[imapatient]

This is super-long winded, a rant, and probably will be seen as obnoxious by many people. But it's safer to say this here than in DT group. 2 incidents when I was processing. One today. I talked about it slightly with both T's this week; only my short-term one on what happened today.

Had 2 bad experiences in day treatment.

A major thing I’ve been dealing with since I feel really deep into depression, and something that caused, and has continued to motivate, my depression was falling apart while working on my PhD in 1999. I was just about to start my 4th year. I couldn’t function, took a medical leave, never recovered enough or in time to return.

I haven’t been able to get over it. It feels like complete failure to me. It’s one of my top, if not the, top practical issue.

I’ve dealt with it in individual and trying to in partial and now day treatment. People don’t understand what it’s about. They don’t understand how PhD’s work, that they’re unique types of degrees not quite comparable to any other. That they’re research, scholarly, “academic” degrees compared to “professional degrees”—where one is trained to work outside the academy in a profession—those are job training; law school, med school, msw, etc. It usu. drives people with professional degrees or non-research MA degrees to hear it talked about this way.

Someone in day treatment said, when I was talking about my trying to cope with not finishing, “It’s just a piece of paper.” She has no idea. 7 years of PhD-level work compared to her 1 year MA-level work in education so she can teach grade school. Not having it means being unable to have the career I wanted—one that everyone around me said was where I belonged. And a problem with it is not being around like-minded people all the time as would be in a university setting. I’ve always been considered weird for my intellectual bent, told I “over-analyze” too much. In grad school I was finally surrounded by people who were likewise very intellectually curious, were really smart, well-informed; I feel at home for the first time in my life. Normal. I never heard someone tell me I over-analyzed. There’s no such thing for a scholar; the whole work is your analysis, the better it is the more successful you are.

I won’t even get into the barriers to going back—It's hard enough to understand for those who don’t understand how that system works why can’t you just go back (and after so long) so easily. Many reasons in general and personal, mental illness above all. Since it was an Ivy League school, I guess I had some special pride in getting in and being there.

So I was really ticked when my main issued was dismissed as being about a mere “piece of paper.” Both my NYC T—PhD’s from Yale and Michigan; MA from Columbia (on faculty at another Ivy league school), and the local T I see—5th year PhD student in psych here at one of the top departments in her field, were aghast and saw it as condescending and insulting too.

I had a big issue growing up with my dad re: intellect. He put me down all the time saying things like “You think you’re so smart” “You’re not as smart as you think you are.” The big thing was telling me that I wasn’t smart enough to be an A student. That I was B student material and would be wasting my time trying to get A’s. Aim for B’s he said, once in while you might get an A and once in a while a C. No big deal.

In group today, I was talking about having gotten hostile over the weekend about some stuff—I went ballistic but didn’t act—part of the big situation involved being called an “idiot” by a limo driver who was right near the scene, not part of it, and who didn’t see what happened—I honked and rolled down my window to tell the person I almost killed that I almost hit her—she ran without looking in front of me, yada yada yada. It was a very tense few moments, my adrenaline kicked in as high as ever. I was ¼ of a second from severely injuring her or killing her.

So the T asked if anyone used to call me an idiot. I said no. I added on that my dad used to say the things to me I quoted above to maligning my intellect. And how out out-of-touch with reality it was for him to say that given my really high test scores—slam-dunk A student material.

One of the people asked “What’s wrong with being a B student?” Missing the point that my dad was trying to demean me with the comment, and that it was deliberately so and so out-of-touch with reality given my “test scores” as I put it, avoiding the “IQ” label. She steered it way from personal experience and feelings. No one else commented to her, and it was like trying to debate the general issue of what grades mean and why someone might care about them, that it can differ from person-to-person and in functional terms what it might have meant. Like she was oblivious to the fact that grades help shape one’s education trajectory and possibly other life opportunities.

