[vital]

This may be upsetting, but I feel obliged to point to this link pointing out what seems to be credible claims of very serious dangers with the kinds of drugs being discussed in this forum.

- vital

[gayleggg]

I like to stay informed but these drugs are keeping me alive(I'm suicidal when they aren't working), so I will take the chance with them.

[NowhereUSA]

Maybe it's just me, but all drugs have side effects (seriously read the information sheet) and YouTube isn't what I would consider a "reliable" source. So much crap on there (my favorite are the chemtrail conspiracies).

That's why I see a doctor I *trust* and work to find a medication that works. :P

[AstridLovelight]

I'm neither pro-med nor anti-med, I think it's up to each individual to make an informed decision on their own care. But I think people should be aware before viewing the linked video that it was produced by The Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a front group for the Church of Scientology, and as such has a hidden agenda.

wikipedia article on CCHR

Scientology and psychiatry

peace,
Astrid

[Altered Moment]

I haven't watched the video but the term psychotropic drugs is to broad. You would really have to look at each drug individually and discuss it. The AAP's and older AP's are probably the worst but for some people they could not live without them. The AAP's are what I would worry about the most. If i had serious psychosis, paranoia, delusions, and hallucinations, I would take them without a doubt.

I haven't taken everything on the market but I have been taking psychotropic drugs for twenty years, mostly antidepressants but others as well. I have never had any serious adverse effects. Millions of people have taken them for decades.

Any drug will have very serious adverse effects in some very low percentage of people. Some will even kill people at a very low percentage yet the rest of the population takes it fine. Vaccinations will kill a certain number of babies each year but I chose to have my daughter get all the vaccinations.

It is a risk vs. benefit equation and should be an educated one. I would rely on places like Harvard, John Hopkins, NIMH, Stanford, etc., for my information. You also have to look at what the evidence says about what percentage or people are effected this way or that way. You won't find a lot on the dangers of antidepressants on sites like Mayo or John Hopkins because they are safe. You will find a lot for on AAP's.

What are the real risks of antidepressants? - Harvard Health Publications

SSRIs: Myths and Facts About Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors

Adverse effects of atypical antipsychotics : differential risk and ... - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.bcmj.org/article/atypical...icians-need-kn

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2010/0301/p617.html

Again it needs to be a well informed individual decision based on your case looking at risk vs benefits. And get your information from reliable sources and not fear mongering doctors like Breggin.

[vital]

Originally Posted by AstridLovelight

I'm neither pro-med nor anti-med, I think it's up to each individual to make an informed decision on their own care. But I think people should be aware before viewing the linked video that it was produced by The Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a front group for the Church of Scientology, and as such has a hidden agenda.

wikipedia article on CCHR

Scientology and psychiatry

peace,
Astrid

Thanks, Astrid.

- vital

[Altered Moment]

For example. About six years ago anxiety entered my life when I had never had it before, only real bad depression. Oh joy joy. Nice addition to my disease for no apparent reason whatsoever. I dealt with it on my own up until about two years ago. It got so severe and debilitating, and was causing bad paranoia that I really started pushing my psychiatrist. We spent a year trying everything but benzo's. He didn't want to prescribe a benzo. I am already very good at meditation, deep breathing, relaxation techniques, etc. I tried chamomile and all the herbs and supplements. We tried Buspar, Vistaril, Muscle Relaxers.....all useless. Horrible almost constant anxiety.

So he gave in and gave me klonopin. I take a very low dose each day and have not had one ounce of anxiety since. I new it would work as I know benzo's. I am fully aware of the risks I am taking. I am well educated on the risks and problems of benzo's. I am willing to take those risks because of the huge benefit. Now I am going to start cutting back slowly and just keep it for PNR as needed. We will see what happens. If the anxiety returns like it was I will return to daily. I don't give a crap if I take it the rest of my life as long as I don't have the horrible anxiety I was having.

Well informed calculated decision.

