[rainbow8]

I just wrote a long post but my computer is acting up and lost it! I was busy all day and didn't get a chance to post. I'll summarize instead of writing so much and hope my computer doesn't freeze again.

My t kept me on track with discussing feelings about my Dad, but I still didn't feel them during the session. I talked about being sad and helpless when I'm with him, but I didn't cry when I talked about him. I told her I wished I could cry during my sessions, but she has said in the past that it doesn't mean therapy isn't effective if I don't cry.

So, it was good for me to tell her how I feel, and to get her feedback. I looked at her the whole time, something I never used to do. It feels comfortable to be with her.

We even had time to discuss my being triggered by seeing her with her grandchildren. She thought it was important, which surprised me. She was very pleased that I recognized that it was about me, not about her, and said that showed how much progress I've made in therapy!

This is weird, I know, but I'm sending this now so I don't lose it, and continuing with another response.

[rainbow8]

I told my T that I don't understand why I had such strong feelings when I know I was loved by my parents, and I must have been caressed and hugged like she did to her grandchildren. She agrees with me, though says we will never know for sure, that it could just be that I was more sensitive. I've heard all that before. But she thinks it is more likely that I got all of that affection as a child, but I didn't grow up and become an adult. This fits in with my Mom being sick and dying years ago. I didn't take care of her like I am doing for my Dad. I couldn't stand to see her like that because I wanted her to still take care of me, though I was over 30 years old and married. I didn't really separate from her until she died. I was closer to her than to my Dad. I told my T that again.

It was sort of a new twist of an old theme of not separating from my Mom. My T thinks I am still trying to get that kind of love from her and from others, the love I did get from my Mom. It seems to fit more than feeling like my parents didn't love me because I know how much they did.

[rainbow8]

Sorry; computer froze again.
I also asked my T to clarify about phone calls. I told her how I've been disappointed lately, but I realized that she and I are "on the same side" and that she is doing what she thinks is best for me. She told me again how she doesn't like being manipulated, and I said I didn't understand what she meant. She said: when you want X, but ask for Y. I give you Y, and you are upset. Sunrise, you get an A for being right about that!

I still don't see how that's manipulative. I always want too much from phone calls, but she calls it manipulative and I don't. Last time I told her to tell me she cares about me, and she did. So that she didn't mind because I was direct. But I forgot to ask her when I'm not. I know I must always do it, but somehow I don't know that I do. She doesn't like long phone calls, but she says I can always call. I know I never want to hang up, but I can't help it.

So, all in all, it was a good adult type session. That's what she is best at. I felt connected and she gave me some useful advice. She was the way she is. I have to accept that. I know my feeling now is like it used to be, but I have to relate it to me. The feeling is that I want more, but I know I don't want it from her. I didn't even think about asking for a hug. Yet she gave me her undivided attention, as usual. It's just that I get that feeling of wishing I could still get her attention every week. I've got to live with that feeling. It usually goes away. When I used to feel like this, in most of my therapy, it was much worse and I usually called her right away to say I missed her. But now I can figure some of it out myself, or maybe here in the forum.

[darkrunner]

I'm glad you felt connected and that you had a good session.

I'm kind of confused though, about her labeling your actions as 'manipulative'. I don't think having needs, even ones that cannot be met, is manipulative. I also don't think that asking for something (x), even if it's different than what you really want (Y), is manipulative either.
IDK, to me manipulative has a very negative connotation, and involves serious intent and sneaky-ness.
Your actions seem rather innocent.

I am not being critical of your T - she really sounds great, Rainbow.
And it sounds like maybe you are learning to accept her for what she can offer you.

[rainbow8]

Thanks, ktgirl. Yeah, I don't understand either. Maybe it's HER stuff, because she's told me that more than once, that she doesn't like my playing games and manipulating her. I can't seem to make her understand my point that I don't know I'm doing it. She may have once said that she knows I can't help it, or I don't do it consciously, but she didn't say that yesterday. Can I have other input on this?

Other than that, I am glad I saw my T. I just wish she hadn't brought up this "manipulating business" again. If I call her about it, I want to be very clear what to say, or she will think I'm doing it again. Any suggestions? Thanks. I cannot pay another $100 just to discuss this, so I have to be direct on the phone.

