[deliquesce]

i think it's great that we have a dedicated team of mods & administrators here at PC who really try to keep improving the community experience for all of us. so first up - thank you for starting the new section!!!

just an area of confusion, however: transference here gets discussed so often - what it is, what it isn't etc. and most of the threads in the psychotherapy section deal with feelings towards our Ts e.g., trust, alliance, anger, dependence & wanting a parental figure etc.

i'm just wondering if the new section is specifically about romantic/sexual feelings towards our therapists? or if it's just a "general" transference thingy? because if it's meant to be "general", i could see 75% of the threads in here get moved to there, lol.

if it's meant to be the more specific type (discussed in the article DocJohn posted), could we maybe rename the subforum, or have a sticky about what to include there?

i'm just a bit confused about how to break up what i post where, and i do have a tendency to get majorly upset when my threads get moved around - usually because i've agonised over where they're most appropriate first. but that's just me, ack .

[rainbow8]

Me too, Deli. Most of our threads are about our relationship to our Ts, and most often the feelings include some transference. Not all threads, but you're right. So, I would also like an administrator or mod to explain what is supposed to go in the new forum. Thank you.

[sunrise]

Deli, I've been concerned too. Therapy is so much about the feelings toward the therapist that this is talked about in just about every thread in the psychotherapy forum. In addition, you can have lots of feelings toward your therapist without them being transference, so it seems strange to me to lump "feelings toward my therapist" in with "transference."

As I wrote in another thread, I'm worried they are going to split up the psychotherapy forum into a bunch of subforums to talk about separate issues, like EMDR, CBT, transference, boundary crossings, the therapeutic frame, termination, choosing a therapist, etc. So much of all of this is intertwined. Abd we have such a nice community here--I don't want to see the administrators breaking that up.

I would like to ask the moderators to let people make the choice on whether they start a thread in the main Psychotherapy forum or the Transference subforum. Don't move a thread started in PT to Transference just because it may be related to transference. Leave it up to the original poster to decide which community and forum he/she wants to start the thread in. Is that possible?

I also wonder if a moderator could share with us why a separate subforum was started. Were there requests for that from members? Were some people uncomfortable posting directly about transference in the Psychotherapy forum?

In his explanatory thread in the Transference subforum, DocJohn wrote:

Originally Posted by DocJohn

we've gone ahead and setup this forum so that folks will have a place to discuss their transference issues and feelings toward their therapist.

We hope you find this a supportive and helpful environment.

I thought we already had a place to discuss transference issues and feelings toward the therapist that was supportive and helpful. But I guess having a subforum would give an extra "layer" of protection for people who would feel more comfortable with that. But please, moderators, don't move threads started in the PT forum even if you think they are related to transference and feelings. Trust a person to know which forum they want their thread in. Thanks.

[Christina86]

Hello everyone - I can't speak for DocJohn (so please keep that in mind), however I can see the importance of having a separate forum for transference related issues when that is the only primary issue. When posts are about "loving" their therapist, and that's all the post is about I would imagine it would be better suited for the new sub-forum. (That's just my interpretation mind you).

It also makes the Psychotherapy more open to discussing the other issues that we experience in therapy, like termination or finding a good therapist. Or it could just be a rant about a therapist's particular way of doing things or specific school of training (like Freudian, or if your therapist only does CBT or DBT etc).

Yes, it's not exactly cut and dried but I don't think DocJohn was trying to make it more difficult - just sometimes easier to navigate and make it less cluttered and more organized.

Posts do get moved, just like in all the other forums. If they seem to be better suited for another forum they will be moved. It's not usually something that is done lightly especially with posts that are not straightforward.

One example being a post in General that's about a health issue - then it gets moved to the Health Issues forum. Or if a post in Anxiety would be better suited for Depression then it's moved there, etc. Those would be fairly straightforward. But if it's a more complicated topic or issue, then it's discussed amongst the Community Team (the moderators and administrators) who reach a decision about what to do about a post that needs to be moved.

Most of the time the member who started the thread (or "original poster") is informed of this move via PM. If they're not, then that's an oops, but it does happen sometimes. (I admit I'm sometimes prone to forgetfulness and I apologize for that).

When subforums are created, some previously existing posts from the "main" forum are moved into the new forum to give an example of the types of posts that would be suitable for that forum. For example, when the Addictions forum was split into subforums, some of the more recent posts/threads about smoking and pornography addiction were moved into the newly created subforums.

If you ever have a specific question about an administrative issue (like posts being moved, or asking a question about a new subforum), please do not make a post on the forums, because we may not see it for some time (we are all volunteers after all and don't always have a lot of free time). But please feel free to send a PM to a moderator or administrator and someone will reply to you or send off the PM to someone else who can better assist.

