[rainbow8]

I am thinking about Melba's post about hugs and T asking if hugs would resolve the unmet needs? I have those same needs but in many years of therapy with Ts of different orientations, no one thought that was the answer to my unmet needs. Or, at least not hugs by THEM. They wanted me to get closer to people IRL.

I always had fantasies of running around the room, crying, and having to be stopped by my T, which meant she would then hold me. Or of falling apart in therapy so I could be comforted and held. I discussed those feelings with my Ts, but no one suggested that they hold me or even hug me. They said they could comfort me with words. At least one T said that. The others didn't use hugs in their therapy, and my most recent T said that a hug would not be good for me, though she hugged me at our final regular session.

So, can hugs from a T make up for unmet needs from our past? Would crying with my T with her hugging me/holding me, make it all better? I'm not being sarcastic, though it may sound like it. It doesn't seem plausible to me, but maybe that has worked for some of you, and if so, I'm interested in how and why.

[deliquesce]

this is a great question, rainbow!!

i've never received hugs in therapy. so maybe i'm not qualified to comment. but for what it's worth (can't get this deli to shut up )...

i don't think hugs can resolve unmet needs. i think sometimes they can help as an in-the-moment thing - have short term effects of feeling better, and also the long term effect of possibly feeling closer to your therapist. all of these might then contribute to creating an atmosphere in which you might feel safer (perhaps?) to work more deeply on painful issues, or whatever.

i remember once my old-T told me he wished he could give me a hug. that in itself was more than enough to make me feel calm and safe and 'held' (i try to ignore the fact that he then went on to lecture me about professional boundaries etc...).

i think that for some clients it could actually interfere with therapy, however. there have been times when i have wanted a hug from pdoc (i'm too much of a wuss to say it, though). but i think that maybe if i did get it, would it prevent me from seeking it elsewhere? would it then contribute to me idolising him as the perfect caregiver/nurturer and interfere with my motivation to find these things in the "real" world? i think the answer for me is 'no' (i want hugs from someone not in a business suit!), but i think that some ppl could almost become so attached to the therapist, that the actual therapy bit fell to the wayside. kind of like the appointments would just be about maintaining that ideal relationship, rather than working on making 'real life' change.

[Melbadaze]

I think if touch was one of our unmet needs then yes I think being held by someone you have grown to trust can be the jumping board for healing that particular area. I think for one to reach an intimate understanding of their own need for touch then yes it will help, but if one is still split of from that particular need then no. I know for myself as that need begins to re awaken I am ready for it and feel it will heal a lot. Having to re experience the pain of that unmet need is deep deep work. So I dont think sarcasm is intended if meant at all, but I think we are all at different stages of our journey, we all have different needs and when we're ready we will intuitively know what is right for us. I am pleased to be in a place where that part of myself is finally alive again. Its a cold dark place when I was in denial of it.

[Melbadaze]

Deli, Your post just shows me where your at in your journey rather then a factual take on anyone elses therapy. I get hugs from my husband, but its that early need that needs healing. Have you not seen how those romainian babys suffered from lack of touch? well I am an abandoned baby that suffered from lack of touch, and survived by turning in on myself and denying touch really matters. I;m not sure what you going on about in the rest of your post re real change?? I think if you have followed my posts you will indeed see that real work my own therapy consists of and will have read the real caring my therapist has displayed, who wouldnt want a hug from someone as kind and caring as that? I know between the tyep of posts that are here in this thread and the kind of person my T is, I know which choice I'd make for further healing, take the hug and be thankful those defence tactics posted in this thread aren't mine any longer.