I tried to avoid the test scores thing—always, because it’s like a taboo that one can never, ever speak of with general company, and I pulled my punches and referred to old young childhood scores of mine that were in the top 2 percent, without saying in adulthood I score at the high genius level. [You just can’t say that; it messes with people’s minds and makes things very awkward.] And always dreamed of going to Harvard growing up…..Like you know, someone of us aren’t happy with just a high school diploma, or a bachelor’s degree, or not going to an elite school.

But we shouldn’t have gone in a direction of what schooling and grades mean, etc. Someone should have stopped that as a tangent that ignored my feelings about a concrete dynamic that I grew up with. There was too little time to get into it further given her sort of objection-ish thing. It’s something I’ve always wanted to talk about—being put down by my father in an intellect-targeted way. A kind of ridicule from my father about it. He was really, really smart—a literal rocket scientist for part of his career—but he was threatened by me and he projected his insecurities on me.

I’ve had issues with some T’s about it, too—those I’ve met for evaluations who don’t know me well enough to understand that some of what I say about my abilities are realities, not grandiosities. And they’ve gone to schools way, way down list in rankings. A chip on their shoulders, I think, about it.

I just feel closed off from being able to talk about any of the intellect-related stuff. It seems arrogant and obnoxious to talk about it, like someone who’s very beautiful but isn't a model as a model and is severely depressed about it and complaining, ignoring the gifts she does have. What sympathy can you have? I got my grad school rejection letters from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton on the same day years ago. It was a real letdown for me, but no one in the world will offer sympathy for that--rightly so, I suppose, but it was a big blow to me at the time (I got in Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, a different Ivy League school, etc. so it wasn't grandiosity to think I could’ve gotten in those other 3). But no one else can conceive of it as a serious loss (of a childhood dream). Correction: My NYC T with a Yale PhD and 2 other Ivy League degrees and PhD from Michigan gets it. But he’s a rare exception.

I’d like to be able to talk in group about feeling insulted from the “piece of paper” thing and about seeming to have my feelings dismissed with the “What wrong with being a B student?” question. But I fear getting very defensive about it, not feeling that I can speak my mind freely, and above all, being dismissed and disregarded—as having a “psychological issue” for an experience a real to me and major loss, and being mistreated by some people in the group. It’s like you can’t talk about any of this stuff, or if so, I have no idea how to. But I think those 2 people were out of line. It’s very real to me. I think I’m going to let it go and not try to address any of those intellect-related issues again. Save it for individual.

[phoenix7]

I think you're right to save this for the individual session - your group does not sound supportive of your concerns - it doesnt sound like they can see it from your perspective - I hope things work out for you - take care P7

[Mouse_]

Impatient, the feeling I get when I try to read your posts is that unless you get the answers your wanting, then nothing else counts, you seem to undermind anyone who doesn't share in your intellect...you want so much to be heard, your posts are very detailed and long, it feels to me that you make no room for others experiences so perhaps they feel dis inclined to give you feed back because it al becomes irrelavent to you?? for some people an Phd is just a piece of paper, they see the world in a different way, they see it as place to be experienced rather than "solved"...I dont even understand half of what you are saying, so perhaps this is reflected in your group also? sorry if this sounds rather harsh, but maybe this is where the feelings of not being heard are coming from?? Are you hearing others? Or judging their feedback first?

[deliquesce]

one thing that has kept me at the uni i go to is the utter devastation i would feel if i were to let it go. it would feel like cutting off my arm - nay, my head.

phds aren't just pieces of paper. you pour your everything into it trying to get it to come to fruition.

i am trying to get into my honours year at my uni next year, and i know it will be the end of hope if i don't get accepted there. i will be able to go to 'lesser' unis, of course, but it's also like... i don't know. i want to go to the 'best' uni, and it kills me that my depression might make that not happen. it was a certainty before.

as for the comments re: your dad. i'm surprised and pleased and heartened you shared that with us, impy. i think that would have been such a big thing to pounce on in group, for anyone who has known how reluctant you are to reveal things about your past. i wish people had followed you there.

