Do hugs really resolve the unmet needs?

Yes, yes, yes. You said it perfectly

((((((((((((((((((Moon))))))))))))))))))))

I came to a realization very similar to Luce's in my therapy...and it was one of the most painful things I have EVER had to endure. But like Luce said, somehow accepting that loss did free me up to feel and appreciate what I DO have now.

I don't think it is something someone can TELL you to do, like desk T was doing. And I don't even think it is something you can just "decide" to do, like "you know what? I'm going to accept that that child never got what she needed, and I'm going to move on!". At least I couldn't.

For me, it was a slow, slow, slow, gradual process. I don't even know what led me to that place....if it was the honest and deep work we did on traumas, if it was the deep longing I felt for T's love, if it was something else, if it was EVERYTHING...but when the realization of what I had really lost hit me, it hit me hard. It hurt. It wasn't a cognitive thing at all...it was something FELT, way deep down inside. And somehow, that was the beginning of acceptance, and of being able to accept the love that I DO have now.

It's one thing to "know" something, and it's another thing to "feel" something. Of course you want to go back and get what you couldn't get as a child. It was the saddest thing in therapy when I realized how much I longed for that. We didn't get what we deserved as children, and it just sucks.

Healing is a slow process, sweet moon Try not to rush yourself, and try not to judge yourself. You are working hard. Try to have trust in your internal wisdom, and I know it will guide you to the place you need to be to truly heal.

Lots and lots of to you

I have no idea, but from the little i know about therapy there are lots of different types that are suitable for different people with different needs. I think it is okay if someone feels a hug is helpful, but i also think it is okay for someone not to need a hug. I'm not sure if i sounds glib but the general gist of most of these posts seems to be (for me!) that a hug isn't just physical contact, it is the result of being able to trust ourselves and someone else in showing true care and understanding. I don't know what unmet needs are exactly, but to learn/be able to show genuine affection that may have been hidden through fear must be a good thing.

I'm really glad you wrote this Blue because i've been trying to think if i'm a huggy person or not and i couldn't find the answer which was quite upsetting. I am sometimes very huggy of close family but at other times i don't want anyone to come near me, not ever! I want affection but not all the responsibilities that come with it. Does that make me selfish?

I do/did this! I called it a comfort dream though. As a child i used to have a reoccuring dream about a mum taking care of a little girl. It was the ultimate perfect dream for any little girl to have. I had it for about 12 yrs on and off, and i'd feel so much better when i woke up and used to hope that the night's sleep would bring it. It wasn't till 2yrs ago that i realised it was a comfort dream and i was both the mother and the child, as up to that point i only identified with the child. My comfort dream has changed now and i now identify more with the mother. I'm kinda sad that i had to have that awakening to realise what my dream meant because i loved the dream, but i guess now i have more control and can daydream about it when i feel lonely...it isn't the same though.

I kinda went off track a bit. Hugs mean so much to me; they mean genuine comfort, love and care, but i also remember times when i had to hug to forgive and forget when i really wasn't ready to so it can become a meaningless gesture (pseudo hugs?). I also remember times when i was scared during a hug, not in a bad way, but i remember hugging my mum and feeling so in sync with her but the minute i did/said something that brought her back to the present there would be this massive pull away. Completely ordinary situation so i don't know why i remember it so vividly.

Anyway too much rambling for one day!

I like this very much. And I agree. It rings true for me, too.
That is how I am, too. To hug or not to hug, it depends on where I am in the moment. If I feel safe ands without fear, but maybe most people are that way. As I was reading this, it occurred to me that I could possibly use a hug to diffuse my feelings, to push away some fear instead of acknowledge the fear.
As far as being selfish if you dont want the respinsibility that comes with the hug, I understand your questiion and why you would say that. Hmmmm....are you selfish if you dont want the resp? Id say no, of course not, if you are hugging someone who cares about you and sharing a close moment, then the only strings that would be attached to that (responsibility) would be in your (and my) mind. If that makes sense.

Thanks for sharing the dream. It was very touching to me.

I also can relate to the pulling away moment during a hug with your mother. I remmeber a sudden disconnect with my mother if she hugged me or said something nice. Not sure of the memory there for me, but I do relate strongly with what you said. Thanks.