I don't think hugs from a therapist can make up for the past. It may be a short-term fix, but the reality is, we have to be able to do this for ourselves. That is the long-term fix. I think we can get too dependent on our relationships with our therapists and expect them to fix everything. But they can't. And they shouldn't. We have to be able to find comfort in our own minds, our own lives. I have never felt like therapy was about maintaining my relationship with my therapist. I guess that is why I'm not bothered by cancellations, no hugs, etc. We have close relationship, but it is a professional relationship, not a "real-life" relationship. My "real" relationships are with my husband, my children, my co-workers, my family, my friends. Those people are the people I have to learn to accept support from. Those are the relationships we work on in therapy. After all, my relationship with my therapist is only temporary. All those other people will be with me for a lifetime.

[rainbow8]

Melba, I was not trying to imply that hugs in therapy weren't good, and that they aren't going to be good for you. I wonder if they would have helped me; that's why I'm asking. I don't want to start any controversy with my question. That's the opposite of what I want! I'm just interested in a discussion, and I realize that there is no one right answer here. Everyone has a different opinion, and everyone's therapy is different.I sure like giving and getting hugs here!

[Melbadaze]

What I find astonishing is something that I've always felt conflicted about is the use of the hugs and I care about your smilies on this board, and when the REAL thing is being worked towards, suddenly its irrelavent? Perhaps that needs looking at? I've never been an overboard smilie hug user, because its not real, its at times used in a neurotic cover up for the denied real needs to be hugged. Anyone can post I love you, or heres a hug, but can they really do it? and do it withsome that they care about and at the same time fear rejection? tell me how thats not moving forward? I knew my feelings about the pseudo hug smilies on this board weren't some misguilded feeling. Lets do away with the pseudo hugs and get down to the real thing???

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i think that for some clients it could actually interfere with therapy, however. there have been times when i have wanted a hug from pdoc (i'm too much of a wuss to say it, though). but i think that maybe if i did get it, would it prevent me from seeking it elsewhere?

For me, I think it's kind of been the opposite. I don't think that physical contact with T has resolved my unmet needs...but I do think that it's comforting, and feeling how comforting it is with him has actually led me to seek it out in real life. It honestly never would have occurred to me before to ask H to sit with me quietly and hold my hand for a little while, or to go to him and let myself really feel comforted by a hug. I learned that in T.

Could I have learned that without the physical contact with T? Maybe. Probably. But it ended up being such an emotional, deep, visceral kind of lesson...not a cognitive one (if that makes any sense). I seem to learn things best that way when it comes to therapy.

[deliquesce]

yes, (((Tree))). the thing with therapy is that certain techniques work well for some clients, not all. i guess that's why i said 'some' - i wasn't intending that my post reflect anyone else's choices to receive/refuse hugs in therapy.

melba - as a rule, i don't follow your threads on PC so i have no idea how your therapy works. however i am glad you feel you are making progress. given that we have different backgrounds and issues to address in therapy (i am not a romanian orphan ) i am surprised to learn that you understand where my journey in therapy is leading and at what stage i'm currently at on the basis of one post. i'm quite content to remain in the dark, however, and seek guidance instead from those less peripherally involved in my healing .

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I have never felt like therapy was about maintaining my relationship with my therapist. I guess that is why I'm not bothered by cancellations, no hugs, etc. We have close relationship, but it is a professional relationship, not a "real-life" relationship. My "real" relationships are with my husband, my children, my co-workers, my family, my friends. Those people are the people I have to learn to accept support from. Those are the relationships we work on in therapy. After all, my relationship with my therapist is only temporary. All those other people will be with me for a lifetime.

Farmergirl you've touched on something here - this is why, eventually, a time can come when termination is OK.
Still... the therapeutic relationship may not be "real-life", but I submit that it is very real. During the process, if the healing lies in regression and restructuring of neural connections (pardon my inadequate phrasing), it's not surprising (to me anyway) that benign touch could have a role, no less than the therapist's expressions of validation, understanding, and UPR... just my $0.02

and as for virtual hugs and smiles and hearts, here at PC - I see these as symbols of deep understanding and compassion, given by those who have suffered similarly, and they are precious to me. I would never question their validity or worth. They've been paid for in blood, so to speak.
so there

Originally Posted by deliquesce

yes, (((Tree))). the thing with therapy is that certain techniques work well for some clients, not all. i guess that's why i said 'some' - i wasn't intending that my post reflect anyone else's choices to receive/refuse hugs in therapy.

