Mental Illness and Stress and Meds

Thank you Doc John for the clarification.

I know we have a different perspective on things. Or really we look at things in a different sort of way. I am introspective and you seems to be very exprospective if that is a word.

I won't disagree with you that society has a huge influence on many people in what they should or should not do, or how they should or should not be. I think we should give people more credit though for choosing there own core values and what is important to them. Not everyone is so influenced by societal pressures. I have had to work through issues around that in the past. I don't think it effects me much as I am introspective and very independent minded and stubborn if you haven't noticed. lol

I agree with you that American society in general creates a lot of unnecessary stress and stimuli. It is different than our distant ancestors but I am not sure it is less. They were under enormous stress to find food, deal with the elements and so on. Much simpler life but maybe not less stress.

The huge increase in MI diagnosis in the US is due to a number of reasons I don't have time to elaborate on. Partly due to over diagnosis which is a problem.

As far as meds and drugs can we stick to one specific drug and its effects. If we wanna talk about weed lets talk about that. Alcohol the same thing. AAP's same thing. Lets please try to be more specific and not generalize. I know it is hard not to in many cases. I just did it in regards to American society which is actually very diverse and varied.

The guy who loses his job.....you miss the point of me saying he suffered a severe depression for six months. Not he lost a job and felt bad. Isn't a severe depression that lasts six months a real thing for some?

I have to go. Have a good weekend. More next week.

"Imho, another oft quoted statistics about 25% of Americans dealing with MI in course of their lifetimes is telling too. Unless you wanna believe humans are degenerating... it's a sign that something is wrong with the way we live. I guess from perspective of individual with bills to pay, turning to chemistry makes sense and is often the least difficult way to deal with it... in the larger scale... it sounds like something from dystopic novel. And I don't fault individuals or their choices."

There are all sorts of crazy numbers, eh? The one I believe is accurate and probably gets twisted is between ~30 and ~50 20% of the population will have taken an AD. SSRIs are taken for more than just MI so to translate that to MI isn't right. 25 is abnormal for any disease, I completely agree. At 5% WHO would be freaking out if it were the flu. We have a long history of turning to chemicals, that cannot be denied.

To expand on "how we live". I don't see the US as more stressful until you factor "expectations". Expectations are huge and pills really help to meet them. I'm not being glib. We set the bar really high to behave, look, BE a certain way on a constant, daily basis. I keep talking about the "problem" with culture vs individuals but thinking about changing culture is a really overwhelming thought. Especially for an impatient person like me . I imagine living outside of it makes it hard to fathom the scale but it is a little like trying to get two groups that have been fighting for eons to live together in harmony. Only here we have all sorts of entities that need to live in harmony. I am referring to everything from water cooler talk to emissions to traffic to advertising and media to "rape culture" (which I realize is controversial) and racism and fear and much more. As an individual I think the only way I can truly escape to my satisfaction and health it is to move. At least I have the choice. Back when "mill town" was the word (aka "mother's little helper") women had a lot of pressure to be a certain way but very little choices.

Both of you are right and could stand some more understanding of other cultures, IMHO. I learn a lot about my own culture by trying to understand a different one. Don't take it the wrong way, I do think the effort is being made. If I imagine living in Crimea there is no way in hell I would willingly take a psychotropic drug. I would want to have my wits at all times. And in a war you just don't have time to think about your personal mindset. Your mind deals with it later: PTSD. In this country soldiers and inner city neighborhoods deal with war. That is not a majority, not since the WWII (arguably civil war) has the country experienced it on a mass scale.

We (the country) also work hard to protect our huge market. Health and big business are often in conflict. Having to rely on insurance for our health care is the worst thing ever but it isn't going away. Now the cost of pet care is skyrocketing because people bought into pet health insurance. It's all emotionally based. I am trying not get sucked in but an off hours visit is now 400-600 dollars, up front, before they do anything. That could be a 2+ week paycheck when all is done.

I did look up diabetes and drugs. There were so many results I didn't bother collecting anything plus I'm kind of tired of the fact race, tbh. I guarantee your preferred source will be there. The concern isn't just weight gain although that is the biggest cause. Since type 2 diabetes is about how you train your body to metabolize insulin you can be skinny to develop it. APs and ADs are a concern because they also lower your metabolism and causes you to be more sedentary. The pills do, not just depression. It wouldn't surprise me if that leads to more sugar intake and empty diets. I'm sure it does. There is a higher rate with schizophrenia. They take higher doses. Without pills their energy is pretty high. This comes from places like NIH.