as for their reactions - 'just a piece of paper', 'what's wrong with Bs' - i understand why you're angry, but i don't think they did something wrong... just not what you needed. i get this a lot from people, but i think a part of that might be insecurities on their behalf. most people cannot gets As, many people do not even want to. but if you are a consistent B student, then it can be very challenging to hear that someone thinks that not good enough. i know there are misperceptions going on in that case, but i'm just talking from experience - i think it happens often.

i havent slept for 3 days, and i did an exam today, and to top it off that boy gave me a kiss this night (ugh), so im gonna stop hjere. maybe come back later and post again if i can (After sleep).

i think some of the things you did (how you responded) did not help you achieve what you wanted - to talk about the dad situation e.g., engaging with that lady about the B-comment. maybe an idea would have been to say "hold up - i dont want to go there - i want to focus on..." etc.

but apologies if this is muffled.

[TayQuincy]

My son is very intelligent and just got accepted to one of the best private colleges in the country. He is very intelligent and scored extremely high on the SAT and ACT. I am very proud of my son. I know he is brilliant. However, I have always been afraid that he puts way too much pressure on himself, and that if he ever got a B he would be completely devastated. So I am sure that I have, at times, tried to downplay the importance of getting all A's, of always needing to be perfect. I have wanted him to know that he doesn't have to be perfect all the time, that he isn't "less than" if he gets a B or even a C. Perhaps your father was trying to do the same with you. Maybe his intentions were not to ridicule you at all? The person who said a PHD is just a piece of paper could have been trying to communicate to you that not having that piece of paper (which is symbolic of the hard work put in to get it) doesn't mean you are any less intelligent than if you had it.

I can understand you wanting it, and the feelings of disappointment in not having fulfilled that dream (yet, because it's never too late). I'm not downplaying the significance of this for you. It just sounds like you think or feel that you aren't good enough without it. Really you are no different with or without it.

[Sannah]

Imapatient, I can see how this bothered you. It was your experience that you were sharing and this should have been the topic. Instead, they shared their issues with your experience (this topic was very important to you and they were debating the importance of your issue!)

Anyway, I can also see that you are still using your dad's paradigm and this might be what brings out resistance in others towards you. Your dad's paradigm was that there is a hierarchy that everyone needs to fit in to. You seemed to have hated your dad's hierarchy paradigm but you bought it and use it anyway? This happens...............

I can understand your grief about your PhD. I still think that you have time to heal, however, and get back there and finish it..........

Be careful of the road rage..............

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

for some people an Phd is just a piece of paper, they see the world in a different way, they see it as place to be experienced rather than "solved"...I dont even understand half of what you are saying, so perhaps this is reflected in your group also? sorry if this sounds rather harsh, but maybe this is where the feelings of not being heard are coming from?? Are you hearing others? Or judging their feedback first?

Mouse, you are trying to be helpful, and jump around that you seem to be trying to make many points but not clearly enough for me. I’m confused on some of it.

The point about the feedback that you raise and my response isn't for me to dismiss other's feelings; it's that they're dismissing my feelings with their feedback. Just as I feel you just did with your reference to a PhD being just a piece of paper to some people. The point is that I don't feel that way, and since I'm the one raising the issue as important enough to me to be causing me internal pain, that that's what the topic is and should be addressed--that I'm trying/wanting to address. We're not talking about having a discussion in general about what education is and means to people. it's about my feelings since I'm the one wanting to process it for myself during my turn in process group.

These others tried to import their own feelings about it--dismissing the meaning of a PhD and of not being a B student. They, and you, can hold whatever opinions about the subject for yourselves, but what was supposed to be going on was people helping me understand and cope with my feelings about the subjects to myself in my particular way. Telling me that I should've been fine being a B student ignores the fact that to me it was an issue. Of course, there are deeper meanings to the issues re: my sense of failure and sense of being abused by my father.

