Mental Illness and Stress and Meds

Exactly! I totally understand and respect your choice. I really appreciate that you respect mine (well, it's a little more complicated the yes or no but I think you get that. )

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I believe that the mass media has an enormous influence on just about everyone in the world. That for sure...then there are the societal norms we all live with. By that I mean geographic norms...as you, Zinco, pointed out about the difference between the Bay Area in Cali and Mich. Me, personally...at the time I chose to start a family I was really going against my own societal norms. Not purposely, but because I had always wanted to have a family, be a mom. My own snobby obstetrician had the chutzpah to ask me "what I was really going to do with my life" (when I became pregnant I gave up a position at a university...a year of that kind of work was plenty enough for me). I was too shy to say anything at that time - today I would have called the jerk out for saying such a thing to a patient! My life-long best girlfriends were working their ways up the Yuppie ladder when I was having babies. It was tough, yes. But I felt very sure of my decision.

It sure is complicated. I know that as a little boy I had interests and attributes and things that were important to me that were all mine. No outside influence at all. Then I had my parents and their friends in instilling values both good and bad. Then there was the local culture I was in and my peers and peer pressure. The Catholic Church, the public schools I was in, teachers, friends parents, and coaches. These are by far the largest factors that influenced me and not media and society at large. I did a lot of.values clarification work to really sort out what things I chose to adopt and reject. Probably most people don't do that type of formal work but I think they deserve more credit for freely choosing what is important to them. I would like to share my experience with Mexican Americans in CA but I don't want to type on my phone anymore.

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SisterRags I love what you said about breaking the cycle. That is something to be very proud of. I also and am very proud of myself and my family for breaking the cycle of multi generational alcoholism/addiction and emotional abuse and neglect. All the grand kids have a hellava better shot. Not that they won't have problems but they will have tools. I have found much meaning and purpose in this.

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But i used society as a way to connect common experience. I don't know if you see a few keywords and formed an opinion about what I was trying to say or if I'm not making sense or what. It seemed to get through to other people so I just at a loss. It is about how you treat people that you don't agree with. It is about the judgements you put on people without learning what they are really about. That's about as blunt as I can be.

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See you seem to be getting it! Thank you!



The women and babies and careers is really a women to women thing. Good men just want their partners to be happy. Bad men don't care. Corporate land is one place it is obvious if you spend some time observing. If you study advertising, however those messages are everywhere. The most recent and surprising to me came out of Microsoft but I don't want to veer. My point is you don't have to accept it for yourself but a woman is better off if she doesn't deny it is there. It's just plain reality. State is irrelevant. I can't think of an across the board male equivalent.

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I agree that state is irrelevant and I am a man so can't comment much. I wonder how common it is in all cultures from an anthropological point of view. Or how biological it is to procreate and have a nuclear family.

There are male equivalents. Men are expected to provide for their families and them selves. If you fulfill that role you are successful and the rest of the time is yours. Drink, cheat on your wife, whatever, just be the provider. Exaggeration because many men fulfill many other roles as they should, but a part of male culture.

Try to be a stay at home dad with no job and you will know societal pressure.

When I say above individuals should be given credit for their free choices that includes you and Venus and the stay at home dad and Susie homemaker and the female CEO.

Or in my case a 50 year old male with no income and applying for government disability. Not a free choice but I will have to deal with societal views as we have discussed.

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The difference with your example is if you do provide for your family you are doing good. It's congrats. Sister's doctor thought she should go to work and be fulfilled. I can't count how many times I've been asked why I don't have kids. It's the most important thing you can do! Strangers, as if it is any of their business. You are supposed to leave kid problems at home and if something happens you might not be dedicated enough for that promotion. Then there are moms that stayed at home and now the kids are older so they want to go back to their career. All the managing schedules and budgets and groups of kids mean crap. What matters is you weren't a manager >in an office< so you have no experience. I think that covers all the roles. What role have I missed?

I'm not exaggerating either. This is reality. I'm not whining about it either. The fact that I am aware of it gives me more power, not less. The people that get sucked into it are the ones who limit themselves. Like one of my friends. She lied about the kid stuff so many times she was fired. Now, she really doesn't know if she would have been fired if she had been honest. I don't know either considering the people she worked with but regardless, I think she let herself get sucked into an unrealistic expectation of working and being a single mom. Had she been real with the situation her boss may have been more accommodating than she gave him credit but maybe not (he was an immature ***). That doesn't change the fact that the expectation is there.