Tree- This is EXACTLY what went on my therapy with dt. Exactly. She'd TELL me things to and think, and then I try and couldnt. She'd tell me to act as if, and it didnt take mych trying to know I just could not do it. This is exactly why she was the wrong therapist for me. I think she didnt know what to do with me beyond telling me what to think and what to do. I know htis doenst have to do with hugs, or maybe it does...but last night all I did was dream about her. Dreams where she is good to me and we have a long, intimate conversation and I feel closer to her. In one of the dreams, she moved the desk and we were sitting in another part of the room together and she responded to me exactly as I have always wanted her to. It is kind of sad. And I woke up kind of sad. She became my perfect mommy. Finally. The strange thing is....I have never, and probably would never, have this kind of dream about my mother. Never. I cannot imagine wanting this kind of love or attention from her. My dreams and everything else points to feeling that I want it from her and that there is a void there, but I have NO connection at all to those feelings for my actual mother.

I am reading this with awe. Because it wasnt a cognitive thing. It was something felt. I cannot imagine feeling this, though cognitively I can do it. I still have the craving, but cognitively I know I have to move on and get these things from my h and children. That isnt a problem, but it doesnt take away the longing.

I have yet to feel that sadness. Do you think I have to remember a time when I wanted my mother's love? I have not connection to that feeling toward her. I remember wanting my father and sad, longing feelings, but not for my mother. As far as what I felt toward her, I always felt neutral and as if she were no one to me. I do remember feeling angry toward her as a teenager. But thats it for my feelings. How do I get to something that is probably there? It looks like it is because of the intense mommy-feelings I have toward dt and when I see mothers and babies together.

I dont get it...I really dont. Is there anyone with any thoughts about this?

Thank you, Tree. Thank you so much.

This is not how it felt for me. It was really more of a felt thing than a cognitive thing. It didn't feel tied into my mom (or dad) at all...it was just the deep, deep, deep longing of a young me. The feeling of not being loved, no matter what I did. The sadness of not being able to ever go back and redo it and let that child be loved. Deep, painful longing and emptiness and awareness of the pain.

That is something that has been part of *my* healing journey. Everyone's is different...everyone has their own experience, and reactions, and defenses, and memories, and wisdom. When I started therapy, I had NO expectations, because I had never been in therapy before and really knew nothing about how it worked. I just knew I wanted to feel better.

Let your path unfold however it unfolds. There is really no way to look ahead and see what the things will be that *you* need to heal. Each time I feel like I reach a deeper stage of healing in therapy, I look back and am totally surprised at what brought me to that point. Your journey will not look like anyone else's. It will be your very own

I get it. All I have is the cognitive thing now. I understand, but dont have the connection to feeling it yet. I say yet, because I am trusting here what you say and what everyone else says. But I dont feel that I have missed anything. I truly mean that. I dont feel it at all. I SO SO SO relate to the longing of a very young me, but I dont remember what I was longing for. If that makes any sense. That feeling of not being loved no matter what I did. But no connection to who or where I wanted to love to come from. Feeling that sadness now? Im not there. I KNOW cognitively I need to re-do. There is a "movie-like" sensation to the way I remember things, as if it is her (little girl) and not me. And I feel like SHE needs to re-do.

That is very soothing for me to hear. Sigh.....

Speculating here, but maybe connecting to that painful emotion has been too much for you to endure. I don't know what you family situation was like growing up or about your relationship with your mom, but I think that kids do what they have to in order to survive. If you don't remember feeling emotionally connected with your mom, maybe there was something there that caused you to disconnect with those emotions. There could have been needs that didn't get met and you put your feelings aside in order to not face the pain of their absence.

Perhaps as your relationship with ftt grows deeper and your trust builds, you'll be able to allow yourself to find the emotional connection to your pain...little by little. And then eventually find your way through it.

BH- That is my issue in a nutshell. What I have been told is I shut down from her very young. Before I can remember. I know I felt this way in pre-school, which was about 4-ish and for sure I remember feeling this way in kindergarten, which would be 5-ish. I have specific memories of that. How can I get in touch with needs that I must have had so young, dont remember having, but have left me with this yearning for a mommy-person when I dont recall wanting a mommy? How can I grieve when there are no feelings? I have said before its as if my feelings are unreachable. They have fallen down a hole somewhere, I cant reach them but I know they are there. To me, but I do feel a small child inside of me that can feel sad. Its as if she can cry for a mommy, but not me.