[deliquesce]

first up, sucky about the computer freezing!!! i'm glad you got through the whole thing, though.

re: manipulativeness. i'm not sure i would use that word in particular (it implies that you have a degree of social mastery, and from what you say it is very unintentional - more a deficit, if you will). BUT, what you *are* doing is not communicating directly. and that IS something you can learn, and something you can put to good use .

e.g., when you told your T to tell you she cared, she did. you asked for what you wanted, she responded, you felt good.

it's not a matter of wanting "too much". it's a matter of not letting your T know what it is you actually want! that's not really fair, is it? to set her up to disappoint you, because you wouldn't tell her directly what you needed at that moment?

if you really don't realise you're doing it when you do call, you certainly recognise it when you have that disappointed feeling, right? it means your expectations of the call weren't being met.

does this happen immediately (i.e., as you speak to T)? or does the disappointment only set in once you've hung up? if it happens immediately, then i would encourage you to at least tell T that you're feeling disappointed. maybe she can help you word your needs/wants for that call more directly. if it only happens after you've hung up, then i'd encourage you to reflect on what you said (x) and what you wanted (y) and i'm fairly certain you'll find a pattern emerging, of sorts. my guess is that you want to connect with T, and have her respond in a way that you feel is caring.

Rainbow, so glad it was a good session!

I've also been having troubles with my computer freezing up on this site, and I've been losing posts - so frustrating! I wonder if the site has a bug?

So, it was good for me to tell her how I feel, and to get her feedback. I looked at her the whole time, something I never used to do. It feels comfortable to be with her.

Yay, that's terrific!

We even had time to discuss my being triggered by seeing her with her grandchildren. She thought it was important, which surprised me. She was very pleased that I recognized that it was about me, not about her, and said that showed how much progress I've made in therapy!

That is so great!!!

It was sort of a new twist of an old theme of not separating from my Mom. My T thinks I am still trying to get that kind of love from her and from others, the love I did get from my Mom. It seems to fit more than feeling like my parents didn't love me because I know how much they did.

That is very interesting, Rainbow. It just shows how each one of us is so different, we each have a different reason for feeling the way we do. I'm so glad that this explanation feels more right for you.

She told me again how she doesn't like being manipulated, and I said I didn't understand what she meant. She said: when you want X, but ask for Y. I give you Y, and you are upset.

I think deli is right - the word 'manipulative' has such a negative context. I read an article on object relations theory, and it was all about how the therapist must identify the patient's manipulations - I'm thinking, what manipulations? I don't manipulate people! But then I came to realize that I do the same as the example given by your T - I won't tell someone what I truly need but will ask for something else, hoping they figure out what it is that I really want from them. So when they give me what I asked for, I'm still disappointed! And that goes for T, too - there have been times when I have stopped myself from asking T what I want and need, and T will encourage me to keep talking and tell her what exactly it is I want. I'm a work in progress, definitely! But it's good to be aware of that, and to think that your needs are important enough to directly ask for them - like you said about asking T to tell you that she cares about you, and she did - it feels so good when we do ask, and then get those needs met!

[rainbow8]

Thanks, deli. Yeah, my T uses harsh words a lot. I think she has a different dictionary than others, LOL. She's called my a "voyeur" because of my "watching" her, she says "borderlines", and "my 11:30 is here." To her credit, now she says she's in between appointments or something like that instead of the latter.

my guess is that you want to connect with T, and have her respond in a way that you feel is caring.

I think that's it, no matter what my "presenting reason" may be. But why doesn't she know that by now? It reminds me of when she wanted to hang up because I said I didn't want to talk. I meant that I couldn't talk, and I thought I said "I can't tell you" which she thought I meant I didn't want to. It's just a fact that she doesn't have much patience on the phone so I've got to be very direct.

So, when I call, I usually just want her to tell me she cares, and that is why I felt satisfied when I asked her during the last phone call. It didn't change a think about my Dad or my daughter. But she asked if I wanted an appointment; that's her way of showing caring on the phone.

I'm still a little confused. I've never actually called and said "I'm calling just because I want to know you care about me." That's hard to do! But the reason I say is always valid--it's because I'm hurting about something. She did tell me yesterday that it was all right to ask her to tell me she cares. It seems like putting words into her mouth, though. I want people to care about me, especially my T, without me having to ask them. I know I'm repeating myself here. Sorry. I'm close to something here, but not sure what. If I disregard the word "manipulate", you're right I am disappointed because I want something else, not more. Just something ELSE. I realize it at the end of the conversation and that's why I try to tell her "wait' and try to prolong it. She doesn't like that. She doesn't have time for that.