Im on AAP for my schizophrenia. I went an entire year without them and went through PTSD, panic attacks, suicide attempts, paralyzing depression, and of course psychosis. You can take my meds from my cold dead hands.

[-jimi-]

I don't think scientology stuff should be allowed here. Had a friend who was stalked by them. He had a copy of a document that he was not supposed to own according to the scientology "church" so they threated him and his elderly grandparents whom he resided with to make sure he didn't share the document. They trashed his car no less than three times and smashed two of his windows.

Great people to listen to when it comes to psychiatry... or not.

[AstridLovelight]

Yikes, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend! Have they stopped harassing him?

And yeah I don't think Scientology stuff should be allowed here, anymore than any other sort of religious proselytizing. As I understand it, the reason Scientologists are anti-psych med and anti-psychiatry is because they believe mental illness and addictions are caused by evil aliens living in our brains.

But in fairness to Vital, I don't think he realized it was a Scientology vid until I pointed it out.

[-jimi-]

I don't know, this was a good while ago and I lost touch with him. It was during a weird craze here and it seems over with so I do think things are OK for him now. It was actually quite creepy because they followed me too and I was just a friend and had nothing to do with it.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by AstridLovelight

Yikes, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend! Have they stopped harassing him?

And yeah I don't think Scientology stuff should be allowed here, anymore than any other sort of religious proselytizing. As I understand it, the reason Scientologists are anti-psych med and anti-psychiatry is because they believe mental illness and addictions are caused by evil aliens living in our brains.

But in fairness to Vital, I don't think he realized it was a Scientology vid until I pointed it out.

I read L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics many years ago. I have no idea how I even got the book, but I thought I would read it. It is what the whole church of Scientology is based on as far as I know. I don't remember anything about aliens in the mind. It is all about unconscious memories and engrams and ridding your mind of them. It is just a psychological theory but it seems to claim to be a cure all. All disease is psychosomatic and can be cured by freeing yourself of engrams or something like that. I can't remember.

[AstridLovelight]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

I don't know, this was a good while ago and I lost touch with him. It was during a weird craze here and it seems over with so I do think things are OK for him now. It was actually quite creepy because they followed me too and I was just a friend and had nothing to do with it.

Wow, so creepy!

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I read L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics many years ago. I have no idea how I even got the book, but I thought I would read it. It is what the whole church of Scientology is based on as far as I know. I don't remember anything about aliens in the mind. It is all about unconscious memories and engrams and ridding your mind of them. It is just a psychological theory but it seems to claim to be a cure all. All disease is psychosomatic and can be cured by freeing yourself of engrams or something like that. I can't remember.

Yeah, I haven't read Dianetics, but I was interested in and open minded about Dianetics and Scientology at one point. But from what I know about it, you've summarized it very well. Although Dianetics and Scientology are not strictly the same. In the CoS Dianetics is considered "a forerunner and substudy of Scientology." source

And I was being a little glib when I wrote Scientologists believe in evil aliens in the mind. They're actually called Body Thetans and it's part of the higher level secret teaching after a member has reached a certain level (and shelled out a lot of cash). It's all rather too complicated and dull to go into in great detail, but a quick google of "Body Thetans" and/or "Xenu" will tell the story. Here's a link, though.

Scientology's Body Thetan (BT, or "dead alien spirit" in non-Scientology terms)

But in all fairness, it's not strictly true that all Scientologists believe in Body Thetans . . . those that have not reached OT3 are trying to get "Clear" and then moving on to becoming "Operating Thetans" and are not aware of Body Thetans at all. It's only the Bigwigs of the Church and the famous movie actors and their ilk who are usually at the OT3 and beyond level.

Which, y'know, whatever. I live in the U.S. and we have freedom of religion. So people are certainly free to choose what they believe and where and how (or how not) they worship. And they're free to choose to not take medications based on their religious beliefs. Using those religious beliefs to try to persuade others to not take potentially beneficial medications crosses the line, though, I think.