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Unless you choose to be a stay at home dad, or you are unable to provide for your family for some reason, or you choose a low paying career over one you could have had made more money in. If you are disabled and unable to work other men won't believe it and think you are just lazy and milking the system. Why should they work hard and pay taxes so you can sit on your butt. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard those comments. Not at me. My case is recent. Toward others. A man on food stamps is a porhia. Men don't give a second thought to women on welfare but for men on welfare or disability they have very strong views.

Men have cultural macho views that not all men share. They feel pressured to fit in with the boys. You need to play sports and be interested in them, hunt and fish, work hard and play hard and party hard. What if you are a young man who wants to play piano and be in the school play. Men have very real pressures too, not exaggerated. Often I would rather cackle with the hens indoors rather than go outside and strut with the roosters. I am secure enough in my manhood to do both. I am not secure enough about not working and having an income. I have heard all the comments and beliefs my whole life.

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This isn't a competition of who has it "worse". We could sit here all night and volley stories of childhood shame and educational shame and race shame and sex shame and mental health shame and economic shame, etc, etc, etc. My point is that women have a >unique< situation in that society criticizes >every< combination of child/career that women can be in. As I said I cannot think of a male equivalent. That doesn't make your situation less valid. In fact this is not personal at all. This is simple political/societal reality.

Iow, if you said men, not you specifically, men, are criticized for having 2.5 kids and making enough to pay for everything they need plus play golf with the boys I would say exactly! That's the same thing! But that's not the case. Men are criticized for not making money. They are NOT criticized for making money.

In fact my original reason for bringing it up is because I know sister is familiar with it too. Every woman is. They don't even have to recognize it as universal among women because they all have their version of it. As you saw I was right. There is nothing to debate.

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Thank you, Zinco and congratulations to you, too, for breaking cycles. Yes, I am proud of my commitment to raising my children in a healthy environment in which there was absolutely no abuse or inappropriate behavior by me, my husband, or any role models. Very, very different than the situation I was raised in. And wow - does it ever show when a child grows up in a healthy environment, as opposed to one who doesn't.

I get that a lot. And "why are you not married?" My mom thinks career is impossible without man on the side because I need somebody to take to dinner parties.

It's even worse when I travel to the East or Balkans. I mean, I love Ukraine and think the people are wondrerful, but last time I was there an elderly woman asked me about being married and thought it was part of polite conversation. And we had just met. Then she sadly asked what is up with the girls in the "West" that they don't want to get married that she knows many like that (strangest thing is she lived in the "West" (Slovakia) for a long time. I couldn't answer the question. I gotten that multiple times when interacting with locals. Often with afterthought "Is that normal not be married when you are so old where you live?".

The thing is the younger generation here more or less understands,but the older generation? I mean, I see their point, there was really not much to do during the communism with your life but to marry, have kids, buy a weekend house and a car (after being on waitlist for it for few years) and queue for toilet paper and dream of visiting Yugoslavia once.

Michanne you don't have to answer this ,but are you in a relationship , are you straight or gay , Venus is gay she has told us and your always quoting her why do you bounce off Venus , Its very intimidating to be double teamed all the time. IF I was a therapist I would say you both need someone in your life , but to be a therapist I would need my brain removed first , when in a relationship it can be very calming to a person , you no someone to bounce off.sister rags has that with her kids something to keep her glued together I am not being to personal in (my) mind to ask I just wonder if there is anyone in your life beside your cat , it can make a huge difference .Has the shrinks and gp have said to me without my wife I would have been a total loss I need someone I just wondered if you don't to and venus , because she will answer this to. Dont go luppy is a reasonable question .

I have been open about past relationships. You are a selective reader . No, if I were in a relationship I would be spending more time offline. Right now my art is my comfort. My T is who I talk to.

How about "why don't you have kids?" That would seem to be an appropriate next question from you. I'll save you the trouble. Because we aren't in a population shortage.


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I was not at all trying to start a competition of who has it worse or better. You said you couldn't think of a male equivalent. Obviously there is not a male equivalent because we can't have babies.

The point I perceived you were making is that women who choose not to have kids tend to get shamed and shunned.
It stands to reason that a women who chooses to have kids would get congrats and support. which is what I see happen

If a man provides for his family and fits the macho stereotype he gets congrats and accolades.
The man who does not provide or does not fit the macho with the boys thing gets shamed and shunned by other men.