I have to try this, but it makes me feel very vulnerable. When I call, I want to know she's there and cares about me, especially since sessions are few and far between, except for now. She has also told me I can call to say "I miss you." So why don't I DO that?

I can understand why she calls is manipulative. If you want one thing, but ask for another, hoping she'll figure out what you really want, that's manipulative. Particularly if you get upset that she didn't figure it out. You have to be direct and ask for what you need from people. Otherwise it really is playing games.

Sounds like you had a great session. Keep up the good work.

[rainbow8]

Thanks, dreamseeker. It may be the site? I told my H we need a new computer because it's happened before. Hmmm.

Someone on another site told me you crave what you didn't get, not what you did get, but I don't think that's always true. My first T, years ago, told me that my Mom made it too good for me to go out into the world (I had forgotten about this til now!), so it appears that she agreed with my current T. She also thought something was wrong with attachment, but maybe because of being in an incubator. In any case, I've struggled so long with wondering how my parents didn't love me, and trying to accept that, while in my heart and in my memories that's simple not true! I'm not in denial; it's just not my history. I'm messed up plenty; I don't want to appear better than those whose past is different, but that's the truth for me.

My T made a big deal about my parents driving me to a class at night, once a week. It was about an hour away, and they waited for me in the car. The class was maybe 2 hrs. or more. She said they shouldn't have done that. I'm not sure why my H didn't drive me, but my parents were available so they did. I was afraid to drive so far alone at night. My mother was "there" too much for me, made it hard for me to separate from her. She always wanted to hear the "details" about everything going on in my life. My Dad never did.

I am understanding more about what my T means even though her word choice is bad. I learn so much from posting here. to everyone!!
It's scary to ask for what we need. I'm afraid my T won't give it to me, but she does when I'm direct. Usually. It's not always clear to me what I'm doing on the phone because I'm nervous. If I'm just calling to get comfort 1 sentence from her will do it, I think, and then she won't think I'm manipulating her, and I won't be disappointed. Can it really be so simple? It's taken 6 years to realize this? Wow! I mean, I sort of knew it, but didn't understand. I was also afraid to bring it up again and again with her.

[TayQuincy]

My guess is she feels manipulated when you behave in a certain way with an "agenda" that is different than what you are saying. When you call her because you really just want to hear her voice or connect, but instead find some issue that you need to talk about to have a "valid" reason to call her, that is manipulation. You are manipulating her to get a specific response. You have an exact response in mind when you call her and she doesn't know what it is, so often responds in a way that disappoints you. Then you get upset because you didn't get what you really wanted from her.

An example is your need to already call her about this when you just saw her yesterday. Is that really the reason you want to call her? Or do you feel disconnected and worried that you won't be seeing her for another four months or when you are able to afford a session again? If you call her, are you going to expect a specific response from her or else be disappointed? It seems you often feel disappointed in what you get, instead of being more flexible and accepting that because she is not a mind reader, she may not know what you really expect. Even so, do you expect too much? I think it sounds like you try to behave in a way to influence her to behave in a certain way, which is manipulation. It might not be conscious or devious on your part, but it could still be manipulation and make her feel manipulated.

What if she hadn't brought up the manipulation during your session? Would you be thinking about something else she said in session that would warrant a phone call? It seems you often feel a need to call after a session, or after seeing her in real life, perhaps because you are feeling unsettled and that you missed something, or didn't get something that you need.

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I certainly don't mean it to. I have done this with my t too, so I am speaking from experience.

[rainbow8]

I love "you guys." I think you should all be Ts! I mean that sincerely.
farmergirl: Thanks for your viewpoint. It helps me to know that my T is not being mean, and that she's not the only one who would call my behavior manipulative.

Tay: I'm overwhelmed that you know and remember the facts I've posted in other threads. That means so much to me. What you say isn't harsh at all, and you've got it exactly right, too. It's scary how on target you are.

An example is your need to already call her about this when you just saw her yesterday. Is that really the reason you want to call her? Or do you feel disconnected and worried that you won't be seeing her for another four months or when you are able to afford a session again? If you call her, are you going to expect a specific response from her or else be disappointed?

I could quote your whole post; it's so accurate! Yes, I am always looking for a reason to call her after a session or after seeing her. Even when I saw her weekly. Calling her to clarify about manipulation is more manipulation. I get it! I always have trouble separating from her. I just have to remember that she's always with me even if it's not physically.