People go off on tangents frequently in process group, and I cringe when it happens to others, and try to point that out when I can. And it really ticks me off sometimes when it happens to me in very dismissive ways, not merely getting off topic.

Thanks for replying.

[Mouse_]

Yes I can see it ticks you off.

imp, i wonder if you could bring this up at your next group. i know you've said it's not always the same people in group but having a discussion about how you felt dismissed might still be helpful so you can express your discontent with what happened. also, i do understand the phd thing, although i didn't always. i have several friends who teach at the university level and i know it is pretty much required to have a phd to do that. of course what school your phd is from is quite important too in where you can get placed.

i have a lot of issues surrounding fear of failure and one thing that is helping me is coaching. sometimes it seems my progress is very haphazard and slow but it might be something to consider as well. one of the things i like about it is that it helps me to focus on specific, positive things i want to do and move forward with tangible results rather than being too focused on what i've messed up in my past. of course as one moves forward in the process the past stuff comes up but it is with a specific purpose and so i'm not as likely to dwell on it as much. it's all too easy to dwell on past mistakes and beat yourself up but coaching is solution-focused so i find that helpful.

take care

[pegasus]

((((( imapatient )))))

I have 11 doctoral level certificates. They are just bits of paper. They mean absolutely nothing unless you feel ok about yourself inside. The point being made to you was that the PhD IS just a bit of paper. You could have hundreds of bits of paper and still feel bad about yourself.

I'll give you an analogy. There's a vicar down the road who always wears dirty shoes and drives around the village in a beaten up old banger of a car. He always has a smile on his face and everyone respects and admires him. At the other end of the village is a flash chap that always dresses in a posh suit, has gold medalions, was educated at Harvard and drives around in a flash sports car. He is not a happy man and nobody likes him because he has his nose in the air all the time!

imapatient,

the few times i've been in group therapy i've found it to be a very varied group...all levels of education from post college to some without high school, some working professionals to others barely able to work due to severe illness or substance abuse. group therapy (much like with any group) gets you a group opinion....and everyone has their own. what i think about a phd or for that matter the importance of the yankees is just that what i think. it is important to me. i can listen to what you say, try to relate and empathize with you but thats about it.

from reading your posts in the past i know that education and your phd and your ivy leage schools are important to you. they get mentioned frequently...thats okay...i talk about my dogs...whatever works for you. sometimes people just can't relate. they try...they do their best but it just doesn't work...maybe they never had a dog, didn't grow up with one, never met one...what ever.

same with college...maybe they have no clue what a phd is, maybe havard, yale, columbia, etc intimidate them and your talk about them set them off a little. for the sake of the group and you they are trying their damndest to be helpful any way they can....and instead you are meeting them with hostility.

your dad had standards..good bad or whatever...seems like you have them too. hell i have my own...sometimes i am even aware of them. my parents set standards for me...my brother was the smart one, my sister was the pretty one, i was the short, fat ugly one destined to be dead by age 18 because i was too ugly, and stupid to be married and produce babies (as all women were supposed so do..weird evil parents).

i fought my parents. got a "ride" (and this was back in the 70's) to college...4 yrs free...screwed them over...they couldn't kill me...couldn't do a thing about it because of the ride got out of house and made a life.

i wanted graduate school. made plans to go on the government with the marine corps...they were changing their training plans for women and were looking for exercise physiologists...i was accepted and on my way...i was so proud...finally made a name for myself...really broken free from the house from hell...but then they realized i was too short by 1"...and i was declined.

so yes...i too have had graduate plans fall thru. it happens. you mourn...and you eventually move on. now it wasn't havard or yale..but to me it was the same. it hurt for a while and i still regret it and think how it would have changed my path...but i don't regret the course of my life.

look...i went to college...a damn fine private one...one of the top small ones in the midwest...graduated 3.4 gpa, on an athletic ride, written a novel, had a great career as a federal law enforcemnt officer, amongst other things...but ya know what...i might be taken back by some of the talk too.

people are in groups and therapy because they want to help and need help. i am sure they weren't trying to blow you off...give them the benefit of the doubt.

anyway...be gentle...maybe those same people are writing on other boards the same things about their struggles with you...and how you don't understand their lives....for all you know that guy sitting next to you might just be a phd from columbia working at mickey d's.