I am trusting in that. I cant imagine it, but Im hoping because that is what everyone says can heal this kind of thing. When I talk about this with ftt, I get real scared of my deeper, mommy emotions.

I'd say, ignore whatever you think must be so for you and start from where you are right now.

Take a look at exactly how you experience having those needs. You could be thinking you have them, for instance -- which is perfectly OK, but is not the same as feeling them. If you confuse these two ways of experiencing, you're pretty sure to find yourself confused too.

If you seem to have a yearning for a mommy-person, pay attention to that yearning and how you experience it. Again, notice if you think you must have a yearning, if you feel something you identify as a yearning, if you see yourself regularly behaving as if in response to a yearning, or whatever it is you're actually aware of. Once you accurately identify what it is that you experience, you'll be better able to attend to whatever it's trying to tell you.
Again, pay attention to how you know you need to grieve and how you know you have those unreachable feelings. One way I sometimes do that is to declare to myself that I don't seem to have any such feelings and that if in fact they're there, they'll need to make themselves known. Sometimes they've made themselves known in surprising ways; other times I've found myself doing just fine without them.

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Another way I've seen this put is that if you want to know how to get to Chicago, it makes a big difference whether you're starting from New York or from Los Angeles.

Hi FZ. I read this post this morning and I was thinking about it on and off all day. I had been PMing with a friend about my feelings toward deask-t and about how very, very much I love and miss her. I wont go on and on, but there are so many things I miss and I have this obsession to go back and see her. It is such a BIG feeling to go back that I can hardly stand it. This is where I am right now. And it may be my mommy-feelings, but I cannot connect it to my own mother. If I go to dt and she is warm, soft and seems caring, I will be hooked back in and it could undermine my relationship with ftt. I will keep trying to get dt to love me and care aobuit me whatever way I can. If she is cold, distant and seems uncaring, I will be a sui mess and cry and cry. Either option I know is not good. SO why would I go back for a session with her? It has to be old, childhood re-do feelings/pain. But I cannot connect it to a single thing, except intellectually I can say what it PROBABLY is. But I dont feel it at all.

I notice I have needs for mommy-ing. Or for my h to take care of me that way. And he does, to a certain extent. I think.
Is that what you mean? Maybe I dont understand. I want to understand what you mean.

Oh, I see. This is how I think it goes: I feel like I have a yearning for a mommy-person (like dt), I behave as if I do. I want to go by her office, I want to run into her in town, I have been thinking about her a lot this week. I have a desire to just BE in the room with her.
Is it a coincidence I was doing mommy stuff with ftt this week? Is that a silly question? I had a dissoc moment during that conversation. I am assuming there were feelings there I didnt want to go near, but I dont really know.
The dt feelings are a good example for me. I am sure I have to go over this with ftt this week. And a post (from Sunny) that I printed out to read. It ALL ties in for me with the dt feelings. Im sure.

That is exactly what I have to do. I am reading this part over and over. How do I know I have those unreachable feelings? I have to consider that. I think, one of the many ways is I feel something pushing at me, a sadness, a desire that makes my whole body feel sad in a very general way, not a specific thought, actually. It is an alone feeling that my body feels. If that makes any sense. This is one way. Maybe other ways are more specific and easier for me to identify as mommy-needs.
I have to think more about this.....
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Another way I've seen this put is that if you want to know how to get to Chicago, it makes a big difference whether you're starting from New York or from Los Angeles. [/quote]

But you DO feel the feelings you are feeling about dt. Can you focus on those? You don't have to try to tie it into ANYTHING else. You can just feel what you are feeling and work with THAT. And see where that takes you as you work with ftt. Just start where you are and see where the path leads you.

Yes. I have VERY strong feelings about dt. Its so strong that it is overwhelming me. That is what is in the now. I can focus on those, but I have to say, the thought of seeing where that takes me scares me. And I am back (again) at being afraid I cant do it and I will dissoc in the session. I dont know how to keep myself from getting that "underwater" feeling when I go there. I will do it anyway, and I will try. This is more helpful to me, Tree and FZ, than I can say in words.......