What if she hadn't brought up the manipulation during your session? Would you be thinking about something else she said in session that would warrant a phone call? It seems you often feel a need to call after a session, or after seeing her in real life, perhaps because you are feeling unsettled and that you missed something, or didn't get something that you need

.

Right again. It's because I want her to be with me always, but I know it's not really her I want. It's just the BPD emptiness that she can't fill no matter what she says or does. I'm still a work in progress, but I'm getting much, much better. I can conjure up the image of my T being there for me, all the nice things she's said and done for me, at any time. I have her voice, her picture, and the note she wrote at my last session. I've got to hold onto that when I don't see her. She wants me to be okay if she dies before I do. She told me that once.

[Brightheart]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I can understand why she calls is manipulative. If you want one thing, but ask for another, hoping she'll figure out what you really want, that's manipulative. Particularly if you get upset that she didn't figure it out. You have to be direct and ask for what you need from people. Otherwise it really is playing games.

Everyone is different and takes a different approach in their relationships. I don't see it as playing games unless you are doing it with intent to annoy. I think the use of the word "manipulative" on the part of the therapist probably speaks to her annoyance with others not being direct. So probably some of her stuff in this as well...

Perhaps look at the reasons why it is so difficult to ask for what you need. What are you fearing?

[rainbow8]

Thanks, Brightheart. I'm afraid she won't give me what I want because of limits and boundaries. I was actually surprised when I asked her to tell me she cared about me and she said "I care about you whether you have a few sessions or a lot of sessions." Why didn't she think that was manipulation too? I told her what to tell me. That's pushy, to me. I've never been pushy.

[BlueMoon6]

I agree with whats been said. Manipulative is so commonly used for bpd that its almost as if it is thrown in there because it is expected that is what we will do(not that t expecvts this from you!). I think is a matter of patience with you becoming aware of what you need when you need it. Or a fear of saying what you need. Being afraid to ask for the attention and the refelx being you ask for x when you want attention/caring/love (y) from her. Or a fear of being seen as too needy, inappropritate etc. Its great that she doesnt mind and I miss you kind of phone call. She cares and is OK with your directness. Maybe the phone nervousness is more fear of not getting what exactly you are calling about, fear because it isnt clear to you what exactly you are asking for and fear that you wont be able to figure out how to get it. Does that make any sense?

Can I ask you...when was this class? Recently? Or a long time ago?

Anyway, I think it sounds like you had a very productive, connected session, Rainbow...Im SO glad!

[deliquesce]

rainbow - re: your parents. i believe your parents were good and loving people who really, really, really wanted the best for you. driving for an hour, sitting in the car for 2hrs, and then driving you back home (even though you were already married?) is a LOT of dedication and love!!!! (i am trusting you when you say this was a good thing for you - something you appreciated. other parents could do the same actions but because they didnt trust where you were going, for example).

i think the thing is - you dont need to have been neglected or abused or whatever to be messed up (i say "messed up" lightly, ok? i call myself crazy as batshit, so there's not judgement here ). if the example you gave about your parents driving you to class is a prototypical example of how they interacted with you (always doing things for you etc), then of course it would be hard to 'grow up' and be independent - to not always need that constant "i care about you" feeling. i dont know how old you are now, or how old you were when your mother passed away, but just think that if that's what you've been used to for the majority of your life, then wouldn't it be normal to keep craving that? it was a good thing afterall, right?

so now you're faced with this painful realisation that not everyone can be there like your mother was for you. but you keep trying to recreate it because it was so wonderful. but the problem with this is that it's *you* now who is holding yourself back, yknow? (edit: i didnt finish this thought, ha. when i say you are holding yourself back, i'm saying that in trying to recreate that mother figure with your therapist, you're not allowing yourself to grow up and become more independent. you need to start testing things out more... extending the amount of time you dont contact T, and then when you go back - realising she still cares, she didnt stop caring just because she wasn't there the whole time, being a witness to your life. maybe if you used to see her every week, then contacting her every 2 weeks just to say "i need to make sure your caring is still constant" is a good place to start. and then you could extend it out to to 3 weeks, a month, 6 weeks etc. that's how other kids learn how to move away - ok this is where the school kid bit came in, so i'm gonna stop this long edit!!).

in australia, especially if you go to a local school, it's normal to walk yourself home starting from when you're about 6 or 7 yrs old (so at least you learnt that no adult supervision was possible for maybe 20mins each day). i'm guessing you never really had that sort of independence fostered in you?

and the other thing is - you've never had to ask to be cared about. you see that as pushy whereas other ppl see that as direct.

i'm just hazarding guesses here about the connections, and i'm going to stop in case i'm way off base.