Yes, I totally get that. Yesterday my T and I were talking about positive affirmations...and I told him that they feel so fake to me...but that the little messages on my TEA BAGS lately have really spoken to me And he said that it really is an individual thing...it has to be the *right* affirmation for each individual, something that really speaks to THEM, or it's kind of pointless.

Kind of like hugs, I'm guessing

[BlueMoon6]

Rainbow! This is a great thread. I skimmed the posts, then I will to re-read after I post because I have such a strong reaction to this topic I dont want to be "influenced" by other posts.
OK- I am a very huggy, I love you type of person. I have always been that way. I have gone over this kind of thing in therapy, even sexulaizing touch that isnt meant to be so, but I am a physical type of person. With my h, if we are not physical (and I dont mean sex necessarily) I feel very disconnected and alone. It is my make-up and possibly the way I was wired from birth. I need his touch and my chilldren are the same. I have called them "skin creatures" because they need so much skin contact. As ofr early needs, Im not terribly sure how my early needs were/werent met (except for the csa) for touch. Thats probably another thread/longer story.

For me, hugging is very healing. I dont think it will cure anything, but I think, for me, a healing kind of touch makes me feel cared about, loved and connected. I dont jump into hugging (havent hugged ftt, never got even near enough to dt). I have always felt that my body, how it reacts, and what I feel in it at any particular moment is very closely connected to my mind. I dont separate my mind and body so much. My mind, my emotional state very VERY much IS my body. And my emotional state is almost always expressed in my body. Touch is SO important to me. And my healing. It soothes and calms my mind. No, it doesnt reslove unmet needs....but when I am physically close (I have done therapy in the past where there was a lot of touch) it IS easier for me to go to places with a relaxed mind.

OMG!!!!!! I hit 1010 posts!!!!!!! I am POOBAH! OMG!

[TayQuincy]

I have never felt like therapy was about maintaining my relationship with my therapist. I guess that is why I'm not bothered by cancellations, no hugs, etc. We have close relationship, but it is a professional relationship, not a "real-life" relationship. My "real" relationships are with my husband, my children, my co-workers, my family, my friends.

I just want to say that a relationship with a therapist is "real". It's a real relationship just like any other relationship in "real" life. My relationship with my husband, sister, brother, best friend, mother, etc. are all different, yet real. Just because a relationship is professional doesn't make it any less real or significant. They are all "Real" supports in my life. Same with my professors when I was in college, and other professionals. Some are closer than others, true. I happen to have a closer relationship with my therapist than some other people in my life.

As far as hugs in therapy being helpful in meeting unmet needs, well yes and no. I think it depends on the degree. I had a therapist who hugged and held me every session for many years. It didn't really help resolve the unmet needs. I thought it would, and even convinced myself that it was at the time, but in hindsight it did not! I spent a great deal of time in a regressed baby state and it was not helpful to me. However, my current T will hug and has hugged me once. She also will hold my hand. It is more important for me to know that she will hug than to actually have the hug. What I think is most important of all is the sense of caring and connectedness that I get from my T. I know she really cares and i keep that inside and it just stays with me. I only see her twice a month and feel more connected than I did seeing my other T twice a week. The holding/hugging can lead to regression and loss of identity. I think it's important to get your needs met as an adult self, and hugging can be one way to do that. I think it's important to be careful of regression though, which can be damaging when it leads to an unhealthy dependency.

This is a fascinating thread - thanks for kicking it off, Rainbow!

