am so very proud of myself that so far I have not caved, then again it has been less than 24 hours but every hour has been a struggle. ***sigh*** This is just harder than I thought for completely different reasons than I imagined.

[lizardlady]

Oh Fresia you are stronger than me. I would've been down on the floor scratching and petting and making a fuss.

[Fresia]

This first week home has been rough.

The one that went for rehab has tested me all week. Good news is that I am developing a spine, aggravating at times but standing my ground.

The one that didn't go for training is just so excited that the other one is home, she was hardly listening at the beginning of the week. Since then I have discovered that she is stubborn in spades. I need a new shoulder from her pulling it out all the time.

Good news, by the end of this week, their lessons are going really well. Shockingly so. If you had seen us at the beginning of the week, even I did not think it was going to be possible.

So I have caved on the petting since they are doing so well. In the morning when they wake up, they are all wiggly and so glad to see me when they come out of their crates, they sit on their own now so I pet them then. Then at the end of the day after doing their work, I pet them when they go to bed.

I am having a harder time than I thought though for a completely different reason that would have realized at this point; I thought I was beyond it. I have PTSD from an attack/rape in high school. We had dogs at home, felt safe there but when went to college, I did not feel safe in the dorm and almost failed out actually because of it; after first year I moved into an apartment, and got a dog immediately. I have had one ever since. Their presence and to alert me of things gives me peace of mind to sleep.

With them in their crates now in this house, there is no room in the bedroom for them. They are downstairs. I find myself most nights, sleeping down on the couch to be near them. It is not agreeing with my neck and back. So darned if I do and don't. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I did not realize this was still an issue for sleep but apparently it is even after all these decades. Going to have to figure something else out to cope with this.

[lizardlady]

Fresia, is there room in your bedroom for one crate? That way you could have one dog in the room with you.

[Fresia]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

Fresia, is there room in your bedroom for one crate? That way you could have one dog in the room with you.

I have been considering this after sleeping on the sofa again last night and measured the crate to see how I could get one of them up there. The only place there is ironically is that there is room is in the master walk-in closets since both folks are gone now, all three crates even would fit, this has advantages: 1. they'd be with me at night, 2. it would help when showing the house since it is for sale not to have crates all over the place. 3. there would be no territorial issues because they'd all be together. Except that the house is not air conditioned, it is cooler for them downstairs in the heat of the day when I'm gone. COuld put a fan on them, the closet is the coolest up there since it is on the far side of the sun hitting the house. Then there is putting them in a closet in general but of course would keep the door open. It opens to the master that has light coming from all sides so they would not be in the dark during the day, and coukld leave a light on too. Would that be crazy and cruel? Yes because too if there were a fire, they would not be able to get them out. Can you tell I'm desperate and not thinking straight. I do need help as I've officially lost it. Perhaps it would be easier to move a bed downstairs, I should get a cot?!

Perhaps having them with me was just a bandaid in the first place, it's time to rip it off. I'll contact T, to see about some suggestions to work on this, see what she thinks to try being without them. It has been a long time coming; I am in a safe place; I do have a security system too; they'll still bark if they hear something, so perhaps it is time. It just makes me nervous crating them in general if someone were to come in, not because crates are bad, far from it, just because they cannot protect me from inside their crates and they cannot get out if something were to happen, like a fire. This is killing me all over again, bringing it all back. ***Sigh****

[lizardlady]

How about a cot or futon while you work on this with your T?

Why do they have to stay in crates at night? Is it part of their training?

[Fresia]

The crating is merely temporary until getting to a certain point in their training so it is not forever, which will be nice. The nice thing too is that they were crate trained from the beginning when I got them. I have always had one set up as their place/safe place for them to go when they they need it (or if they are sick/surgeries) and some times they have used it periodically over the last couple of years just to hang out/rest. So they are comfortable.

They come out 8 to 12 times a day for lessons and walks. They are exhausted when they go back in; completely crash. So they are being well exercised mentally and physically. It is to control their environment so they learn to trust me again that I can keep them safe from each other and to learn the lessons when with them, listening to me as a leader instead of looking to each other (fighting it out) for leadership. That is the theory.

Gradually they will be reintroduced to each other and get back their "privileges" at different times once they know I can keep them safe and I know they will listen no matter what. For some it may happen sooner, with others it may take longer depending on how they respond. Two are home with me and so far, the one is doing really, really well. The one is stubborn in spades and she is trying my patience; however thank goodness I am a very patient person. The third is still with them if that tells you anything.

I realized that I am not doing well to even think about what I was considering with their crates is definitely a sign of that. I don't know where my head was except that the lack of sleep is taking its toll. The fear of having all three of them again and the possibility that this may not work, returning to the fighting, and what I will do but yet the irony is that I want them with me, two were my folks' dogs, it makes me feel closer to them in a way that they are still here......I cried all day yesterday. I realized yesterday afternoon that I am scared, waves of grief returned for the losses as of late, frustration, fear, fatigue, job stress, and the flashbacks aren't helping... I need to go back into therapy to cope; there are too many changes at once. I am just a plain ol' run-of-the-mill mess. ****sigh, as I shake my head; good grief, more tears, could the waterworks please stop.****

[lizardlady]

{*{*{*{*Fresia*}*}*}*}

If the crating at night is temporary why not get a cot or air mattress so you can sleep near them at night while you work your way through this? There are some really nice air mattresses on the market. They have the advantage that you could deflate it and put it out of sight if someone comes to look at the house.

Hon, you have a ton on your plate right now. Seeing a T for some help getting through it sounds like a good idea.