[rainbow8]

Deli, you're not way off base. I've got to "start my day" sigh. Wish I could stay on PC and post all day long. It's like a marathon therapy session for me though I don't feel like I deserve the attention. Yes, my Mom overprotected me. More later.

[sunrise]

Rainbow, I think your T wants therapy to be effective for you, and it is hampered by your indirect behavior--your asking for X when you want Y and then getting upset when she gives you what you asked for. She's not a mind reader and perhaps after 6 years of having you be indirect like that, she is having some countertransference (just fed up with it). You wondered after 6 years why doesn't your T know that you need caring on the phone? Maybe your T is thinking, why after 6 years hasn't Rainbow learned to be straight with me and tell me why she is calling? I think there's some frustration going both ways here. Especially since you see her so rarely, it can waste time to get hung up because of communication issues like this. Since you know that being indirect results in your not getting your needs met and being frustrated and upset and your T feeling "manipulated", why not just try being direct? The possible rejection might be balanced by the known positives.

Rainbow, it is interesting to me that you were in therapy for 6 years with your T and did not learn about direct communication before. My T has told me that some of the early work he does in therapy with most clients is getting them to learn to be direct so that they can work together effectively. That usually includes establishing a relationship of trust so that the clients are not scared to be direct.

Rainbow, I don't call my T often, as the calls go to his voicemail and he doesn't call back often, but when I have been able to speak to him on the phone, I did have a reason (such as rescheduling) but I also really liked connecting with him on the phone. His voice triggers feelings of connection in me, and he doesn't have to say a single careing word. I can get connection by his saying, "OK, I have a space open at 3 pm on Tuesday, let's do that." I'm just wondering if you can derive connection from a call to T by hearing her voice, or the mere act of her returning your call? Your T is very responsive and calls back very quickly (lucky!), so there is some caring there, I believe. Just this last weekend, you called her and left a message, and she called back right away! To take time from her personal time on the weekend and immediately call back indicates A LOT of caring to me. (My T does not do phone calls or emails on weekends because he does not work on weekends, and that is work.) Anyway, I'm just wondering if you can see and accept her caring without her having every time to do exactly the demonstration of caring that is your most preferred (consoling words, expressions of empathy, directly saying "I care about you", etc.)? Maybe she can do your things some calls and her own things on other calls...

When I call, I want to know she's there and cares about me, especially since sessions are few and far between, except for now. She has also told me I can call to say "I miss you."

That is very, very sweet, and very caring.

She wants me to be okay if she dies before I do. She told me that once.

Wow.

I was actually surprised when I asked her to tell me she cared about me and she said "I care about you whether you have a few sessions or a lot of sessions." Why didn't she think that was manipulation too? I told her what to tell me. That's pushy, to me.

Rainbow, that reminds me of couples sessions I had and sometimes T would ask one of us, "what do you need right now from your husband (or wife)." And then (let's say it was me), I would say to T, "I need him to say X." And T would say, "tell him that," and if I couldn't, he would say, "repeat after me" and then he would say the words a few at time and I would repeat them while looking at H. It was so hard, just painstaking. He did the same with my H. At some point, it got so T could just say, "tell H what you need from him at this moment," and I could do it. So, rainbow, it may seem pushy to have to tell your T exactly what you need, but sometimes it's effective when you only have 50 minutes in session. And it's definitely not manipulative to be direct--why would you think that would be manipulative? Without being direct, in our couples sessions, we would have had no idea what the other person needed and what the issues were. Why dance around the fire?--let's just plunge in and do this.

My t kept me on track with discussing feelings about my Dad, but I still didn't feel them during the session. I talked about being sad and helpless when I'm with him, but I didn't cry when I talked about him. I told her I wished I could cry during my sessions

Rainbow, is there a time outside of therapy when you let yourself feel these feelings and be sad? I hope you have a time when you are able to do this.

It was sort of a new twist of an old theme of not separating from my Mom. My T thinks I am still trying to get that kind of love from her and from others, the love I did get from my Mom.... This fits in with my Mom being sick and dying years ago. I didn't take care of her like I am doing for my Dad. I couldn't stand to see her like that because I wanted her to still take care of me.... I didn't really separate from her until she died.

