What is Justice?

I no longer know what justice is. Does anyone else?

I used to believe and pray that that my predator would know the harm harm he had inflicted on me. With that that knowledge I assumed he would understand and feel and feel remorse. Today I know that is not true.

After that I would pray that every ounce of pain I felt he would feel it in his own way...clearly if he "felt" the pain he would understand and feel remorse. Today I know that is not true.

You cannot change someone else...or force them to change. You cannot love them enough, endure the abuse long enough..you cannot change someone else.

TODAY I pray for peace. The greatest "justice" that can be served is loving yourself and having love within your heart.

Tonight, as always, I will pray for strenth, courage, wisdom, and love.

Justice does not exist. If it does take place someone will always feel badly. Peace does not come easy.

This post has brought me to tears.

I understand this. I'm going through the very same situation, I'd say.

We separated 4 years ago. It's been 3 years of therapy trying to understand and deal with things, it's been 2 years on this legal hell and that is the one thing I beg out of this: justice.

I wander between hate, regret, misery, depression, PTSD and all the horrible things that came along with it. Nothing really makes much sense but it doesn't matter. What I keep thinking to myself at times is that he almost killed me, he will kill someone eventually and I wasn't strong enough even to defend myself, let alone stop it from hurting others.

I should have sent him back to jail back then, police officers would tell me all I had to do was present charges and the DA office would pick it up from there. But I was so scared for my life, I ran as far and as fast as I could and I wasn't thinking at all.

Instead of pressing charges I did a full research around our area of who would take his case (He was diagnose as a Narcissist Personality Disorder borderline sociopath). And as always this is some sort of a joke due to the fact that he will never change, he is the same piece of human waste he can be and it wont ever get better. It will just get worse.

I do not feel I've got wisdom, courage, peace or love. Let alone strenght. No matter how much I'd pray. No matter how much I'd fight and try so far. It's complicated. It's very hurtful.

I don't know now what difference would it make that he would feel any remorse, given it won't change anything. Being objective, he just couldn't because he's a sociopath. I guess I tried to make sense out of something that doesn't have a meaning. It just is.

And I keep hoping life would turn around. I do not think is fair while my situation is as horrid as it could be, he is blissfully happy out there ruining lifes. And possibly on the edge of hurting someone just as we speak.

I have paid over $20k in legal fees, do not get me started on the medical fees. And he just gets to walk free as if he never did a damn thing wrong in his life.

There's gotta be a balance here, maybe it takes time but what goes around comes around. I gotta believe. There must be justice one way or another.

I remember this famous quote that says "Justice is truth in action". Truth should prevail, no matter how late it must come.

(((1982))),
Yes, it sounds as though we have some things in common. They can't change, nor do they have a desire to change. It just is.. as you stated. It's a hard pill to swallow.
I try very hard to NOT think of him. After all it is just a game to them. The illusions they paint of themselves is beyond comprehension.
It is complicated and very hurtful.
There is an expression choose your battles wisely. I no longer wish to participate in the games he presents...
He now "plays" the legal system.
I gave up trying to retrieve the $, after all they NEVER pay. My safety and my sons is the objective.
He has started again..but the days of abuse are over.
Please try and stay strong.
Truth should prevail..however sometimes it does not.
I've tried to focus on myself and rebuilding my life..it's been a long road.

(((Cotton ball))),

I so hear what you are trying to say here. The past few days since Saturday morning was so challenging for me. And yesterday too much came right up in my face and today I am SOOO exhausted. And in the mix was an incredible amount of anger coming out of me and then I hear this word from you and unhappyguy and 1982 and it lies deep within myself as well.

Saturday morning my daughter called all upset and talked to my husband. Her boyfriend is a binge alcoholic (just like her father was) and though she put her foot down and they got an old farmhouse and she worked SO hard to fix it up and she was getting it just so charming, he went out and slipped. She didn't know where he was when she called and she was hysterical. And I know exactly what she was feeling, I could run it through my mind, the stages that take placed when this happens.

The first thing is a kind of shock, and then comes anger, and theres fear and an abandonment as well. Then even though you are overwhelmed with emotion the first thing that needs to take place is you have to find them, just so you know they are somehow safe, because after all YOU DO LOVE THEM. And then when you see them, somewhere passed out, in her case he was naked on someones couch where everyone could see him. Well, then you want to make sure they can wake up, and then when they do that, YOU CAN FEEL ALL THE OTHER FEELINGS, the embarassment, the incredible anger, the lies and how it makes you feel SO INCREDIBLY BETRAYED. And then there is such a loss of WHAT TO DO AND YET YOU JUST WANT TO RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN FROM THEM AND ALL THE PAIN THEY CAUSE, BUT THERE IS THE ONE THING THAT HOLDS YOU BACK, "LOVE".