Now, I am going to attempt to spend my time on making art this weekend. After coffee.

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Sorry, I really am getting offline in a sec.

"I kinda wonder why don't they try to work more on psychdrugs that would act fastish and could be used only when needed. Sure, it would have abuse potential, but wouldn't it be nice to have a pick me up when feeling bad, without having to wait WEEKS for it to start working and without having to take it for long time? (not sure it's really possible and that it would be risk free, but c'mon....)."

I want more studies in non invasive techniques. The only thing that has really improved in psych drugs are side effects and tolerance. Sure. That helps effectiveness but in 40 years not much to get excited about. There are a ton of "me too" drugs now. That said, I understand that ketamine works really fast because of the part of the brain it targets. You don't take it daily either. You go to the office to take it which is really good (less risk of abuse). FYI, I'm mixing in some paraphrasing of a nyt article. The thing is ketamine and LSD type research is by not for profit agencies. Apparently the riskiest research is done by groups that aren't accountable to stockholders. I thought that was a telling observation. A little discouraging too.

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we already have a drug you want its called a BENZO,

Out of all that info flying about in the above many post I do agree that taking an antidepressant when not really depressed will make you ill . Its the old line take something for an illness you havent got you will get it. the reason for this is people then think the med is not working so they try another and all of a sudden there on the med go round ,for nothing more than a good looking at your self and life would not have cured . ITS THE REALLY ILL that get the most positive results from meds not the think they are.

You take it everyday and as you suggest you can easily overdue it. I understand the effect of ketamine is not to make you high. If you are referring to LSD there are short term "trips" being studied but there are other studies that look at how it targets the brain. And you would not take that daily either. It is not what you think... Or if you are hoping for that beam up feeling you would be disappointed.

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That's actually a really good point.

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But these are downers/tranqs.

It's not like it can give you the boost when feeling down. Probably some of the tranquilizing effect is protective.... but if you have person who is apathetic as it is, benzos aren't going to be a solution there.

(I actually heard great things about using amphetamines to treat depression and in a way it makes sense... but the effects on body are very harsh, imho and there is an abuse potential...)

They lift you mood in 20minutes even depression is dulled . try them with alcohol like the kids in England do for a buzz and you can drink all night without feeling ill , don't read about what they do try it.valium has the opposite effect its a miserable drug

You know the first time I read this I didn't see that part at all. Imagine that.

I have to admit I love to debate and for me I think it is very educational. I have a whole book in my head now about my experience as it relates to culture, values, stress, expectations, and so on. It is just my experience in a big world.

One of my problems is that for the last two years I have spent most of that time thinking about depression and all these related issues mainly because it has consumed so much of my life. That is not really healthy. I spend to much time on these forums and that is not healthy. I am sure I will keep posting but if we don't debate as much I will partly lose interest. The depression section is tough if you are feeling pretty good.

I just golfed 18 holes with three buddies and we pretty much stayed in the moment and laughed our butts off and I got a good workout so that was good. Golf makes mindfulness easy. My problem is that when I am seriously depressed i can't do those things that normally make me feel better. Taking a break before I head across the state. Just two hours due west coast to coast here.

I think benzo's and on of the most effective drugs ever invented. We all know all the problems with them but they are very effective. I am lucky in that I don't get sedated by them. They just make me calm and more focused. I don't think they work for depression though.

The drug Venus wants has been out there for years and she mentioned it. The best antidepressant ever invented is amphetamines. As you guys probably know I was a meth head at one time for five years so i have experience. My view is that in very small doses and no abuse they would be very effective. I do not know what the long term effects would be but if the dosage was just right that you could adapt a little to eat and sleep right every day I think they would be very effective. Properly cooked meth it takes a very tiny amount to do the job. Of course me and my friends never did just very small amounts. We did a 100 times that dose and would stay up all week with hardly any sleep. Believe it or not you can adapt to even very high doses and eat and sleep but your dopamine system gets so whacked you don't stand a chance. I am taking about the addiction side of it and that is a big danger with them. I was shocked the first time I heard dexadrine prescribed for depression.

I have never taken dexadrine, adderall, or ritalin but I have a lot of experience with meth amphetamine. If someone snorted a less that one inch line or somehow got the equivalent dose and did that every morning and never any more I think it would work like a champ. That is if the dopamine system stayed balanced. I was always against it because I thought of it as an addictive street drug. I don't know what the abuse percentage is when they are used for depression. I would probably have a hard time not abusing it. It is very potent but in very small doses an excellent antidepressant.