I hope that answers all the questions and concerns, at least a bit. I'm sure DocJohn will give a response here soon.

Cheers
Christina

[sunrise]

Thanks for your thoughts, Christina. I realize you don't speak for DocJohn or other moderators, but wondered if you could clarify this as it seemed to be your own thought:

Originally Posted by Christina86

I can see the importance of having a separate forum for transference related issues when that is the only primary issue

What is the importance? Many threads are on a specific topic but each topic doesn't need its own subforum. What is the special importance of Transference having its own subforum? Just trying to understand...

Originally Posted by Christina86

It also makes the Psychotherapy more open to discussing the other issues that we experience in therapy, like termination or finding a good therapist. Or it could just be a rant about a therapist's particular way of doing things or specific school of training (like Freudian, or if your therapist only does CBT or DBT etc).

The PT forum has been very open to all of those topics.

Posts do get moved, just like in all the other forums. If they seem to be better suited for another forum they will be moved. It's not usually something that is done lightly especially with posts that are not straightforward.

I would just like to ask that moderators not be heavyhanded with their moderation. (I've been a mod myself at other sites, so I know this can be a fine line.) This is a close and dynamic community here in the PT forum, and I'm suggesting just that where people choose to start a thread be respected. If they choose to make it in the "Transference" subforum because they want an extra layer of protection or for another reason, that's great. But if they want it in Psychotherapy, consider leaving it there, as long as it is related to therapy. Give people credit to know which place best suits their needs. Is that an option?

I don't think DocJohn was trying to make it more difficult - just sometimes easier to navigate and make it less cluttered and more organized.

As a longtime moderator and admin at other boards, I urge you to beware of this impulse. It is sometimes best to be conservative when subdividing, and really assess whether there is a need, perhaps even checking in with users every so often to get their views. The PT forum is a popular one. Has it gotten too big and needs subdivision to reduce "clutter"? I'm not sure. What are your criteria?

If you ever have a specific question about an administrative issue (like posts being moved, or asking a question about a new subforum), please do not make a post on the forums because we may not see it for some time

In some situations, I think there can be value to making a post as then other community members can give input. But letting a mod know of the post is helpful, as then they know it is there and can respond. JMO. I'm glad Deli posted for all to see.

[deliquesce]

thanks for taking the time to reply, christina!

i hope sunnie's questions can get addressed - they are similar to the concerns i have. actually - more specifically, i'm worried that posts on erotic transference (where you love your therapist etc, as opposed to the more general forms we find everywhere) will no longer be welcome in the "general" area of psychotherapy. my big issue with that is that it then feels like those sorts of topics are taboo - to be hidden away, not to be out in public. it triggers a sense of shame in me.

i can see how other ppl would totally appreciate that extra level of privacy, however. i guess i'm just echoing sunnie's thoughts about the possibility of letting us choose where transference-type posts are allowed to sit. i've posted a few times here about erotic transference towards my various Ts, and i appreciate that it's been out in the open and that lots of ppl have had an opportunity to respond.

Originally Posted by Christina86

If you ever have a specific question about an administrative issue (like posts being moved, or asking a question about a new subforum), please do not make a post on the forums, because we may not see it for some time (we are all volunteers after all and don't always have a lot of free time). But please feel free to send a PM to a moderator or administrator and someone will reply to you or send off the PM to someone else who can better assist.

oh yes. i'm sorry, i probably should have thought to bring this thread to a mod's attention, i just didnt think about it. but it was my intent that this not just be a discussion between me & a mod, because i know other ppl have expressed a bit of confusion in other threads also, so i thought it would be a good place for us to discuss what the new subforum meant and for everyone to get the same information at the same time.

but in the future - will certainly send a pm with a link to one of the admin team!

[imapatient]

It makes no sense to me. Or, to the extent it does, the sense it makes is only negative.

Here I delve into the heavy intellectual side of therapy and theory, so be forewarned.

In great part, most--or almost all--of the major figures in psychology and psychiatry think that the essence of psychotherapy is transference. Perhaps some are less familiar with that notion, but I bet most are.

My current T explains it in terms of object relations: There is a primary object--parent, spouse, etc.--that patients have issues with to work on, and the T becomes a secondary object who represents the primary object to the patient--in the patient's mind. The patient projects onto the T the characterizes of the primary object and forms feelings and thoughts about the T as if they were--in part--that other person, e.g. parent. But it's easier to work through the issues with T because...somehow he explained that I can’t do justice to...the T isn't really the primary object and the related thoughts and feelings the patient has about the T can be demonstrated to be untrue, hence being easier to deal with. Also that in therapy working issues out is the whole point whereas in "real world" relationships working things out isn't the main point, often times can't be done due to other issues, e.g. the other person might be incapable or unwilling to delve deeply into the nature of things. What can be done in therapy is less polarized than in the real world precisely because the T isn't the abuser, etc. and that difference opens up possibilities for exploration and change not present in the "real world." Transference is the “meat” of therapy according to leading intellectuals in the field.