My daughter came running home and I was in the shower when she came because I had to get ready to do some jobs and I CANNOT JUST CALL IN SICK when I work.
I looked out the window and could see my husband holding her tight in his arms and
she was just crying and crying. And I knew to the depths of me EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS FEELING. But I could not allow myself to go there because I had to keep it together so I could work. And I think you all know that with PTSD it is very hard to shut out the memories that are so upsetting. I don't even know how I managed, because I was shaking and struggling.

She ended up spending the day with a friend looking for a place to live. She had her and her boyfriends dog with her, well she gave this dog to him as a birthday present as a puppy. But this dog was never his, it completely imprinted with my daughter.
And WOW did this black lab inprint with my daughter. I wish you could see it, it copies her facial expressions, and it even bears its teeth in a smile JUST LIKE SHE DOES WHEN SHE INTERACTS WITH IT. Wow I never saw such a strong bonding.
And when her boyfriend talked to her, he wanted the dog and threatened to call the police to get it. That too was a reminder to me that when we share an additional life with an alcoholic, sadly they can have rights, even when they are truely irresponsible.

My daughter stayed with a good friend and came by again yesterday. It was the first time we really a holiday together as a family in over a year. And my daughter was so lost and morning that she was going to lose this farmhouse that she put so much work into to make it a home. And it was so hard to comfort her because I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT SHE IF FEELING. But it felt good to be there for my child as well and I was strong for her.

Then we took her down over to the pond and the dog was swimming and we were enjoying ourselves. And suddenly my negligent neighbor appeared, the man that caused so much damaged to my family and my life. He was asking about the dog, wanting to make sure it wasn't HIS dog trespassing again. But he has people over and the dog he was talking about it no longer alive. So it was clear to me that he just wanted to rattle my cage somehow.

Well, I could feel the RAGE, RAGE, CONSUMING MY BODY AND MY MIND. I had the right to have this time ON MY PROPERTY WITH MY CHILD and WHY IS IT THAT HE HAS TO APPEAR TO DISRUPT THAT "AGAIN". Needless to say I was not friendly to this neighbor AT ALL. And he had some questions and I made it clear he was intruding and that MY LIFE HAS BEEN ALL ABOUT PICKING UP THE PIECES FROM HIS NEGLIGENCE. And he backed down and walked away.

But that didn't stop my RAGE inside and I had to walk away from my daughter and I went up to the barn and went inside to TRY TO GET CONTROL BACK. My daughter doesn't understand PTSD and I WANTED THE DAY TO BE ABOUT HER, NOT MY PTSD.
When I went in the barn I was consumed by so many minni like flashbacks where I could remember every place I was so angry and the other confrontations with abusers.
And I was also SO ANGRY THAT MY HUSBAND WAS NOT THERE AS HE HAD GONE OUT TO PICK UP SOME FOOD FOR DINNER. So AGAIN I HAD BEEN ALONE LIKE SO MANY TIMES I WAS CAUGHT OFF GUARD BY ABUSERS.

I am SO EXHAUSTED TODAY and that word JUSTICE is SO IN FORFRONT OF MY MIND AS WELL. I am so angry that MY NEIGHBOR HAD TO INTERRUPT MY DAY AND MY TIME WITH MY DAUGHTER, BECAUSE HIS NEGLIGENCE CAUSED SO MUCH DAMAGE TO MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY DAUGHTER.

I have not spoken to this man in a year, WHY DID HE HAVE TO INTRUDE ON ME AND MY CHILD YESTERDAY?

I just want a day with MY DAUGHTER AND MY HUSBAND ON OUR FARM, I HAVE THAT RIGHT!!!! And there is this entity there that is INVADING THAT. And THAT HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES IN MY LIFE, EVER SINCE I CAN REMEMBER.

You know it is hard enough to suffer from this dam disorder. To see how hard it was in my life to be happy. And here I was LIVING THE SAME THING the minute I got permission to be happy with my family.

REVENGE? JUSTICE? I cannot really see that right now, I am worn out and tired today. And I hope I am not hijacking this thread.

Open Eyes

(((open))
Never. Threads are meant to be shared in my opinion. I need to get ready for work, but will respond tonight. Hang in there!!
Hugs,
Cotton

I agree with Cotton, you are definitely not hijacking! Threads are meant to be shared, and where else can we get understanding, if nothing else, than here? I am so sorry to hear of both of your situations, and although I have no great words to help soothe, I am sending hugs towards both of you.

(((Thanks Cotton ball))),

Wow, I am so completely exhausted today. I have an appointment with my T today, but to be honest, I don't even think I have the energy to drive the 40 minute drive to get to him, and even if I do, and talk?, how will I make it home?