[Altered Moment]

You know more about it then me obviously. Seems it has morphed since that book. I did start reading some stuff on their website about Clear. I don't want to waste my time. I didn't go for the philosophy in Dianetics so that ended it for me.

I am open minded though. I did Course in Miracles for two years practicing the lessons everyday and going to study groups. I didn't get much in the way of results but a lot of the philosophy or "revelation" I agree with.

I used to read Joel Goldsmith who is a christian science writer and I like it even though I don't agree with the philosophy. I guess parts of it I do.

I have read lots and lots of books....searching. Eastern philosophy and Buddhism sit well with me but it has dogma and ritual too. I would have to say my beliefs are an amalgam of things. There are parallels. Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung, Emmet Fox, Conversations with God- Neal Donald Walch, Thich Nhat Hanh, Eknath Easwaran.....you name it.

I agree that discouraging people from medication and western medicine is irresponsible. Course in Miracles didn't cure me of depression but it wasn't for lack of trying.

[AstridLovelight]

Thanks I don't know that much about it really, just what I've read. Like I said, I was open to it for a while .... searching, like you said. I was really into Werner Erhard and EST for a while, and he took some of his ideas from them. (And got ruthlessly harassed by them for it!)

I've never done a Course in Miracles, but when I was doing AA meetings a lot of people there seemed to be into it. So it's very interesting to hear your experience!

I don't know much about Christian Science, but it too appealed to me for a while, but for some reason I never really pursued it. What part of their philosophy do you agree with?

I've read Campbell and Jung and some Thich Nhat Hanh and so I know what you mean about having an amalgam of beliefs! Although I'm now Catholic, which I love, despite having some serious disagreements and issues with the Church. But we don't need to go into that.

I currently struggle with the idea of taking psych meds .... sometimes I feel like I really need and want them (and have been on them in the past) and other times like I want to find a spiritual way without them. In general, I'm kinda terrified of taking anything right now due to some bad experiences this past year.

Anyway, Just in general from reading your posts around the forums I can tell that you have a lot of insight and experience and I always enjoy hearing what you have to share!

[Altered Moment]

I was raised Catholic. My Mom is very Catholic but there is a lot she doesn't agree with as well. I am a long time AA member. Some in AA call it being a "recovering Catholic". I never thought of it that way. I like the church but a whole lot I don't agree with either. They are going back to the old ways more and more and then we have this new pope. My Mom and I are always talking about the new pope who is in the news a lot. I like him. Shake up that power in the vatican.

Yeah in CA AA circles Course in Miracles, Emmet Fox, and some other books I can't remember right now are very popular. Spiritual growth is the goal however one does it.

I have applied spiritual practices and beliefs to my depression for so many years. Prayer and meditation, principles in all my affairs. Therapy, this that and the other. I wish I could overcome it through spiritual means but it just hasn't worked. Medication is part of the solution for me. I still have never found a total solution even with all the techniques. I am pretty much at peace with it though. It affects my life and it is hard but in the big picture my spirituality bring me much peace and contentment.

Oh the philosophies I agree with.....well I guess the power of the mind and spirit. Positive thinking and attitude. Tapping into this universal loving power that I do not understand for good. Hasn't worked on my depression but then why do people of strong faith get cancer and can't overcome it. Lots of questions on suffering we just don't know the answers to.

[vital]

Originally Posted by AstridLovelight

Thanks I don't know that much about it really, just what I've read. Like I said, I was open to it for a while .... searching, like you said. I was really into Werner Erhard and EST for a while, and he took some of his ideas from them. (And got ruthlessly harassed by them for it!)

I've never done a Course in Miracles, but when I was doing AA meetings a lot of people there seemed to be into it. So it's very interesting to hear your experience!

I don't know much about Christian Science, but it too appealed to me for a while, but for some reason I never really pursued it. What part of their philosophy do you agree with?

I've read Campbell and Jung and some Thich Nhat Hanh and so I know what you mean about having an amalgam of beliefs! Although I'm now Catholic, which I love, despite having some serious disagreements and issues with the Church. But we don't need to go into that.