They are not the same but similar. You say it doesn't count because if a man provides and fits in with the boys he gets congrats. But women who have children also get congrats. So it does compare.

I was merely pointing out that men also have pressures they have to face and deal with if the don't fit the model.

A man who is single a long time is not married does not have kids is questioned by his peers on whether he is gay or not when he is not gay. They may not say it to his face but behind his back they will say I think he is gay.

Men who are naturally more feminine and sensitive and don't fit in with the boys and don't share the same interests have to deal with that issue of outside messages and influence.

I personally don't have to deal with it because I can fit in with the boys and am pretty macho by nature and I can also be empathetic and fit in with women. The latter I had to learn. I have seen other men grapple with the issue though. I am currently grappling with the no income disability issue and how it is perceived.

I am not comparing and contrasting. I only brought it up because you said you couldn't think of a male equivalent so I pointed out some issues men face. I wan't calling them equivalent but similar.

"Its very intimidating to be double teamed all the time."

Why? You don't act the least bit intimidated unless mean is an act of defense. You have almost an entire forum "on your side". "On your side" is in quotes because I don't criticize a decision to take meds yet I get it from you and sister (in particular) all the time. There shouldn't be a side.

It is also not quite true. We both question the use of meds, yes. But there aren't too many others here that do and are vocal about it. Being on the same page looks more like a team than reality. From my perspective you and sister team up. You guys are so absolutely convinced you know the truth that it holds you back from empathic experience, IMO.

Just curious. Have you been out of your respective countries? If you have do you wandered outside the tourist areas? I haven't travelled a lot but I have travelled enough to understand how many different ways of thinking there are. In Cambodia for example, I had the worst head cold the last night. The kind with the nasty tension headache. I rarely get sick like that and it's the end of a long really good trip. I so wanted to get something that would send me into a slumber for the trip home. After >finally< finding a place that sells meds they didn't have anything stronger than aspirin. No Tylenol, no sudafed. If you do go outside your countries like that I would recommend having supplies of your meds packed in two places in you bags because you probably won't be able to get them replaced

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You are not the first to recommend pills and boyfriends. And you're not the first one to believe that pills and boyfriends (or girlfriends) are close to cure.

It's not I like I would not like a girlfriend, or even a platonic boyfriend. Sure, if I find somebody to handle me. And I am not talking of my bipolar, I would not put that on anybody. But if there is somebody, male, female or intersex, who is will to travel with me backpacker style, sleep in hostels, or camping places and maybe a secluded beach even, travel ferries on dock ticket and don't ask "why don't you take a plane...". If I find somebody who understands why some things matter to me so much... that would be nice. I just haven't met anybody that would fit into this (and if so, they already have their backpacker partner....).


And I agree with Michanne... getting sick in foreign country sucks. I also recommend not to try local remedies and medicines (especially not combined). Although maybe some of you would like effects of Eastern European medicines (apparently the point is that you get so high that you don't CARE you are sick anymore... not good when you travel.... I had a sunstroke in Albania and let people in my camping place to give me some "cures". Travelled to Vlora (I was in a camping place that failed all EU standards for what camping place should have... I wanted to get to a city with a hostel that has beds and running water... I gotten that and after few hours of sleep I went out to get something to eat and water... outside I found it very funny that everything was in Albanian, that the place is called Vlorë... and just about everything. Made it back to my place with help of nice locals... it was the next day I realized how scary the whole thing really was).

No, see you still aren't seeing my point. Women who have kids are "giving up their career", "fulfillment of their potential" as was sisters experience. Or they are irresponsible for raising kids and having a career because they aren't "taking care of their kids". Either way. Doing it "wrong".

I am just repeating myself now.

This is proof you aren't seeing it:

"I personally don't have to deal with it because I can fit in with the boys and am pretty macho by nature".

The reason for this conflict is the changing role from purely housewife to having career. Society hasn't quite given up the idea that women should be mothers but there is also demand and desire to have a career. So now we are in this long conflict of how women should behave in the workplace whether they have kids or not.

I must be the worst communicator ever. I give up. Maybe I need help.