And I also am worried about my daughter because I know the stages of what comes after a drunken stooper. And I need to be there for my child and I am wondering if I can. And I don't know what is going to happen next. And this weekend coming up I have a big job for a very wealthy client that is booking out my whole weekend. I can't be in pieces and I need the money so badly. My daughter needs her mother, not the woman that is so crippled by this dam PTSD that she doesn't understand.

I have been working so hard on my recovery this past year, and to have this bomb go off? Oh, why could I just have time to repair gently with my daughter? I feel like I am trying to run and help my daughter whom I love more than life itself and I have this ball and chain (that no one can really see) that I am dragging as I am trying to reach her to help her.

Open Eyes

Ugh, the kicker? We have my daughter's boyfriend mow our lawn as he is owns his own landscape business. As I am sitting here he is out mowing our lawn and my dogs want to go out and I don't want to go out there. This is just too bazaar! I don't care if my dogs poop on the floor at this point. I am trying to remain calm because I have been in bad things where I was held up in my room because it wasn't safe to go outside it.

Sigh...I am being tested so much, I need a break.

I just thought I would say that I got to talk with my therapist via phone instead of going to him, which was such a help. I actually like doing the phone for an hour, I didn't have run around to get to him, it was more relaxing for me, especially today.

My therapist told me that I am squarely in the second stage of my recovery from PTSD. I am more aware of all the triggers and memories now and when something happens like what I am discribing here, I trace it back to other times in my life when I felt the same.

In the first stage of recovery work, we are so taken by these flashbacks and troubling emotions that it takes a while for it all to come forward. I have talked about this too and in my own discription I have told others the importance of getting all the cards on the table in therapy. For those who have experienced CSA that can be hard to retrieve or put on that table, I know it has been hard for me. But the goal is to do your best to get things out there, even if you feel embarassed, because once you do, resolve can begin. And I will remind again, being kind to yourself no matter what is crucial.

What we do for each other here, what those have done for me in this thread, is very important and helpful in the recovery work with PTSD. We need each other, because we all can relate and as we do that we establish a safe place that goes beyond whatever we have managed to establish in each of our environments outside PC.

What happened to me was very hard on me this weekend. But the difference from this happening in the first stage of PTSD in comparison to where I am now in my own recovery, is that I now know where everything that upsets me comes from. It is all there, and I did experience that in the barn when I distanced from my daughter to regroup. In the first stage we just deal with emotional duress and confusion and may get intruded on by some flashbacks or memories that make us feel crazy. We are NOT crazy, we have PTSD.

I have realized today that once we can finally intellectualize our history and how it comes out in PTSD, it is much easier to lower the effects of the emotional duress.
So think about this, it would make sense because as human beings we are always afraid of the unknown and when that happens we have troubling emotions. These emotions encourage us to work on discovering a way or resolve somehow so that we can NOT be overwhelmed with emotions.

This strong desire for "JUSTICE" is pretty tricky. But if you really think about it, we are designed to want that. And I happened to watch a special I had seen before on 60 minutes where they have designed a program for the troops called Operation Proper Exit. And I can really see how that would really help with PTSD. And I can see that because of this ongoing lawsuit regarding my neighbor and his negligence, going on for 5 years now?, it has kept me from getting what I really need, that proper exit.

What happened to me yesterday, when my neighbor made it a point to intrude on me and my daughter enjoying her dog, HE KNOWS HE DID WRONG YOU KNOW. And his sudden intrusion on my day, only made that even more raw to me after all this time and torture. And yes I filled with RAGE and if he had continued to push me with his intrusiveness, I might have lost control. And when I retreated to the barn to compose myself, it was really hard, but this time everything came into play going all the way back that showed me WHY THAT RAGE TOOK PLACE. So this time I could actually CONTROL IT and COME DOWN INTO FOCUS AGAIN. So I HAVE gained some ground. But I am still struggling and I sure am tired today.

And I am here sharing what I have just learned in my own recovery process. I was trying to explain it to unhappyguy in his thread, but I just didn't have the right words and I can really sympathize with him.

And Rose?, I was trying to say that to you in your thread as well, but I didn't quite have the right words that would help it click in your mind. Well, I am not really at that point yet, as I am still struggling as well. However all along I have felt that the solution is through gaining on the way to view our struggles intellectually. And I can see that there is a time where we are inbetween in seeing some of the intellectual and yet still crippled by the emotions.

After my therapist listened to me talk today and that I was also crying and emotional, he validated my progress and that is a good therapist and why we cannot do this on our own. It is very important to have a therapist who truely understands TRAMA WORK. Because sometimes we don't see how much we have progressed because the emotional is still there and can be crippling.

Well, I am going up to take a nap because I am exhausted. I didn't sleep very well last night so I began my day exhausted.

Thank you friends for your support.