I currently struggle with the idea of taking psych meds .... sometimes I feel like I really need and want them (and have been on them in the past) and other times like I want to find a spiritual way without them. In general, I'm kinda terrified of taking anything right now due to some bad experiences this past year.

Anyway, Just in general from reading your posts around the forums I can tell that you have a lot of insight and experience and I always enjoy hearing what you have to share!

Hi Astrid,

Thanks for defending me above. I indeed didn't realize that that video was sponsored by Scientology via that CCHR organization. I've never really looked into Scientology itself, but my impression is that it's an authoritarian cult similar to many before it. I find such things totally horrifying personally. I wouldn't even join the Boy Scouts much less an organization like that. I really don't trust authority of any kind. On the other hand, I have to say that I am concerned that there is actually some truth to what they are saying based on other sources.

Did I ever point you to Mark Hyman's Functional Medicine stuff?

I find this to be a really refreshing and promising approach.

- vital

[-jimi-]

About scientology, it's easy to get hold of books describing the basics. But you have to pay more and more for "higher" "scriptures" so basically no one has access to them. In my country some guy actually file shared I think two of those "higher" books, one of them my friend downloaded. It was not an easy read, but it did indeed mention what we normally would refer to as aliens and alien possession. For us it was just a funny joke before the stalking started.

Unfortunately this is not my first encounter with them, when I was a teen they had the area's biggest rehab clinic. My school sent kids there for work practice and also the scientologists were invited every year to lecture about drugs and try to get us interested in their "religion".

[AstridLovelight]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I was raised Catholic. My Mom is very Catholic but there is a lot she doesn't agree with as well. I am a long time AA member. Some in AA call it being a "recovering Catholic". I never thought of it that way. I like the church but a whole lot I don't agree with either. They are going back to the old ways more and more and then we have this new pope. My Mom and I are always talking about the new pope who is in the news a lot. I like him. Shake up that power in the vatican.

Yeah in CA AA circles Course in Miracles, Emmet Fox, and some other books I can't remember right now are very popular. Spiritual growth is the goal however one does it.

I have applied spiritual practices and beliefs to my depression for so many years. Prayer and meditation, principles in all my affairs. Therapy, this that and the other. I wish I could overcome it through spiritual means but it just hasn't worked. Medication is part of the solution for me. I still have never found a total solution even with all the techniques. I am pretty much at peace with it though. It affects my life and it is hard but in the big picture my spirituality bring me much peace and contentment.

Oh the philosophies I agree with.....well I guess the power of the mind and spirit. Positive thinking and attitude. Tapping into this universal loving power that I do not understand for good. Hasn't worked on my depression but then why do people of strong faith get cancer and can't overcome it. Lots of questions on suffering we just don't know the answers to.

Very cool, Zinco, thanks for the thoughtful response! The question of suffering is something many of us throughout the ages have sought to understand, I suppose. And I appreciate your sharing the Christian Science philosophies you agree with. Those sound like things I agree with also!

I'm glad you've found at least a partial solution and things that work for you and that your spirituality brings you so much peace and contentment. Right now I'm thinking that for me spirituality and medication don't have to be mutually exclusive. A priest recently reminded me that, as Thomas Aquinas put it, God often works His miracles through secondary means. A decent mood stabilizer I could tolerate might actually enhance my spirituality (or it might not, I don't know....I still grapple with it.)

I did AA for a while, but had some weird experiences in some meetings. Was sober for many years without it, then relapsed for a couple of years and finally regained sobriety a couple of years through SMART recovery, which for me is an awesome program. But going to an AA meeting has crossed my mind recently as I'm in a new town and would like to meet people and get some support.

I like Pope Francis a lot too, I worry about his safety sometimes, though. That maybe he's shaking things up too much.

