[Londoner]

I'm hoping someone can help in
quickly answering a question .. From what I can see, my brother is in a highly
toxic & abusive marriage .. With two children who are also often subjected to
psychological and emotional warfare . I've tried telling him whenever I can to
read about it .. (They live in a different country) - but he simply won't take
it on. The more I read the more I understand that I think his wife is a
sociopath, bpd, npd - she checks boxes of most disorders. Very very dark character. My relationship with them keeps going on
& off .. I try hard to remain present for my brother and the children but then
she does something so shocking and unacceptable that I'm pushed away again. And
although i try to understand that she's unwell .. I find myself in a cycle with
them of speaking terms then cutting off. They demand that if we are to have a
relationship with them as a family it must be with all of them and not to
communicate only with my brother and the children. He demands that if I want to
have a relationship with him I need to be on speaking terms with her as well. My
parents are also in this cycle of wanting to cut off but trying to keep contact
for my brother.

Could you please message me with your thoughts and advise on
how best to behave for a sibling who is drifting further and further away into
an abusive relationship. Do I find a way to remain present and set boundaries
when she does cross them? Or do I let him/them go ? Id really
appreciate thoughts and advise on how us as a family (my parents and I )
should best handle this very very difficult and painful dynamic we are in. It's
so hard watching him become a shadow of himself, unreachable and in denial ..
Also hard to continue allowing her dreadful behavior when we do see it towards
him, the children and us.

He flies in in two days alone for a work meetings -We are not on the best of terms at the moment

Please help!!

[CANDC]

Hi Londoner, welcome to Psych Central. Sorry your brother resists your intentions to inform him of the problems in his marriage. Accepting him and his wife may be the only way to stay in good terms. Your brother seems to interpret your remarks as judgments. Fixing others problems or giving advice is often resented. Learning to be an active listener can be the road to be able to talk to anyone.

That does not mean you must be blind, but see that she is suffering from mental illness and have compassion for her may be a higher step. An learning to listen.

I would try an apology and agree to his terms as long as his wife does not abuse you or trigger you. Maybe keeping your distance is needed at this time. It is not easy when the person refuses your help. Sibling rivalry could be an issue also. Then he many never take your advice.

Many people here at PC find they can share these feelings and what they are going through with the confidence that people go through similar things and can empathize. So many forums are offered as well as Chatrooms (after you have 5 posts or comments on others posts). Depression chat meets on Thursday night at 9pm EST and Anxiety Wednesday at 8PM.

You can also be an active member in other ways like supporting others in their questions, reading articles and posts http://forums.psychcentral.com that are applicable to your area of concern.

Please feel free to private message me or any of the Community Liaisons by left clicking on the name in blue to the left of their post) for questions or just to share.

[Londoner]

Thank you so much for your reply and advice. I understand that I can try to simply become present in their life and set the necessary boundary if she crosses a line with me. What do I do when I see her cross a line with my brother and/or children? Is it my right to also calmly say something along the lines of: I feel uncomfortable with the way you just spoke with my brother.

Or is it not my place to say anything? Or even protect the children when she rages at them

Thank you so much

[popuri88]

Maybe the strategy is to really accept everything (except being abused by her). If your brother doesn't see you as someone judgy who's around just to check things and collect evidence of how weird his wife is, chances are that he'll eventually confide to you when he's overwhelmed (and if things are really that bad he will) and then you can act. It might take time as you have already accused her and he's on his defensive stance by now. What exactly is she doing?

Of course this can just make no sense in your situation. Is it worth it to make an effort and try to pursue their trust... and can you do this since they're so far away?