I am a big hugger - I love giving hugs, I love receiving hugs. My family - also big huggers. Growing up, I was hugged a lot. The need that seems to be umet for me is being comforted - whether that's with words or with hugs or holding. Only recently have I started to allow those closest to me to really support me and know more about the 'real' me, and that's been in large part because I've shared these deep thoughts with T, and she hasn't run away - in fact, she encouraged me to build up my support system, so I've done just that. And guess what happened - my best friend told me that she's thrilled to get to know this part of me that I had closed off from her, and another close friend told me how it makes her so happy to be there for me. T really helped me with all of that. But because I was the one who held and comforted my mother when she was upset, and not the other way around, I don't seek out that kind of comfort, but how I crave it! So I think that when I finally do hug T, it will be similar to when I finally told T some things that I'd never told anyone and allowed those emotions to come up in me - the hugs may bring up some more of those repressed emotions, that we can then deal with. And if that goes well, maybe I will feel more comfortable in asking others for physical comfort when I feel like I really need it. I trust my T to be there for me, no matter what happens when we hug - it may be nothing, it may be something, but I do know that when T told me that she does give out hugs, I was so happy.

Sorry if I'm rambling or not making sense - I'm sick with a bad cold.

Oh, I don't dispute that it is a significant relationship. Don't get me wrong. But it is a temporary relationship (we hope) and one that only serves in that one environment and for that one purpose. Kind of like our relationships with teachers I guess. As a teacher, I care about my students, I get to know them, I support them, I teach them, but there are definite boundaries on that relationship. Time boundaries, professional boundaries, location boundaries. Certainly I am important to my students as they are to me, but we always know that we'll both move on. We aren't friends, we aren't relatives, we both have lives outside of the relationship, disconnected from the relationship. We have our "real" lives to live outside and beyond that relationship.

I care deeply about my therapist as he cares for me, but I know he goes home to his girlfriend, his children, his grandchildren, his own problems. I know he hasn't probably spent much time thinking about me for the last two weeks while he's been fishing on a river in Arkansas. That's his "real" life, his "home" life. That's where his deepest feelings lie. That's where his fun is. That's a good thing.

I see his purpose as to teach me, lead me, support me so that my "real" life outside in the cold, cruel world can prosper.

I have a counselor from college that I keep in touch with. We e-mail back and forth maybe once or twice a year. But ours is still a counselor/client relationship. He's not family. We are friendly, but I wouldn't refer to him as a friend. His "real" life was losing his son to Hodgekins disease; his "real" life was battling prostrate cancer; his "real" life is playing with his granddaughters.

I guess that's what I was getting at.

What a great thread. Funny I found this now because my T, who I have been seeing for around 3 yrs, hugged me for the first time in our last session a couple of days ago.

I have to say that I didn't like it, but appreciated the gesture. I love a hugs, but not from my therapist because it will affect the quality of my communication with him.

I don't want to be 'playing for hugs' so to speak. Someone who hugs can withold them, too. Hugs may unconsciously come to represent 'rewards' and lack of them 'punishment.'

I'm not very 'huggy' with most people; I didn't come from a 'huggy' family, so this will of course influence my opinion. I certainly like hugs, though, and am willing to get used to them with my T if he thinks this is healthy.

Sounds weird, but now I'm worried about a precedent being set. Do we hug each other now at the end of each session? If we don't, does that mean something?

Originally Posted by cypher

Sounds weird, but now I'm worried about a precedent being set. Do we hug each other now at the end of each session? If we don't, does that mean something?

cypher, did you discuss hugs before it happened? Who initiated the hug, you or your T?

I'm very glad that T and I talked out hugging, so we each know where the other stands. On one hand, it sounds kind of funny - it's just a hug, after all. But on the other hand, there are so many issues that go along with that one hug, as you outlined.

[TayQuincy]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I have a counselor from college that I keep in touch with. We e-mail back and forth maybe once or twice a year. But ours is still a counselor/client relationship. He's not family. We are friendly, but I wouldn't refer to him as a friend. His "real" life was losing his son to Hodgekins disease; his "real" life was battling prostrate cancer; his "real" life is playing with his granddaughters.