That's really interesting, rainbow. Do you think your strong desire for this kind of love only started after your mother's death? I think it makes sense that a lot of this might come from not having fully separated from your mother, despite her now being gone. I can also see why your father's ill health would intensify the feelings, because it is taking you back to when your mom died. Maybe taking care of your father now can help you heal some of what happened in the past when your mother was ill. Perhaps you feel some guilt over not taking care of your mother when she was dying, and now you have a chance to "do it again" with your other parent. It sounds like it might be an opportunity for healing.

[TayQuincy]

I can conjure up the image of my T being there for me, all the nice things she's said and done for me, at any time. I have her voice, her picture, and the note she wrote at my last session. I've got to hold onto that when I don't see her.

Yes! She is there with you and for you even when you don't see her.

I'm overwhelmed that you know and remember the facts I've posted in other threads.

Rainbow, you are very articulate when you write and communicate honestly and thoroughly about your relationship with T. I can relate to your situation with T, so your posts tend to stand out in my mind. I have even told my t that I felt I was manipulating to get what I need from her and others. Often I have been unaware that I had another agenda when I called her. I guess I feared that she would think it silly that I wanted to feel connected and maybe even push me away. But if I had a more valid reason for the call, I would feel better and I would not risk being rejected for having needs. My T once told me it's okay to just say I'm feeling disconnected and want to talk a minute to reconnect. I can also call and listen to her voice on her message.

Your T allows you to make an appointment any time you need to, so does just knowing that fact help you in any way? I like knowing that I can call my t anytime I need her, so I keep that in mind and take comfort it that. She is there if I need her, so I can relax and not need her as much.

[rainbow8]

Deli:

i'm saying that in trying to recreate that mother figure with your therapist, you're not allowing yourself to grow up and become more independent. you need to start testing things out more... extending the amount of time you dont contact T, and then when you go back - realising she still cares, she didnt stop caring just because she wasn't there the whole time, being a witness to your life. maybe if you used to see her every week, then contacting her every 2 weeks just to say "i need to make sure your caring is still constant" is a good place to start. and then you could extend it out to to 3 weeks, a month, 6 weeks etc.

The bolded part struck me as so relevant, so much what I miss and want. My H asks why I come home and tell him little things that happened at work. I never stop talking. I think it's because I want someone to be A WITNESS TO MY LIFE. Once in therapy I had so much to discuss so I started right out. But, I also had a list of happenings, daily life stuff I had wanted to tell her. I called it my report. I was so angry when I left. I cried because I hadn't been able to fit in my "report." I was also angry because my T didn't ask me. Of course she wouldn't. Only my Mom asked me for all of the details, even after marriage. She would ask about her grandchild: "what's new that ____ is doing today?" I mean when she was 1 to 2 years old. I miss having someone want to hear my "report", all the details of my life.

I didn't tell my Mom feelings, though. That part was missing. So, in therapy it was always easy to give my report--I wanted to do that, but hard to express feelings. Still is.

I did go away to college and become independent, though I had a boyfriend who played the role of taking care of me then. When I got married, I still had my Mom taking care of me somewhat. When she died, I got depressed and started therapy. This was about 25 years ago. It seems like a pattern to try to find Ts to depend on since then. One goal has always been for me to become independent and not rely on Ts.

I've got to go somewhere now; will continue soon.

[TayQuincy]

just because she wasn't there the whole time, being a witness to your life.

Wow Deli, that is exactly what I struggle with too. I lost my mother when I was young and after that I had no one to report the details of my life, no one cared about them! I, like Rainbow, want that from my therapist.

Rainbow, I am exactly like you are with your H, I come home and have to talk and talk and report the details of my day. But he just listens without much response and half the time I'd swear he tunes me out. I notice that he doesn't have this need and rarely tells me anything unless it's something important. My husband is truly a witness to my life, but for some reason it is not the same. It's that wanting to know thing. He doesn't really want to know all the details like a mother would. I drive my kids batty because I always want to know everything that goes on in their lives.

I have a really good friend who fills that need now too. We both report the details of our lives to each other and that includes feelings. I want to hear about even the trivial things that happen in her life, I'm interested. So I believe we can develop close friendships that replace the need for a mother figure in our lives. THe difference is that friendships are reciprocal relationships whereas the therapeutic relationship is all about the patient.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

...... you dont need to have been neglected or abused or whatever to be messed up (i say "messed up" lightly, ok? i call myself crazy as batshit, so there's not judgement here ).