For adderall the dose is typically so low the effects are minimal. You aren't supposed to take enough to feel jittery but of course docs over dose it a lot and people do abuse it. On the low dose most people aren't going to become addicted like they do with meth.

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venus all the drugs and meds that are quick and good are addictive im afraid , how addictive depends on the person . lorazapam does not give me a downer the opposite I am wired like a spring so lorazapan uncoils me can you understand .To others 6mg lorazapam a day they would never wake up and sleep all the time. To make sure I don't dip into depression I take the low 5mg Lexapro . No shrink worked my routine out I did, I just found a doc willing to let me take charge of my own health and he just supplies the meds.

I wonder if it because they act quick they are so addictive. Has to have something to do with it. Anything you smoke hits your brain in 2/5 ths of a second. Smoking meth or crack is much more addictive than snorting it because it acts so fast.
I would be interested to know how many people taking amphetamines for depression abuse it. I don't think ADHD counts as it has the opposite effect. Kids just sell it to their friends and that doesn't mean they are abusing it.

Can you clarify that statement in bold? MI does not create stress? Do you have an understanding of serious mental illness? MI creates very serious and real stress in the way it effects our lives. Or do you think that all mental illness and stress are caused by society?

A very human and real life example that has nothing to do with "society". Having a child. Been happening for eons. In my first couple of posts I shared how my mental illness effected my ability to be a good parent and created a lot of shame and stress. If I had meds that worked during that period and a part of my treatment I would have been a better parent and reduced my stress and would have been so much better for my daughter. Pretty simple.

I do plan on sharing a long story about societal pressures, family pressures, peer pressures, and internal pressures and how they effected me from early childhood on. Probably no one will read it because it will be long knowing me.

Venus
If the 25% figure is true where are a number of reasons for it.

I believe it is true to say that the number of diagnosis in the DSM has increased dramatically. In the 60's ADD, ADHD, PTDS, Anorexia, Bulimia, OCD, and a ton of others did not even exist.

People have become much more aware and the stigma has been dramatically reduces. Say from 1900 to 1960 only the very severely mentally ill were diagnosed and were put in state hospitals. So the statistics at that time were only based on those in state and county mental health hospitals. There were vast numbers of people who were mentally ill but never got diagnosed. Their families took care of them and didn't really know what was wrong. My great grandfather spent the last 7 years of his life in his bedroom and my grandparents house and committed suicide. He never had a diagnosis but was obviously mentally ill.

So many many more people who have legit mental illness today will seek treatment and get a diagnosis compared to those days. The stigma has vastly improved.

We are over diagnosed and over prescribed. The person who has no mental illness and goes to a GP can get an AD pretty quick. They are having some stress and heard about the happy pill prozac and figured they would try it. I don't think those people take it for long. They figure out very soon that it is no happy pill. They don't feel any effects because it works to slow and they don't like the side effects. Those people are much more likely to turn to alcohol, street drugs, or benzo's. I don't believe the thing about those who are not mentally ill taking AD's and the AD's causing them to develop depression. For one thing they are not going to take them long because they don't do what they expected.

People with milder forms of MI get put on meds when they would probably be much better off without them because their symptoms are mild and could be dealt with in other ways.

I have read that there is a direct correlation between the number of diagnosis in the 60's compared to now and the increase in number of psyche meds and prescriptions and it is the psyche meds themselves that have caused more mental illness. What a crock of BS. The large increase has to do with the reasons I listed above.

Someone who is just struggling to pay bills is most likely to turn to alcohol to relieve stress. They do not need psyche meds. I am talking in this thread about the seriously mentally ill.

Does the pressures of society and culture increase real mental illness and the number of meds prescribed? I think it sure does and I agree with you there. What percentage compared to the other factors I listed would be interesting to know.

I only have my experience and the people I have known so like I said I will share mine. There are many misconceptions about American society.