As you read the following pay attention to how her conflict flips between home and career and the sacrifices she makes to meet expectations of both including not completely accepting an exec role. It is as much about what she doesn't say as what she does say. She can do both but man is it it hard. How common is it to have a house husband?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morra-..._b_810434.html

This is about male expectations. Yes there are shaming expectations. Bit they aren't in as much >conflict<. You don't flip between choosing a career and having family AND juggling both. Just get married. You see, I don't need shaming of men explained to me. I get it because I have been learning about shame and it's effect on everybody, not just me. It is practicing empathy that allows me to.

http://lissarankin.com/women-please-stop-shaming-men

Again. How individuals do it is different than expectations. We all have choice. Brené Brown talks about how her research on shame caused her to go into a breakdown AND caused her to experience worthiness because of understanding how societal expectations effect her. But not just her. Everyone. That knowledge gave her power not weakness. A side point: I also love that she understands the role her depression played in getting her to that point. I have read and heard her talk about it several times.

This is about how behavior is different in the workplace. I post it to show I am not high or seeing things. I am very observant and aware in the workplace because of the environment I work in. I am more aware in the workplace because it is needed for survival in a heavily male dominated career. I have also worked on female dominated teams including one that was female from the bottom to the CEO. It isn't much different when it comes to expectations. You don't see as many of the same subtle behaviors but the conflicting expectations are even more apparent. I do prefer pedicure team outings over golf however.

http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node7.html

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I never gave it a thought about kids, one of my daughters is a COP she has a mortgage on her own house 10 years now, she does not have a boyfriend thought she has lived with a guy , she has been on her own with her dog ie 1 of my dogs pups, a long time without a man, she is never short of offers. SHE is not gay but is not bothered about anyone sharing her space and life style which is pretty hectic ,music concerts holidays nights out with her many friends , plus giving me a hard time because she loves me. So your saying you would not be on hear so much if your were in a relationship , are you really that ill then or just bored because most of us are in a relationship and post like crazy.

Great for your daughter.

I have no idea how you spend the rest of your time. My time offline is currently spent at work and art which includes socializing with like minders which I'm sure will be your next question. I don't have time for work, art, a relationship AND a forum. As it is I'd like to spend more time with art. Something has to give. It isn't going to be the first three .

This forum has taken up most of the time I used to spend on fb group i got my fill of and a photography forum that is no more and I miss .


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Off topic... The icon changed. I like the old one better.

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I take photos, you may have seen few on hear , not seen any of yours forgive me I thought you said you were in between jobs:cool

I was between jobs. Once I stepped down the Zoloft I had multiple offers.

Arizona:
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/michan...7635407141275/

Photostream:
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/michannephotos/


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I hope I'm allowed this post about stressors from mental illness.

DSPS is not really seen as anything serious, it is an overlooked sleep disorder but it is a hard one. The suffering is almost solely when you depend on friends and society, work, school all that. Open stores, appointments.

It is very stressful knowing all demands on you to have a "proper" sleep schedule. When you have DSPS your 5 am can be like other peoples 11 pm. You can't change it by will. So when you have to get up at 7 am it is like for a normal person to have to get up at 1 am and try to fall asleep at 5 pm to get enough sleep.

Luckily I don't work but it's still hard.

There is no therapy for it else than "just try to do better". There are no meds. Standard sleep meds are only used to drug you to sleep when you're really not tired, they cannot change your pattern. And you will lose out on the most healing deep sleep since you have to get up before it happens. Because of this, it is speculated that people with DSPS who have to adapt to a "normal" schedule on a daily basis will die 15 years before their time, because of unrepaired cell damage.

There is melatonin that can help push your pattern a little, it's also stimulating the immune system meaning I can get a flare of my physical illness if I take it so it is not an option.

Right now I'm "OK" with this disorder but there are times when it is so overwhelming and stressful that it basically overshadows my other mental problems. It is a HUGE handicap living in a different time zone than everyone around you. When I visit relatives they kick me out of bed at 8. Then I have gotten 3 hours of sleep and I have a busybusy day ahead of me. Even things that should be fun like visiting people, turn into a nightmare.

That has to be very difficult seeing as sleep is so important to healing and mood and everything. My circadian rhythms get all whacked when I am in a deep depression. It doesn't matter much because if I am that deep I can't work. I stay up 4 to 6 hours during the late night and sleep all day. It is hard to get that straightened back out.

Then the SSRI's and SSNRI's whack my sleep pattern. I don't get enough of that really deep deep healing sleep. I dream like crazy and wake up all the time. I adapt to it somewhat but when I was working I had to take a long nap after work to make up. I would go comatose in the afternoon for three hours and that is how I had to deal with it.

I am not comparing mine to yours, just my experience.