BlueMoon, this is off the topic but I am missing my T so much right now. It must be contagious. I know how strong those feelings are--like a physical compulsion. You see ftt tomorrow, right? I hope she has some helpful advice for you about what to do about your feelings for dt. Maybe, sit with them and do nothing. I don't know. That works for the short-term, but the wanting is still there.

Bluemoon, have you told DT that you will not be returning to therapy with her? I wonder if you need some closure, to close the door on this chapter? If you have not told her yet, maybe you are holding out a possibility that you will return to be with her.

Blue Moon, it may take me a while to answer your questions in anything but the sketchiest way.

Meanwhile, I was wondering: why not ask ftt to help you explore them*? It sounds like something she'd be good at.



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*Oh, I see rainbow8 said pretty much the same thing while I had this sitting in Preview.

My apologies to rainbow8 for taking this thread so far off the original topic, but I'd like to follow up on what Moon said:
I confess I haven't read every single thing you've posted about desk-t but I've noticed you feeling different ways about her at different times. Earlier I thought you were saying she was cold, wouldn't give you what you wanted, and ftt was a welcome change.

I'm not by any means saying you mustn't contradict yourself -- only that neither your earlier feelings nor your current ones seem to tell the whole story by themselves.


Some years ago I had a gf who turned out to bounce back and forth between extremes such as, for example, idealizing me (or someone else) and depreciating me (or them). Although I did figure out months later that she was showing some borderline traits (and proceed to learn more about BPD), at the time I'm speaking of I hadn't yet made any such connection.

A few months into the relationship I found myself thinking a whole lot about how I handled opposites. If, for example, I found myself feeling that I loved her and I hated her, how did I deal with that? At different times I came up with two different images:

Sometimes I pictured myself standing with one foot on each position: "I love her" and "I hate her". Don't ask me how I made this next connection, but for years I'd heard people refer to being "centered" (or not) and wondered what exactly they meant by it. Anyway, I suddenly realized that for me, straddling a contradiction that way was what being "centered" meant.

On at least one other occasion I pictured that same contradiction as the horns of a rusty metal crescent maybe four feet across (a moon of sorts, though a brown one rather than a blue one! ) I "resolved" the contradiction by grasping one horn in each hand and pulling them together.

FWIW, a year or so later I was reading an online journal by someone who identified as having BPD. I wrote the author, asking if she could picture herself holding two opposite feelings at the same time as I'd found myself doing or if she expected to have difficulty with it. She replied that it was not something she could see herself doing.

Because you feel two (or more?) ways toward her and you're looking for a way to resolve them? At different times you could be responding to her as you wish she were, as you're afraid she might be, or as one of the ways that she sometimes actually is. If you were to say this must all be about your mother somehow, that would be a thought you were having; I'm finding that the most useful thing to do with thoughts is just notice them, acknowledge them, let them go, and see what comes next. If you actually found yourself getting memories associated with your mother, that would be a very different sort of experience, one that I'd be inclined to follow up and see where it led me.

I can see where, if you'd previously felt, say, disappointed that dt and/or your mother wasn't giving you what you wanted/needed at the time, you might now be visualizing trying one more time to win dt over just to see if you could. From what else you've said about dt, though, she doesn't sound at all easily won over, so you'd quite likely be setting yourself up for a fall. While that's not necessarily bad, and in some situations could even be exactly what you needed, you seem to be saying that this time you wouldn't expect to take a defeat at all gracefully -- so there had better not be one.

If it is a coincidence, it sure sounds like an uncommonly interesting one!
It sure sounds to me as if ftt is the best one to help you explore this stuff halfway safely.

I've sometimes suspected I might have unreachable feelings somewhere or other but it never seems to have done me any good to strike out directly in quest of them. What I've ended up following in that case has turned out to be just a thought, no more reliable as a guide than any other thought I might have. When I've proceeded by noticing, accepting, and following up the reachable feelings that I obviously was having, that's occasionally brought me around (eventually!) to the "unreachable" ones by some unexpected back way. What that mostly looks like in practice is staying as mindful as I can manage, continuing to put one foot in front of the other, and seeing where I end up.