[comethisfar]

Londoner, I agree with what's been said: judgment breeds resentment. Try a position of listening, empathizing and understanding. That means not offering advice, not pointing out what you find abnormal and most of all not helping when your help isn't asked for. I know it's very hard when all you are trying to do is help your brother see "the truth". But try to consider this truth also: your brother is entitled to his own life and his own decisions (and mistakes) without being told what to do! It is likely that coping with his situation on a daily basis is a tremendous effort already and that the last thing he needs is coping with his family members trying to change his life!
Empathy and understanding do not mean that you have to agree! When your brother seeks your opinion and help I believe it is right to tell him what you think and how you see things. You are likely to be amazed at the difference between giving the exact same advice when it is asked for versus when it was not. I live with an MI partner and the only time my POV even as much as reaches him is when I come from a position of empathy and acceptance or when he has expressly asked for my input. Every other form of pointing out some of his outrageous behavior sets off an even more outrageous chain of reactions, denial and complete shut-down. Your brother is not MI but it sounds like he is the target of such behavior and hence is likely to have developed some of the same coping mechanisms. I have shut out some of my best friends just because I was tired of hearing over and over that I shouldn't accept this or that or should just get out of the relationship. I felt as if they had no idea at all what it was really like. From my family I received real empathy and never any pressure to make decisions which eventually led me to understand that I needed to do this for myself.
I also believe that setting boundaries with his wife is a healthy thing to do to protect yourself. It may help to communicate those and the consequences to both your brother and his wife. I have learnt that setting boundaries is important for oneself because it defines what you will accept or not accept to not get hurt or abused. They are deeply personal, based on your values and experiences. Hence, it is impossible for you know when your brother's wife crosses a boundary with your brother. You are evaluating her behavior against YOUR boundary of what you find abusive. You are probably right that the most people would agree with you and hence the "norm" is to see her behavior as abusive, but in a personal relationship setting norms is almost always understood as passing judgment: "you drink too much", " you are dressed too lightly for this weather. Why did you not put on a proper jacket?" - as opposed to "your sweater looks light for this wind, are you feeling cold? I am sorry you are feeling cold. Can we do something to stop you from feeling cold?" It is a long patient journey but I sincerly hope it will work the same wonders for you as it has for me. I wish you all the best!

[MissFiona]

I've often found that when you stop 'going on about it' and actually start saying nothing about the situation and just listening to what the other person says for a day, without any input from your side of the fence, that you can gather a lot of insights. And often the other person will open up more. Hope you have a nice meet up with your bro!

[Raindropvampire]

My aunt was in an abusive relationship. When she felt we were judging her and tearing down her relationship then she clung to him even more. She didn't leave until we backed off and just told her we were there for her but it was her life her decision. And then there was an incident that was her breaking point. However; I truly believe that even with the incident she would have stayed if she felt we were still trying to break them up or judging her.

This may not be a welcome insight, but when you ask "Should I be doing more to stop this?" you may be overestimating how much you can really exert any meaningful control over the situation so that it works out more towards your comfort. She's got him locked into a marriage with two kids far away, and meaningfully modifying her behavior or their interaction might not be a realistic ambition. Your brother seems to have chosen a strategy of appeasement, for his own reasons. As much as it hurts to watch, you may not be able to do anything about it, so maybe you should stop blaming yourself for your inaction. Best wishes to you and yours.

[starfruit504]

Originally Posted by Londoner

Thank you so much for your reply and advice. I understand that I can try to simply become present in their life and set the necessary boundary if she crosses a line with me. What do I do when I see her cross a line with my brother and/or children? Is it my right to also calmly say something along the lines of: I feel uncomfortable with the way you just spoke with my brother.

Or is it not my place to say anything? Or even protect the children when she rages at them

Thank you so much

I wouldn't take a confrontation stance, but I would be careful, observant, and cool as a cucumber. Your brother is a grown man and he can subject himself to whomever he wants. His children, on the other hand, don't have that luxury. It's important that you take a supportive role in the kids' so they know they can come to you at any time about anything; doing this, you may just save a kid from being abused. If she is physically abusive towards them, call the authorities. If she is verbally and emotionally abusive, advise them to speak to their school counselor about what is happening at home. Be a supportive uncle.