Originally Posted by vital

Hi Astrid,

Thanks for defending me above. I indeed didn't realize that that video was sponsored by Scientology via that CCHR organization. I've never really looked into Scientology itself, but my impression is that it's an authoritarian cult similar to many before it. I find such things totally horrifying personally. I wouldn't even join the Boy Scouts much less an organization like that. I really don't trust authority of any kind. On the other hand, I have to say that I am concerned that there is actually some truth to what they are saying based on other sources.

Did I ever point you to Mark Hyman's Functional Medicine stuff?

I find this to be a really refreshing and promising approach.

- vital

Thanks for the video, Vital. I've watched part of it and intend to continue viewing it today. Interestingly enough, a few weeks ago I put his book The Ultramind Solution on my Amazon wishlist. Would've bought it if I'd had any money. I'm very open to that sort of worldview. Like I said to Zinco above, I'm on the fence about whether or not to go back on meds. But it's been a difficult journey this year trying to figure out what's going on with me. Had a battery of tests, thyroid checks out, etc etc and everything seems fine. But I know that physiological things can cause depression and other states ... earlier this year I had severe hyponatremia, came the closest to suicide I'd been in a few years, completely lost touch with reality, but then when the dr's discovered the low sodium, as soon as I increased my salt intake I started feeling better. A couple of people have suggested I should get tested for lyme disease, but the tests are so expensive.

On the other hand, the most severe depression I ever experienced, and the other closest time I came to suicide I was vegetarian, ate healthy foods, didn't smoke, drink coffee or eat sugar, got lots of exercise, meditated, all that jazz. I was very healthy mentally and physically . . . and then BAM! everything fell apart. I was drinking a little bit of wine every now and again, though, and had come off an SSRI without tapering a few months before, so those may have been factors. So I don't know. It's a mystery. I miss that healthy me so much though.

Originally Posted by -jimi-

About scientology, it's easy to get hold of books describing the basics. But you have to pay more and more for "higher" "scriptures" so basically no one has access to them. In my country some guy actually file shared I think two of those "higher" books, one of them my friend downloaded. It was not an easy read, but it did indeed mention what we normally would refer to as aliens and alien possession. For us it was just a funny joke before the stalking started.

Unfortunately this is not my first encounter with them, when I was a teen they had the area's biggest rehab clinic. My school sent kids there for work practice and also the scientologists were invited every year to lecture about drugs and try to get us interested in their "religion".

That's very interesting Jimi! Thanks for sharing that you actually saw mention of aliens and alien possession in those documents.

I knew that Scientologists operated rehab centers, but that seems odd to me that your school would send students over there. Is there still a lot of Scientology in your area?

[-jimi-]

I moved since then and had to google it. It seems that these days Narconon only has three rehab clinics in my country.

[-jimi-]

LOL sorry to offtopic so much but another friend had the standard book "The way to happiness", which is their low level book, sort of. Her and I read it aloud and we had the laugh of our lives.

I remember one quote... "The way to happiness is not through murdering your friends."

Well no crap??? LOL.

[AstridLovelight]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

I remember one quote... "The way to happiness is not through murdering your friends.".

Yeah, great advice!

[Altered Moment]

Very cool, Zinco, thanks for the thoughtful response! The question of suffering is something many of us throughout the ages have sought to understand, I suppose. And I appreciate your sharing the Christian Science philosophies you agree with. Those sound like things I agree with also!

I'm glad you've found at least a partial solution and things that work for you and that your spirituality brings you so much peace and contentment. Right now I'm thinking that for me spirituality and medication don't have to be mutually exclusive. A priest recently reminded me that, as Thomas Aquinas put it, God often works His miracles through secondary means. A decent mood stabilizer I could tolerate might actually enhance my spirituality (or it might not, I don't know....I still grapple with it.)

I did AA for a while, but had some weird experiences in some meetings. Was sober for many years without it, then relapsed for a couple of years and finally regained sobriety a couple of years through SMART recovery, which for me is an awesome program. But going to an AA meeting has crossed my mind recently as I'm in a new town and would like to meet people and get some support.