Separating out non-romantic/non-erotic feelings for a T from romantic/erotic ones is a false dichotomy and almost certainly they interact. The only way that I can see a potentially meaningful distinction is when the attraction to the therapist is purely physical. I had a very beautiful female T and my attraction to her was a very major issue for me, but it wasn’t separate from the other feelings—of all kinds. Purely physical doesn’t exist, IMO, in therapy.

If transference--in general or just specifically the romantic/sexual kind--is taken out of the psychotherapy forum, what's left in it? "I can't afford therapy" "T didn't call me back" "I missed an appointment" "How do I find a T" Many of those are logistics, not the meat of therapy.

It all belongs together. A meaningful and practical distinction is impossible in the real world between the two kinds of transference.

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

thanks for taking the time to reply, christina!

more specifically, i'm worried that posts on erotic transference (where you love your therapist etc, as opposed to the more general forms we find everywhere) will no longer be welcome in the "general" area of psychotherapy. my big issue with that is that it then feels like those sorts of topics are taboo - to be hidden away, not to be out in public. it triggers a sense of shame in me.

oh yes. i'm sorry, i probably should have thought to bring this thread to a mod's attention, i just didnt think about it. but it was my intent that this not just be a discussion between me & a mod, because i know other ppl have expressed a bit of confusion in other threads also, so i thought it would be a good place for us to discuss what the new subforum meant and for everyone to get the same information at the same time.

but in the future - will certainly send a pm with a link to one of the admin team!

Dead-on Deli. The attempt to separate is a literal putting of therapy issues into different categories, that's not how therpay works so why should it be like that here? I, too, feel a sense of judgment about romantic transference being treated as less appropriate with separation. I can see separating out some things like specific treatments for anxiety, the dynamics of different types of therapy, cbt, etc.

This is a community issue, not one for individuals and mods to work on privately. Like in group therapy, if it's about the group, the group works through it together.

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by sunrise

[I] wonder(ed) if you could clarify this as it seemed to be your own thought:What is the importance? Many threads are on a specific topic but each topic doesn't need its own subforum. What is the special importance of Transference having its own subforum? Just trying to understand...

Great post, Sunrise.

A major point that I overlooked that comes to mind when reading Doc John's article is that he uses the term "transference" inappropriately. He uses it to refer to romantic/sexual feelings. In fact transference is an overall category regarding patient's feelings for their T's that arise out of patient's projecting things onto their T's that aren't really about or a part of the T as a person. Romantic/sexual transference is just one kind of transference.

He also refers to transference (the romantic/sexual kind) as a "side-effect" of therapy. It's not a side-effect; it's a central part of the "meat" of therapy. The extent of its role varies by therapy relationship. I wonder what a broader selection of mental health pros would think of this attempt to make such an absolute distinction, and of how transference has been characterized in the reasoning behind making this division.

Originally Posted by Christina86

When posts are about "loving" their therapist, and that's all the post is about I would imagine it would be better suited for the new sub-forum.

I just want to chime in and say I share in the confusion.

Do you mean that when posts are about being "in love" with their therapist they will be moved? I love my T, but I am not "in love" with him...we have been working together for 2 years, and I have real, here and now feelings for him, including love...and I also have moments of transference towards him as well. It's all so intertwined. Who will judge what is "transference" and what are "here and now" feelings?? Or will ALL posts that mention feelings/love towards our Ts get moved??

I agree with Sunny...the PT forums feels like a safe, close community to me. I don't like the thoughts of my posts about T being moved.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by treehouse

I just want to chime in and say I share in the confusion.

Boy me too. I was last here on Friday, and by Monday things have really changed.

The intro note said that part of the reason for the new subforum was the response to a blog about transference - if I remember correctly the response was a storm of comments, including some negative ones, and one day the whole thread was summarily yanked - it was the only time I have seen that happen - the question arises, is this topic some kind of a problem for the PC admin or something?!

Others posting here rightly point out that the relationship IS the basic element of therapy. It has been written in many places that until transference occurs, in whatever form it is going to take for the particular client & therapist, therapy cannot really begin. If you separate that essential element from this forum, there's not much left to talk about.

[DocJohn]

Easily fixed... just a wording mistake on my part.

[googley]

Originally Posted by DocJohn

Easily fixed... just a wording mistake on my part.