[Fresia]

So things have been curious the last couple of days. I admit that I have been hesitant with some of the training and questioning it. I have decided to grow a spine and to go all in. A friend suggested pretending to have the confidence to work with them until I do; fake it until I make, it principle.

Surprisingly all of the sudden too a light bulb seemed to go off with the one dog that has been stubborn; she is taking to the lessons now and listening so much better. Is it me or the timing, I'm not sure. The other is doing really well still.

So I decided to try sleeping in the master upstairs away from them, faking that as if I'm not afraid too. It actually went ok. A few bumps in the middle of the night but I got better sleep when I did sleep.

I finally figured how to the least obtrusively fit 3 XL crates in the house downstairs so that when I show the house they will be the least in the way, Someone said they are changing the law in town to 3 or more dogs you need a kennel license. I look like kennel. Just what I need though. Right now the statute is 4 or more dogs. I have to call about this Monday to find out.

I am still anxious about the other one. One more week before she will come home. I need an even bigger confidence pill before that. If they are describing her as trouble, redeemable, but difficult, and I am having trouble with the "easy" ones I have at home now.... (?) Oy. I look at my scars on my arms from the fights, painful reminder for them and for me, and it just brings back the fear. I can't go back to that for us though. I am looking forward to seeing her tomorrow and how she will be. Hmmm (?).

[Fresia]

The last dog, youngest, may come home Friday. We are going to have a private class, bringing the others together with her to expose them more beforehand for some more lessons together and see how it goes. We did this last weekend.

I thought I was ready until the older one reacted violently to seeing the youngest. She remembered instantly what happened between them (a really big fight that sent them both to the ER, me too,) as if no time had passed. It instantly sent the hair on my arms and head on end, and turned my stomach with fear, questioning whether I could handle this. Supposedly I will be given more skills to manage things Friday. We'll see what they say and how it goes. ALl of them listen much better to me one-on-one though and things are much better in that respect. So there is a lot of progress there; however, there is a lot more work to do with my dysfunctional family. I just wonder if they will ever be able to exist, let alone play, together again. So ready or not, that's the goal.

Things have been rough sleeping away from them. When I do sleep, it is better sleep on one hand in that I have fewer aches and pains, amazing what a real bed will do but I wake a lot with every little noise and ironically most of the noises are of them bumping/leaning against the sides crates.

So what's that expression, 'feel the fear and do it anyway.' That is my new mantra.

[Fresia]

She did not come home with me. We agreed I wasn't ready.

We are stepping up classes to private lessons several times a week to focus more skills to handle their issues together and on bringing them together, first with two of them then with three together over several months. That way in the meantime too I can work on more confidence with the two I have, with the 3rd, learn more skills for each, and feel better to about how to handle situations should they arise.

They pointed out that fear is one of the hardest things to overcome and since they have attacked me, another PTSD situation all over again and it is a catch 22 of me trying to lead but will always flinch with hesitation because of knowing now what can happen. They will sense this fear, it is weakness to them, and I cannot lead then. That will always be there otherwise.

Knowledge overcomes fear so building that up I will feel better about being able to handle things and a better leader. Issues will still come up but instead of being fearful and saying "oh crap, oh crap, oh crap!" and escalating things with the fear; my response and mindset over time will then be a calm, "cut out that crap!; this isn't happening" and keep them from escalating, stopping them in their tracks instead.

If I had any doubts about picking the right place, those doubts are gone now. I think I am getting more therapy from dog training than my own therapy and more than I bargained for all around.. Better late than never and from wherever it comes, I am grateful. I just hope I can overcome the fear. I won't be recognizable when this is done with this mental makeover. One giant step for dog kind and man kind.....

[splitimage]

Fresia,

So glad that you and your dogs are getting the training needed to have a happy and healthy canine family. I understand about the PTSD bit. But I have every confidence that you'll learn. Glad they're keeping the agressive dog for more training.

I'll be thinking of you as you work through this.

splitimage

[Fresia]

Doggie psychology is amazing and so very different from our own. Apparently that is where myself and others have gotten into trouble is by projecting what we think onto them. The difference in learning and turning that thinking around is making a huge difference.

The 3rd one still is not home yet. We have been bringing 2, and then the 3 of them together with various exercises to show they will be ok and that I am in charge, not them. It is astounding to me now to see how their minds work during these exercises, subtle cues of avoidance or stress, that I in the past would have interpreted a different way.

Like did you know.... a dog will never turn its back on something it considers a threat not because they are paying attention; panting is not always because they are hot or thirsty but because it could be stress (if their tongue curls/cups at the end...this is thirst when they are panting to know the difference); and a wagging tail is not always a friendly wag as there are attack and stress wags as well it depends on the rest of their body positioning to tell. They avoid things just like we do, of course, by running away, but will also just not look at something or just possibly turning their head to not see something to pretend it isn't there; it is not indifference as they could still be stressed about it. Licking their lips or yawning are signs of stress, not hunger or fatigue/boredom.

The trainers are not just helping me with me dogs at this point; they are helping me with my PTSD inadvertently though they don't know this, building my confidence back up. It is a lovely feeling not to feel so afraid all the time. The funniest thing is a motto that they said I should keep in mind and that I have adopted in action for the dogs to help empower me to keep the dogs inline, but I caught myself saying in my head at work a couple of times (mind you, definitely not out loud, though I would have like to) "cut out that crap!, this isn't happening under my watch."

[lizardlady]

Fresia, I'm so glad this is working out for you. The trainer sounds like a gem. I love the motto they taught you. I am going to use it in my head at work too!