Deli, I love you

you did say something curious to me >>> "just because she wasn't there being a witness to your whole life" - my mother called that Benign Neglect, and she cultivated it deliberately and thought it was a good thing.

By the time I was in my 40s I was practicing this with my younger siblings, and then with their children, and I realizze now that they have simply experienced it as neglect.

[rainbow8]

Blue: the class my parents drove me to was quite a few years ago. I was in my late 20's.

I think the phone nervousness is because I know it's rarely enough, and I will have to hang up before I want to. I've learned from this thread, and from asking my T again recently to clarify about the calls. Before I call her again, I will write down what I want from the call. I just hope that when I call with something very distressing, she will know to say "I'm sorry" without my having to ask. I don't remember her saying that when I told her about my father. I remember her saying "that's major" and then my saying I don't know if I should see her or not. Maybe she did say "I'm sorry to hear that", or maybe she didn't. I have a problem of dwelling on the exact words she says to me, which causes me pain. Her intent is always to help me, so it would be better not to focus on her word choice as much as I do.

sunrise: My T has talked about being direct before; it's just hard for me.
I take her phone availability for granted. She calls back on week-ends the same as during the week. She rarely takes vacations. But she doesn't do emails! If she did, I'd be disappointed, so it's probably better that she doesn't. I'd write pages, and get back 1 line.

I have to try to feel comforted just by her calling back and hearing her voice. My expectations are too high regarding phone calls, though I should know by now. If I'm direct, I won't be disappointed. Sounds so easy, LOL.

Do you think your strong desire for this kind of love only started after your mother's death?

I wish life would be so simple, but "no". I always had fantasies about people who weren't available, but who loved me unconditionally, and became idols to me. I did this as a child and never have stopped doing it, ending with doing it about my Ts. So, my T isn't completely correct. Something was missing before my Mom died. Again, it's a case of wanting more, wanting the fantasies instead of real life. Having unfilled needs from infancy. I'll never know, so it's probably time to stop trying to figure it out.

Tay: I do have a couple of friends with whom I can relate the details to, and discuss feelings, but it's still not the same as a mother.

You said you were unaware that you had another agenda when you call your T. Me, too. I understand it better now. Thank you! This thread has helped me so much. Thanks to everyone.

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I did go away to college and become independent, though I had a boyfriend who played the role of taking care of me then.

yeah, i was referring more to an emotional sort of independence, i think? being able to look after yourself (emotionally) - feel ok with your life just being yours (to an extent however - of course we all love to share ).

for me, PC is kind of the place where i go through everything in minute detail. my posts after my sessions are always so long "he said, she said, his face did this --> etc". and half the time i dont even end up with a question, i just wanted to tell someone. but that's only on PC, and only to do with my therapy sessions. i wonder why, but it *is* important to me. maybe because i'm doing the emotional growing up in therapy, and i need ppl to just be supportive of that. i dont know.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

you did say something curious to me >>> "just because she wasn't there being a witness to your whole life" - my mother called that Benign Neglect, and she cultivated it deliberately and thought it was a good thing.

By the time I was in my 40s I was practicing this with my younger siblings, and then with their children, and I realizze now that they have simply experienced it as neglect.

poppet, i want to respond but i'm not sure what (if?) you're asking. i think it is super super super important to give ppl attention, especially kids, and listen to their stories (even if it is about seeing an ant on the way home from school). but i think as ppl grow up, it's required less and less - not ever to the point of being 'invisible' - but maybe not to the point of needing to share the absolute mundane things (unless there is a point to sharing it!! even an ant can be interesting if it meant something to that person. by mundane i kind of mean that sort of 'cataloguing' we do e.g., i woke up and had toast, i had a shower, i left for work, the train came on time etc).

as much as my dad has hurt me, i love him a thousand times more than mum, because he listens to my 'stuff' and responds. mum is likely to either tune out, or make me feel stupid for sharing in the first place (e.g., my computer crashed the other day. dad talked to me about pros/cons of fixing it vs buying a new computer. mum's only response was "why are you telling me?"). that sort of not caring really hurts.

[BlueMoon6]

Rainbow and all- I wanted to let you know Im reading along here. It is a very interesting and heavy thread. There is so much I want to say, but my head is spinning tonight.
Rainbow- will you settle for a hug from me? I'll post and reply later...