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by stumpy

maybe they never had a dog, didn't grow up with one, never met one....

people like this exist?! my babies are the world to me, and i love that you talk about yours too .

but yah - that was really generous post, stumpy. thank you so much for sharing. ((((stumpy and her doggies))))

[imapatient]

I'll end this here with this, because it's spun out of control and people are talking about wildly different things. And about their own meanings.

It's more than just a price of paper to me, if not to you Pegasus, that's your business. It’s a multi-dimensional issue for me, not as simple as self-worth.

What underlies the situation for me in practical terms is loss--not having the career I want, that seems to best fit me (according to everyone who’s known me), not being around people who I can relate to in very significant and important ways to me. I felt “normal" for the first time in my life in grad school. I was understood—mostly—whereas typically I was thought of as being weird by people who couldn’t understand my thoughts, patterns, and communication style. On getting there the people surrounding me were very intellectual and intellectually curious. Never had that before; it's a loss of feeling at home in a major way for me. I'll not find a situation of being surrounded every day by very like-minded and seriously intellectual and curious and a smart as I was then. People I learned from everyday. Now and then, yes, like that on an all-encompassing, daily basis, no. I won't have many other things that I want(ed) that will come life-experience wise with traveling in certain circles that were/would-have-been available to me. It's harder for me to find people that I feel as compatible with outside of that world. To find a woman to spend my life with.

The practical stuff is far less reversible, the self-worth dimension is just like what all of us deal with.

Getting into Partial Hospitalization and Day Treatment was the second most important practical circumstance for me of feeling "normal." Being around people who live with many of the same struggles, similar life circumstances due to their mental illnesses, striving for help--I'm “normal” in a very important but different ways (than in school) being surrounded by people I consider peers of a different sort. (When I got very politically active 5 years ago I felt “normal” too being around politically like-minded people all the time, too.)

There's a lot about this that I can't articulate--yet--but I'm trying to, hence I keep talking about it. I'm trying to understand and be understood, starting with myself. People focus on their losses here all the time.

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by stumpy

imapatient,

for the sake of the group and you they are trying their damndest to be helpful any way they can....and instead you are meeting them with hostility.

Stumpy,

I haven’t met them with hostility. I haven't made any comment to them b/c I've felt angry the few times and didn't feel comfortable or safe enough in being able to stay reasonable. So I've been silent. I'm expressing those feelings here to help me get them out and hopefully prepare myself to address things in a more productive way in group.

[deliquesce]

impy - i understand you are an intelligent person. i understand that you feel a sense of loss etc, and that this also ties in with stuff from your childhood. however, you do come across as very hostile at times (e.g., calling people in your group "lame" because they didnt give you the response you wanted, seeing red at the limo driver calling you an "idiot"), and i think that does play a part in provoking some of the responses you get here. i feel i need to be very careful in what i say sometimes, and how i say it, for fear that you will lash out at me also.

another thing that strikes me is that you have only responded to people here who have given you answers that you didn't want and/or don't believe are true of yourself. e.g., you only responded to mouse and pegasus (who both mentioned the "piece of paper" thing) and then only responded to one part of stumpy's post where she made an (erroneous, to you) guess that perhaps you were coming across as hostile to people in your group, also.

on the other hand, P7, myself, tayquincy, sannah, reflection and stumpy all did make posts which i thought were empathetic and which had useful suggestions, yet you didn't bother to respond to them? it confuses me because it's like you're missing/forgetting/ignoring/not seeing all the support here that you *are* receiving. i would love to engage with you on this issue and really get into the nitty gritty of it, but a part of me also cant be arsed because it feels like anything empathetic and/or constructive is not being heard.

