[rainbow8]

I responded to Brightheart's reply in my thread with this question. Many people think I'm afraid to get close to my T. Well, when I get close I want to be TOO close. I wanted to be close to Bt which made me obsess about her. I don't know how to find the middle ground, at least with a T. I want too much, and they won't let me have it. There are limits and boundaries that frustrate me no end. So, you do you have an intimate relationship with a T when it gets to be all you think about? I don't have a clue how to do it so there is a balance. It is "all or nothing" for me. The yearnings just start coming.

I sent another email last night and she responded, but said she wasn't sure what to write. She reminded me that she doesn't want to be t via email and she would print my emails to bring to my session. But the other day she said we had an agreement that I could email. So, I'm confused. I will have to get it clarified. I suppose I should email but not send them all because I don't want her to get frustrated with me like Bt did. The emails make me feel closer to her. Therapy is so confusing for me. She said to trust in the process, which I've heard before on this site. I'm not sure she understands me but I don't understand myself either. I just don't get this intimacy/connection stuff at all.

[mobius]

Could you ask your therapist about some of the different forms that intimacy takes on in the therapeutic relationship? And also for help about how to find the middle ground between all or nothing? I guess I don't know exactly myself, but it seems like talking with her about it might help to increase the intimacy in an appropriate way.

And yes, therapy is really confusing, I think in part because it's not really modeled after any other relationships we have. So it has its own category, which is ill-defined, and seems to depend in part on the specific therapist that you're seeing.

[jexa]

rainbow, I think even "too close" is fear of being close. I have a lot of personal experience with vacillating from "too close" to "totally withdrawing" and I've thought a lot about what you've said in your posts so far although I haven't been responding since I didn't have my thoughts together. So here are my thoughts so far. I may be totally off so please correct me if I'm wrong.

You want T to be a certain way, perfect, a representation. You want her to be all inside your head. I don't mean this as insulting in any way -- I do this too. If you are obsessed with T, you see.. it's a lot like this feeling: But do you see how there's only one smiley there? There aren't two people in that picture. There is you, surrounded in your rush of feelings, totally alone worshipping your T. And there is this intense difference in power, too, playing out these roles.. you are the adoring patient, T is on a pedestal.. and there is no equality, you are not the same, two humans in the same boat. So you're not "with her." And you aren't comfortable with it being anything different. Your T now, she is not all inside your head, you can't adore her, that makes you more vulnerable to her. Can you imagine being like this with your T? Instead of like this?

Does the thought of being on level ground make you uncomfortable?

Maybe intimacy is being just that vulnerable. Seeing T as human, real, not a fantasy creature, not an object of your adoration, but T. T the person. Who you're opening up to and sharing with despite being so uncomfortably vulnerable in front of another human.

Maybe your mother, through always being so accommodating and there for you, never let you see her as simply real. Simply, a person. Just like you. Do you think this has something to do with it?

I don't know if t and I have "intimacy"; I don't think of it in that terms at all. I also don't use the term "attached" when I think of our relationship. T and I have mutually respectful and open communication with each other. I trust him; I trust his guidance. I am able to be open and honest with him. I see him as a person who cares about my well-being. I love him as a person, as I would love any person who I knew who cared for my well-being. I have no idea if that is attachment or not, or intimacy or not. We don't use those terms; I've never used those terms in any therapy relationship. I have intimacy in my relationship with my husband and my family. That is where my attachments lie.

What it isn't is obsession. I don't obsess over my t or our relationship or therapy for that matter. If he sees me putting him up on a pedestal, he is quick to remind me that he's just a person and I need to bring it back down to earth. It's dangerous to place anyone on a pedestal; they'll always fall off. Meet them on equal ground.

Our therapy relationship is close, honest, open, and comforting. It's healthy. Is that what you are looking for? If so, accept your t with all her faults (particularly those little nitpicky ones). Meet her on ground level; face to face.

Hi rainbow,

sounds like your T is willing to let you email her as much as you like, but that she might not have much to say in reply, saving that for face to face.
What does close look like to you in any relationship? What do you envision when you think of being close to a T?
My understanding of intimacy is that it is not a constant state but one that allows for a natural movement towards and away from each other as each needs space. Probably looks a bit different in therapy since it is a less mutual situation. Being obsessed is not intimacy, in fact it is probably a barrier to true intimacy. Is it possible that once you begin to form an attachment you become so panic stricken that you might be abandoned that you feel like you have to have a stranglehold on the relationship?