I guess that's what I was getting at.

I understand what you are saying. i guess I don't necessarily think of the professional relationships as being not part of my "real" life. My whole life is real and everyone in it. All relationships are temporary, sadly. People come and go, it's the nature of life. Relationships all have different boundaries. I have different boundaries with my husband than i do with my children. Yes, therapists can never be our friends. They don't come over for Thanksgiving, lol. But my therapist is part of my life, just a different type of relationship, not unlike all relationships when you think about it.

I just wanted to add that my first therapist was with me when i gave birth to my second child. My parents died when I was little and she was there to support me. We still keep in touch. She has alsways been a significant person in my life even though I no longer see her.

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

cypher, did you discuss hugs before it happened? Who initiated the hug, you or your T?

I'm very glad that T and I talked out hugging, so we each know where the other stands. On one hand, it sounds kind of funny - it's just a hug, after all. But on the other hand, there are so many issues that go along with that one hug, as you outlined.

Hi. My therapist initiated the hug. We didn't talk about hugging before, it was just spontaneous. It surprised me. I felt uncomfortable, but touched at the same time.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. Guess we'll see how it goes. Mike

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Deli

would it then contribute to me idolising him as the perfect caregiver/nurturer and interfere with my motivation to find these things in the "real" world? i think the answer for me is 'no' (i want hugs from someone not in a business suit!), but i think that some ppl could almost become so attached to the therapist, that the actual therapy bit fell to the wayside. kind of like the appointments would just be about maintaining that ideal relationship, rather than working on making 'real life' change

I thought about this. I dont get hugs from ftt (new t, anyway....) and dt never, ever came near me, and, honestly, I thought there was something wrong with me that she never gave me a hug. Seriouisly. I hadnt thought about hugging or not hugging, but the fact that she never gave me a hug after any really difficult session sais something to me. Maybe something unintended. So....it seems to my mind, the lack of hug made me feel.....something bad....not sure of what. Icky. It made me feel like I am icky.

BUT, what you said, Deli, sits right with me. What if she did give a lot of hugs, would I be obsessed (uh, I mean concerned....)with maintaining a hug-filled relationship with her? I might. It might make me even more attached to her, then in a physical way. Hmmmm....I might, or I might not, tough call. Though, hugging from my t, I believe, for me, could only have a positive effect on my relationships outside of therapy. I would still seek out my h, kids and friends in those moments when I am not too screwed up to do so .

Originally Posted by cypher

I don't want to be 'playing for hugs' so to speak. Someone who hugs can withold them, too. Hugs may unconsciously come to represent 'rewards' and lack of them 'punishment.'

T told me once that he hugs me, sits with me, holds my hand, cares for me because of who I *am* not because of what I do. He said that he wanted to be very careful to make sure it doesn't feel like a reward for something.

Can you talk to your T about this?

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by treehouse

T told me once that he hugs me, sits with me, holds my hand, cares for me because of who I *am* not because of what I do. He said that he wanted to be very careful to make sure it doesn't feel like a reward for something.

Can you talk to your T about this?

Hi Tree (that was a hug ) I love your t, I love him so much that I dont know if I would be able to distinguish the hug as a reward or not. How do you know? How do you keep your boundries? WIth your t, I love him so much I might want his physical-ness all the time. Or try to be the kind of client he wants me to be to keep a good relationship, but I see that you dont do that. You have really good boundries yourself. How do you keep it straight? (Or am I just a boundry-less borderline? )

[mightaswelllive]