(((Hugs to ALL))))
Open Eyes

(((1982)))),

I am so sorry that you were victim of such a terrible man. I am so glad you got away from him and I can understand why you would be frightened to stand up against him.
Some things can be so hard to prove in the Legal system and it can end up making is even worse for the victim.

You are going to have to say a lot of prayers that no one else fall victim to this awful preditor. No, I know that doesn't seem to be enough, but you have to keep yourself safe and sane.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes

I've been trying to answer this question all day.

And still. I have nothing.

No words of wisdom. No enlightened, elegant prose. Nothing brilliant to share.

The parts of me that were taken can never be recovered. The monsters that have committed violence against me walk unscathed. The abusers continue to abuse (with or without me there).

The best I can do to heal is to get as far away from them as possible.

And THEN gingerly examine every single little detail of every single painful, agonizing thing from my life.

Hopefully, it will be then, my heart will repair, and I will learn to trust again. To live my own life.

And never look back. And justice will be just another very benign word in the dictionary.

In my opinion, justice is a form of relief we experience after we feel some wrong has been rectified, it is the alleviation of anxiety, stress, etc, that arose as a result of some wrongdoing, but nothing more than that.

(((Open))) What a horrible past couple of days for you. I'm so sorry. The triggers, flashbacks are nothing short of horrible. I'm happy you were able to speak to your T in a way that was comfortable for you. I think thats great. The energy needed to spend on that drive could have only added more stress to your already painful and stressful day.
You seem to have a greater grasp on PTSD than I do. All I know is I do not like it and would not wish it on my worste enemy.
Sometimes the "little" things, well they are not little to us, are so applified it seems impossible to focus and move forward. It's the pain, anger, sadness that seems to get stuck (at leaste for me). Memories and feelings can be overwhelming.
I'm sorry for your triggers and what you are having to face now in helping your daughter. I can only imagine how hard that must be for you. It's like, when will this stuff end! Come on give me a break already.
I hope you are sleeping well tonight and will wake up feeling somewhat refreshed.
Sending you a big hug.
Share, vent, cry away, I'll be around and so will many others.
Cotton

And no, we are NOT crazy. We are healing from very painful events. We may seem and feel crazy at times, but we are not.

Thank you, Open Eyes. You're too kind

This is how I feel, I can not find the words. No words, no knowledge of this, especially sense there were multiple abusers.

The first was dead when I began to remember.
My ex was also diagnosed as a sociopath-by one pdoc and antisocial by another, but I think it is the same thing. I found out at the divorce hearing-the judge had sent him to be tested and I was given full custody that was to me a big bright flame of justice at the time, unfortunately back then they didn't do much about enforcing OP's orders of protections. While we sat in a safe house the police called and asked for me to come pick him p because they couldn't handle him! He really knew how to play the system.
Later was the worse, a pdoc in a locked hospital. I can't find justice anywhere for that one because too many knew of the abuse but said nothing for fear of their d^$m jobs. Their jobs!!! Doesn't compare. This still keeps me from fully trusting any pdoc now. I only got out because I excaped, my lawyer told me to run, to tell him I was safe but not where I was. Homeless, while the pdoc lived in his big house. Great question---what is justice?

They all do, every single time he did jail time he'd turn religious and he'd charm everyone (he even sent me a bible from jail...) just so he'd get probation time sooner. They're horrible.

Justice is flawed.

Simply put, justice is a human creation, a tool, used to bring harmony to an otherwise chaotic state of being. I say "human creation", as I see no indication that justice is commanded by some divine presence or even something which merely exists in the universe as a force of nature. And I use "tool" loosely, as we are naturally inclined to preserve our community and will punish those who violate the laws and norms of our society. As Cicero noted, we are compelled to do good and defend our community. From this inclination, justice arises.

However, I must add that there is a distinct difference between justice and vengeance. Justice is impartial and fair. Through justice, the society as a whole is benefited. It is selfless.

Vengeance is biased and personal. It only succeeds in perpetuating harm and bringing a hollow and fleeting sense of satisfaction to the one seeking vengeance. It is a wholly selfish endeavour.

Justice does exist as a human creation. It is flawed, because humans are flawed.

Wow! MichaelD. I am moved by your post. Food for thought. Thank you!

So I am pondering your statement: "Justice is impartial and fair. Through justice, the society as a whole is benefited. It is selfless". Do you mean, "Justice is (supposed to be) impartial and fair..."

So, does our (US) Legal System and Govt proport to represent justice (but secretly is really about vengeance, since there are personal motivations and agendas, and human's are flawed? So what might be considered justice in some's eyes may be vengeance in another's?)

Vengeance sounds pretty good to me. Oh if anybody knew my vengeance fantasies they would lock me up and throw away the key.