DocJohn-
I was hoping your post was going to clear up the issues/questions raised about the new transference sub-forum but it does not seem to do that. As it is specifically unclear as to what you are referencing. Are you planning on posting more about what it is to be used for specifically and if/when people's posts might be moved from the general PT form into the new sub forum? Are sub forums things that are traditionally started without the input of members who use the general thread? Thanks.

[BlueMoon6]

I will add my 2 cents here as well. I think Sunrise said it well. I dont see the need for a subforum, and I am hoping posts dont get moved. I appreciate the continutity of this forum in that a poster's story may continue in a number of threads. It may chop it up should some part of the story involve transference, which most of do have as part of our stories to one degree or another, and have to post that somewhere else or see a post moved.

I agree that the best solution would be to leave the decision up to the poster as to which forum a post belongs and, as a policy, not move posts to the transference sub-forum even if the subject involves transference. As an aside, I do see the need in an addictions forum as various addictions are best discussed separately ie drugs and alcohol, gambling, sex etc. But I dont see transference as clear-cut. Is how I felt about desk-t really so different from what went on during my conversations in session with her? I cant separate that out. And, actually, it is probably the same with ftt, transference truly is the "meat" of therapy.

I do want to add that, for me, I appreciate the efforts of the adminstrators and moderators to keep the conversations here flowing and to do everything they can to enhance a feeling of community and safety. It isnt unapprecited, truly, but I think posters here are a little concerned that the subforum will add "clutter." I, for one, dont feel that having a variety of different topics here are creating clutter. Its interesting and helpful.

[DocJohn]

Hi folks,

We start sub-forums when we see the need for them. While I appreciate the community's input and feedback on things, we generally don't require it in order to take action on behalf of the larger Psych Central community and website (of which this is part).

I thought the transference issue was clarified by its complete removal from the name, description and introductory post to the forum. The new forum is meant to discuss romantic feelings toward one's therapist. While it may indeed include transference, it is not a requirement of the new forum. Transference topics can continue to be posted here in the main forum, but topics having to do with attraction, romantic or sexual feelings toward one's therapist should be posted in the new forum.

Thank you,
DocJohn

[MINIME]

huh??????????????????????????????????????????

[MINIME]

Oh yeah I forgot to add. What happened? So we can talk about transference? Cus I am so in deep with that. I dont have any romantic feelings towards my therapists they are girls but sometimes they piss me off to the point I know its mot just them its past stuff. Is that transfrence?

lol I just read the name of the new subforum....well it is self expanatory...so Yeah um...ok. See I think I may have had transfrence on Doc John...lol he was taking something and making it scary when it was helpful...but um no he isnt...yeah for being me. lol

[rainbow8]

I don't like it but it doesn't seem like we have a choice. Guess we have to "go with the flow". It's not such a big deal. I just wonder if those posters on that blog will find their way here. I sort of thought that was the idea.

[Brightheart]

There has been a long-running thread on the blogs about this and I believe that is why the new sub-forum was put in here. So folks would stop posting there so much and post here instead. This way the conversations can be better monitored.

[DocJohn]

Indeed, the new forum was meant to cater to that long-running blog thread, as our blog is not setup as a discussion forum... hopefully it'll encourage some of those folks to register and continue the discussion here (we may close the blog thread anyway).

DocJohn

[sidony]

Wow, I'd been off the forum for a while and showed up to see that subforum. I was really surprised by it! I'd agree with everyone that you can't actually separate romantic feelings for a therapist from other parts of therapy. They're all intertwined. Basically, you've created a Psychotherapy forum that also has a Psychotherapy sub-forum. Is and always will be confusing. Not to mention I don't think it's helpful to segregate romantic feelings like they're taboo or something. I'd go so far as to say I think that's actively hurtful, adds a shame element to the process. So I dislike having an extra forum like that.

But I do understand that the idea was to direct people here from another thread. Why not add a description? Or a sign or welcoming message above that forum? Or a link to that forum from the blog, with a big invite?

I think Sunrise expressed it best in her questions.

Thanks,
Sidony

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by sidony

But I do understand that the idea was to direct people here from another thread. Why not add a description? Or a sign or welcoming message above that forum? Or a link to that forum from the blog, with a big invite?

This is the blog
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/04/29/i-think-im-in-love-with-my-therapist/

There were 399 replies to it last time I counted and I do believe this is why the forum was created and yes there is an invite and link to the forum.

[sidony]

Originally Posted by pegasus

yes there is an invite and link to the forum.

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to say a link to this forum. I think segregating them is not a good idea. Implies divisions that don't exist.

But I realize there's nothing I can do about it. Just wanted to express that I don't like it. :-)

Thanks, Sidony