I feel taking medication is a personal choice. For me, I look at the benefits vs. the side effects. I would love to be med free, but it's not going to happen.
Working in the medical field, medication has saved many lives. Look at cancer meds, they are poison to the body, but can save a person's life. Do the benefits out weigh the side effects? Ask any cancer patient who is still alive, due to medication.
Antibiotics have nasty side effects, but would stop taking them if you had a terrible infection that could kill you?
I feel meds have their place, it's up to the individual whether or not they choose to take them.
I suffer from severe anxiety/panic and if left untreated, I spiral into a deep depression.
I choose to take medication, because it gives me a better quality of life. A life that I can enjoy and be productive.
After trying numerous medications, I found a combo with the least side effects, yet still help me with my anxiety/panic disorder.
My stress level is lowered and I'm able to function as a productive, happy and peaceful individual.
Medication is not a "one size fits all" solution. But for many people it's a life saver, despite all the side effects it may cause.

No, not cause my society.

But i don't think the problem of MI is that it generates stress on it's own, or at least that is not the biggest deal, imho, but the inability to handle life and the interactions with the "world" and reactions to the environment. Problems in relationships, inability to work sufficiently, our perceptions of external expectations... play a big role. Being depressed or manic in itself is not that big problem as the fall out that comes from the consequences of our behaviour. And some of the "internal" stress, is imho just internalized things coming from outside (miserable self-perception doesn't appear from nowhere). So that is what I mean with the stress response.

Maybe it's just difference in perception of the problem.... or different personal experience. Personally my problem is reacting to things in extreme or absurd ways... none of my experience is something purely internal, coming from inside, without any relations to my experience, my environment and the interactions with others/"the world".

When dealing with stress, many factors determine how a person deals with it.
You have external factors, past experiences and genetics. You can have two people that handle a stressful situation, totally different.
I have a predisposition for anxiety/panic, due to my genetic make up. I was raise by a anxious mother and "learned" to react negatively to stress, and I chose a lifestyle that increases my stress level.
My "fight or flight" response is very strong and creates tremendous anxiety for me.
This is my physical response to stress. Mentally I tend to catastrophize certain situations, which just leads to more anxiety. So I have both a physical, mental and emotional response to stress, which leads to an obsessive thought pattern.
I find medication and CBT, helps me deal more productively with stressful situations.
The more I understand my anxiety, the better I can deal with it.

Zinco,

If you believe MI is a spectrum, which I think you do, then sticking to "serious MI" as criteria might as well be a club with special permission to enter. I don't suffer from the level of illness you are referring to and I didn't think it was a requirement to contribute to this convo. You don't say this is only about serious MI in your original post. I think if you only want to include people at the far end of the spectrum you should say so just as sister should have said if she only want to hear from in-compliant, vain women. IMO, that was an invalidating statement to make.

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While I believe there is serious MI I also believe the definitions of where the line is drawn between MI and healthy is culturally defined. In fact anthropologists can tell you about other cultures where what we consider, say, moderate depression is not even define. Indeed, other generations have defined illnesses we would consider racist today. I feel naming something an illness is like giving permission to give into stress as an internal rather than external factor. Turning off the local news is one way I deal with stress. I am changing my environment which I do have some control over rather than my illness which I have less control over. I think jolisse makes an excellent point I can relate to the same sort of experience except it was more about shaming my feelings. (Should I feel bad about that on Mother's Day?) As an adult I am learning not to let others decide my feelings for me. Assessing things for myself is therefore very important to me which is why I feel comfortable saying 25% is a culturally biased, nonsensical number, IMO. I don't really care who said it.

The courts agreed to release somebody because they suffer from "influenza", something that does not even appear in dsm. I wonder if it will be added? Maybe affluence dysphoria or acute comparative disorder? You can't get much more culturally defined than that. I think the same is true with many "illnesses" in the DSM such as the one about misbehaving children or people that thrive in an apprentice environment rather than a politically based (corporate) because of the way they process information. I talk to a lot of people like this who are seeking different types careers and I know of stories of people who ended up on meds because of their jobs. Change the nature of the career and the perceived need for meds disappears. If it weren't for dependence I think I am a candidate too.

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I think your expectations of drugs is so different from mine. I don't want to trade functionality for loopyness and addiction. That's why I avoid things like benzo's. I want it to assist me until I can find an alternative, like behavioral changes. There are people taking ketamine who do believe it to be quick and not addictive. I've never even met one so I can't talk from even circumstantial experience. I just don't think it is impossible. (Dreamers change the world ).

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well vets have been using ketamine on horses for years to calm them. One in my town even chose it for her own suicide. MENTAL HEALTH mmmmmm I think if you try or even kill yourself you may be mentally unbalanced or mentally ill that's the best indicator .

I don't understand how the abuse of a version/dose they use on a horse is relevant. These are human applications and human trials. A doctor administers it.

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