When I have discussed hugs and other therapy behaviors in therapy, it has been to my understanding that it is not meant to fill a void but to meet an in the moment need (like comforting when crying) and also to model safe behavior to remember in the future. The more safe memories you have of things like hugs, the more open you'll become to receiving them from other people. If it's about being from T specifically - it's always a good idea to sit back and ask yourself why you feel like you need to get closer to T physically.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Hi Tree (that was a hug ) I love your t, I love him so much that I dont know if I would be able to distinguish the hug as a reward or not. How do you know? How do you keep your boundries? WIth your t, I love him so much I might want his physical-ness all the time. Or try to be the kind of client he wants me to be to keep a good relationship, but I see that you dont do that. You have really good boundries yourself. How do you keep it straight? (Or am I just a boundry-less borderline? )

Hmmm. I guess one way I know it's not a "reward" is because we have talked about it SO clearly...even using those very words "Not a reward". I used to think it was, and it was very stressful for me, but now I am really clear on what it is...a way to connect or to comfort or to get grounded. Because I'm ME, even if I'm being a major therapy pain in the *** (not that I would EVER be like that )

I don't really want his physicalness all the time. I know I can have it whenever I want, so I don't have that "desperate" feeling about it, like I think I might have if I wasn't sure if it was available. MOST sessions (unless we are deep, deep,deep in trauma stuff) T is in his chair and I am in mine. I usually ask him to come over 5 or 10 minutes before the end of session, and he does, and sometimes I will hold his hand just to connect. It feels more intimate when he is there with me, and that's when I can ask the really hard questions or whatever that have been eating at me.

There is NO sexual feeling to it...no undertones, or anything like that, at all. I just feel loved, and safe, in a really pure way.. I wondered how it would feel boundary-wise before there was any touch in therapy, but it feels totally fine. Comfortable and comforting.

That is me, and my T, and my therapy. I know the whole thing would look totally different with anyone else's T, in anyone else's therapy. That is the great thing about therapy. When it's done well, we can each get what WE, as individuals, need to heal.

<- hugs

So, can hugs from a T make up for unmet needs from our past? Would crying with my T with her hugging me/holding me, make it all better?

Rainbow8, this is a great topic and I thank you for starting it. I think it sort of goes to a deeper question, not just restricted to physical touch: does caring by a T help make up for unmet needs from our past? I know touch is a touchy subject , but I think when you ask the question more broadly, the answer is easier to see: yes. I think there's a great deal of learning and growth that can be done when caring is shown by a consistent presence in your life (as a T often is), and having those experiences change you, fill the void, and thus help extinguish some longings that otherwise haunt you so that you can move forward in life and eventually be able provide those things to others. Physical touch is not a part of my therapy relationship, but that general principle of my T filling in other unmet needs and that being beneficial, soothing, and growth-promoting has definitely been the case for me. So why wouldn't it be the case for physical touch too?

Would living out the fantasy of crying and being held by your T extinguish it and allow you to move on? Maybe it would make you want it all the time, maybe if it happened regularly and you saw that your T was consistently there for you it would help extinguish it, maybe it would make you would see that it didn't solve everything and so it would be easier to let it go, or maybe it would make things too intense to continue with self-reflective work necessary for therapy? I really don't know, but I understand the deep longing for physical touch/caring from an authority figure, especially if you were always denied it as a child. You're supposed to have it, supposed to be held and supported when you're upset, and the denial of that can leave deep longings. I don't really have all the answers for lessening that need, but you're not wrong for wanting it or for needing to process these feelings in therapy.

Maybe you could try it once and see what feelings it brought up for you? Or if physical touch is not an option with your therapist, I agree with your earlier T's who focused on finding other real life relationships to explore these needs with. I don't really like the argument that you should just comfort yourself, to "find it within". I had plenty of practice being self-sufficient, what I needed to work on was getting comfortable receiving support and caring from someone else. I could see the same being true for physical comforting. Would your T validating your feelings as you mourned the loss of what you should have had help? Can you channel the pain of your unmet needs into providing comfort to others, even a pet? Just brainstorming, but maybe those would be other options if physical touch in your therapy is not?