I'd be very interested in hearing what you eventually find out about this, if you're willing to post about it.

do hugs resolve the unmet needs - my answer would be no

my T is not allowed to hug - the most we do is shake hands lol

you cant fill the past ....

you can fill the present - with friends - with family (maybe lol) with doing things you love to do - or exploring to find things that you love to do.....

the emptyness remains - but maybe it can be turned into an echo that gets softer and softer as you fill your present time wiht those things and people you love

take care P7

p.s., learnign to accept physical touch is somthing that can only enhance life - speaking as one who does not like touch but years for it - a hug - a hand on the shoulder to comfort..... i think these things are things we need to learn how to accept . ( sorry off topic i think)

Fool Zero, it's okay about the thread. What you posted is applicable to me too, since I have BPD. I do find it hard to balance opposing views, contradictions. I can't stand it! I want to know which way is correct, and that's black and white thinking. It's hard to realize that I can be feeling both ways, and that both are correct, or even that there is no one correct way to feel or think. That is, I understand intellectually, but I don't feel it. I like your illustrations about one foot in each position, and being centered.

This thread has taken on a "life of it's own" so I have to "let it go". All the replies and side "excursions" have been interesting. I have to realize that everyone's therapy is different, and there is no right or wrong about hugs or anything else. Our paths are all different. The main thing is that they lead to peace, wellness, and a better quality of life.

phoenix7, I like the way you expressed it. Thank you.

I hate to be touched. That would not work for me.

Fool Zero, what you explained about the extremes and the centering is the core of Marsha Linehan's DBT (therapy).

Thanks, Sannah! I've read a little about DBT (as you might remember from this old thread) and liked what Linehan was saying, but I'd never seen it put exactly that way before. But yes, of course -- dialectical! The stuff that I said about extremes and centering, I came up with about a year before I'd even heard of DBT. Small world, or something.

I think somewhere I know, as Tree says, my inner wisdom, knows that staying with my reachable feelings, as painful and they may be, will bring me to deeper ones I cannot reach. The feelings of missing dt and wanting to see her very badly to see if she will be warm and loving is reachable. Very sad, but reachable, not as scary because I dont have much of a history with her, the fear comes in when I talk about those feelings. They are so deep and hint at the deeper sadness I have. And that is whatmy writing assignment is for this week. To write to dt again. I am getting at something deeper, with HER. But not yet with the real (probable) source of hurt, sadness, disappointment.

Can I tie this into hugs in therapy? It is so related for me. I wanted dt to show me affection, a hug, any gesture. At the same time, if she did, I think I would be so overwhelmed with sadness and pain and longing for her soothe mommy-feelings that Id be embarrassed because Im a grown-up with children. My situation would be embarrassing to me. But I would still want her to hold me, but Id be afraid what the physical closeness would bring up. Id probably deny this by saying I dont want a hug, when actually, I want to be that little girl so badly with her, even just for a moment, that the thought of it coming true would be too much for me.

The more I talk to ftt and realize in a deep way what it is I want from dt, and how unlikely I am to get it from her, the less I want to see her. She isnt able to see what I need. For what might be her own, personal difficulties. In my session today, we briefly speculated about what her difficulties might be. This was so helpful to me.I kept saying I cannot imagine her having problems with boundries, intimacy, her mother issues, or a lack of ability as a therapist. I wanted my ideal vision of her. Ftt explained to me that not all t's are aware of their issues or do anything about them when they treat patients. I naively found that hard to believe. Back to hugs.....a hug...or treating me in the way I needed to be treated ie sitting someplace else in the room other than behind that big desk, would be too much for her. Accepting that is very, very sad for me.

P7...not off topic...but that was kinda funny...sigh...my bad.....Im derailing this thread....

Do hugs really resolve the unmet needs?

My therapist hugs me when I ask her to and she holds me close for as long as I need her to. She often talks to me when she hugs me. It may not resolve unmet needs but it is a start for me in allowing someone to touch me and for me to feel safe asking for it. My therapist is very motherly and that is what I have lacked in my life. If I need to sit next to her during an intense session I can do that also. I have worked with her for many, many years and I feel very close to her.