I like Pope Francis a lot too, I worry about his safety sometimes, though. That maybe he's shaking things up too much.

I am glad SMART recovery is helping. I believe we need a good support network for addiction and depression wherever it comes from.

The Catholics have had some very good philosophers throughout the years. St. Francis being one along with Aquinas.

Even the literature in AA says we often need outside help. To seek the wisdom of others whether it be priests, psychiatrists, medical doctors, therapists, whoever. I do not see meds and spirituality conflicting at all. Taking psyche meds is a highly individualized decision and should be an informed one.

I have not been very active in AA since I moved back to my hometown. I want to be though for the social aspect, the support, and I feel I owe it to the new guy or gal who walks into the room. This is how I stayed sober for twenty years. Someone has to be there for the new people. I have to be selective and cautious when getting support for my depression in AA. Sometimes I am very open about it in an open meeting and don't care. Like when in my home group that I went to everyday and everyone knew me. Today I would have to feel it out and take it slow for that aspect of it. Lots of crap and sick behavior goes on. We have to watch out for new people and be selective in who we get close with. It is an awesome support group though in my opinion with a good philosophy.

You know me and my Mom were just thinking that someone in the Vatican is going to poison Pope Francis. Or some nut will shoot him. I hope that doesn't happen. Even though he is pretty conservative as far as the church goes I think he is great.

[AstridLovelight]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one concerned about Pope Francis. He just ripped into the Vatican bureaucracy a couple of days ago, so there's probably a lot of grumbling and plotting going on!

And congratulations on over twenty years sobriety! And I hear what you're saying, for me one of the most healing parts of support groups has been being there for other people--as much as I can be anyway.

SMART is great. I haven't been to a meeting in a while, though. It's designed, as you probably know, to help with a variety of addictive behaviors. I used it for alcohol and my eating disorder. It helped a great deal with the alcohol, but I've since relapsed with my ED.

And thanks for the input on the psych meds, I really appreciate your views. One of the tragic things about having bipolar is that part of the illness is being resistant to outside help. So I don't even know if I'm competent to make an informed decision right now. I feel one way one minute, completely different the next. I don't trust myself, but I don't trust doctors either. It's a quandary. I have a dr. appointment tonight, though. So we'll see what happens and whether or not I can bring myself to take whatever he gives me.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by AstridLovelight

Glad to hear I'm not the only one concerned about Pope Francis. He just ripped into the Vatican bureaucracy a couple of days ago, so there's probably a lot of grumbling and plotting going on!

And congratulations on over twenty years sobriety! And I hear what you're saying, for me one of the most healing parts of support groups has been being there for other people--as much as I can be anyway.

SMART is great. I haven't been to a meeting in a while, though. It's designed, as you probably know, to help with a variety of addictive behaviors. I used it for alcohol and my eating disorder. It helped a great deal with the alcohol, but I've since relapsed with my ED.

And thanks for the input on the psych meds, I really appreciate your views. One of the tragic things about having bipolar is that part of the illness is being resistant to outside help. So I don't even know if I'm competent to make an informed decision right now. I feel one way one minute, completely different the next. I don't trust myself, but I don't trust doctors either. It's a quandary. I have a dr. appointment tonight, though. So we'll see what happens and whether or not I can bring myself to take whatever he gives me.

I understand. Especially if you have positive mania than who wants to take a drug that will take that away. I had a full blown manic episode with lots of psychosis that lasted over a year. The reasons it happened are complicated. I was flying high though and loved it. I took all the meds but they didn't really touch it. Even halidol.

I think a big factor would be if you do have manic episodes how big an impact to they have on your life. The meds for controlling the manic side are more effective than the meds for controlling the depression. And I believe that with bi polar I there is more of a biological factor than say the wide varieties of uni polar depression that exist. If it is bi polar II (which I think I have) it is a more difficult decision. My hypomania when I get it doesn't effect my life to much so I don't worry about it. If it is bi polar I with mixed and negative mania then that would make my decision.