now - the thing is - you know i adore you, and count you one of my favourites on PC . i'm not saying anything in this post to hurt you - i'm just offering a perspective (my valid perspective) that i'm hoping will be helpful. if i am completely off the mark, and you choose to disregard this post, then that is ok. but i will personally fly over to america and kick your head so far up your arse if you even think for a second that i am being "dismissive" of your pain. so. if you would like your head to continue sitting on top of your neck (and if you would also like to do the friendly thing and not make me spend money i dont have on a trip to the US), please try to see this post for what it is. just deli offering unconditional love (bar the head-kick comment) for a friend she adores whom she can see is hurting.

"I'll end this here with this, because it's spun out of control and people are talking about wildly different things. And about their own meanings."

ah....not for nothing...but isn't that sort of the point of posting something for discussion in a public forum? or for that matter group therapy?

when i post here i expect responses to be good, bad and ugly. some will be supportive, and on target, others not so and some totally miss the boat. you get that...people don't know me...don;t know my background, my issues, really anything about me except what i choose to post and present, and in the attitude i opt to present it. they also read it with the same that they bring to it. so their responses might be skewed too. you get what you get.

that said...i read every one. some i value more than others, but i do read them. i may not agree, some piss me off, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. and i will never tell anyone here to never respond to any post i write...because they are allowed to have an opinion...who am i to tell them not to. their day may be sucky, so their opinion may be also, but they can still have one.

look we have all had loss, we have all had pain, goals, good experiences acceptances etc....i feel compfortable with some groups of people more than with others...i think thats a fairly common thing. some of my friends know a great deal about my various histories, others little.

so...what's the point? we all live like that...it's a common factor...probably dating back to cave man times...you do what needs to be done to protect yourself and survive. dogs don't show pain to thir pack mates. pain indicates weakness which could get them killed or lose status in the pack. in the wild, this would mean death...some ancient cultures did this as well.

i guess my point is...you want feedback you post. you get feedback. 10 people give you 10 responses. love them,, hate whatever.

most folks would have tried to give the same support whether the issue was the phd, education thing or having a sports car, or if you thought your dog was gay. i'm not trying to trivialize the issue but trying to show you that support is support...you ask you get..people know its important, otherwise you wouldn't ask...just cut everyone else a break for not realizing that maybe your issues don't take the top of the list over everyone elses.

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by stumpy

"I'll end this here with this, because it's spun out of control and people are talking about wildly different things. And about their own meanings."

Stumpy, I'm referring to myself, too, with the above statement. I've gone out of control and veered her and there.

Deli, thank you for your post. I take it in your helping role that you do so well. I'm commenting because I really, really need help understanding what's going on here. I'm very confused.

{I did thank Mouse for her initial post.}

Hostile in some of what I wrote? Yes, in talking about the group in my first post I did that and posted about my hostile feelings that I couldn’t understand where they came form with my non-acted upon road-rage. I also didn't act against my group but came here to help me get perspective. Part of the point was to express my feelings--are a certain type of feelings aren't o.k. to have and to post about in relation to others in the world I'm trying to deal with? I got carried away with the negative stuff to the exclusion of the good comments here. We all say hostile things here about people in our life now and then. People do it all the time about their T's and pdocs—far worse than my comments. I was reacting to people who are playing a part as quasi-therapists in my DT program—that’s part of group therapy, not to random people who play no role in trying to help me. Also, as if people don’t make harsh comments, too, about others from their life in their posts. So my head is spinning, I'm not seeing a distinction that others are seeing.

I’d like this thread closed, for whom it may concern. If anyone has anything to say to me, please PM me.

Thank to everyone for trying to help me recognize things about myself.

[Christina86]

As per the original posters request, this thread is now closed.

Christina86