[rainbow8]

mobius, thanks for your good suggestions. I will definitely talk to T about appropriate intimacy in therapy. I know that I want more of it in my RL (real life) especially with my H too. It's been hard to work on that because he doesn't see a problem.

jexa, your insights are correct. It's hard to admit, though. Intimate relationships have always been mostly inside my head. I talked about that in my session this week. I always worshipped someone from afar until I went to college and had a boyfriend.

Bt and I discussed how it was easy for me to "be in love with her" but hard to "love her". The real relationship is scary--too close. So you're right, except that I did see my Mom as a real person, at least when I was older.

I have to read what you posted over and over. Thank you for putting "my" thoughts into words.

farmergirl, I know you don't crave/need what I do in therapy. I wish it could be like that for me, but it's not. I need T in a different way. I want to be equal, but part of me doesn't. Jexa explained "me" very well!

ripley, it could be that you're right. I'm not sure what I'm afraid of--maybe people seeing me as I really am and rejecting me. I don't know what it is supposed to like in therapy. I just know that it usually is TOO much or nothing for me. Too connected, or not at all. It rarely seems right, though there have been times when it was, but they never last. This subject is very important to me. Hard to face.

[Perna]

The only "real" T is the one one sees face-to-face for session each week. Everything else, e-mail T, in-my-head T, etc. is just fantasy and my own thinking. Intimacy can only happen in the presence of the other, in the give and take of talking to another person and sharing one's self. Intimacy is sharing, not wanting or being given to.

I wrote my T multiple real letters (not e-mail) each week, especially when she was on vacation, and mailed them to her office. We did not discuss them (unless I brought them up in session) and I don't know if she read them or threw half of them in the trash, etc. :-) But, I imagined her reading them and that gave me comfort for many years.

However, my imagination is not reality. Just because I want or imagine something does not make it relevant to the other person. The ONLY way you interact with another person is by actually interacting with them. That's why therapy still has to be face-to-face to be "therapy". Yes, one can have helpful/nice posts on sites like PsychCentral and enter into online counseling with a therapist and thus do email, but to do actual therapy, it is necessarily to have the real person in front of you; someone one can experience with all of one's senses, one's whole person.

Eventually (after about 6 or 7 years) I decided I wanted my therapist as she actually was; in the reality and limits of the session. I wanted to take the chance and share myself with her and get her responses to what I had to say. So, I had to take "everything" to her in the room, not write her anymore, not work on things "on my own" after I left and bring them all solved and pretty (or messed up further :-) and just share the solutions; in short, I had to do the therapy work there in the therapy room with this other person. That was intimate enough for me; I could have used a bit larger office, LOL.

I don't know that I have any answers for you, but I get how hard this is to figure out. Yet, I think this could be a big key to your finding healthy intimacy in other relationships....once you learn what healthy intimacy looks like with your T. If that makes sense...

Re: the email thing. Try not to read too much into her response. It sounds to me like she really wanted to respond to you and for you to know that she hears you. But she is holding back because she wants to talk in person.

My T allows unlimited email, but I've learned that what feels best for me is to email once a week or so just to connect and get some reassurance that she's there. I often start a draft email and add/delete thoughts over the course of several days. Or write, and let it sit in my draft folder for a day or so before sending it.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

It rarely seems right, though there have been times when it was, but they never last..

Perhaps this is part of your dilemma, expecting some kind of constant state of connectedness and getting frightened by normal, natural, part of any relationship shifts in how things feel...
I know this is important stuff. I hope the new T can help you sort it out.

[Brightheart]

I'm going to jump in here without reading everyone's responses thoroughly.

The fantasy you often create inside your mind, Rainbow, may also be a means of avoiding true intimacy. You make the relationship you desire too good to be true, set the standards at an inaccessible place, and the disappointments which inevitably follow may even be protecting you from a reality which you fear. Intimacy, to me, is a place that you share with another person, where you are comfortable with 100% being yourself. You recognize the other person as a flawed human being like yourself and are able to be completely honest in who you are as a person. It's amazing how relationships with others really help us to recognize, understand and be aware of ourselves.

For me and former T, I would definitely say it was intimate. The boundaries were always held in place, but there was a shared closeness and awareness of one another...as therapist and client and from one human being to another. Shared human experience. It's different than what we are accustomed to in other relationships, but can also be very beautiful in its own right. How did it feel intimate for me? I knew all of his sounds, gestures, non-verbals...I would still recognize his voice out of thousands. He sat with me during this vital period of my life and shared with me by guiding me along the path. In these months of sessions with him, I discovered myself. And, to my surprise, I found self-love by allowing the closeness and letting myself be seen.

What is it, Rainbow, about yourself that you fear sharing with others? Maybe try and think hard about what it is exactly that you are afraid of in this.

[Fartraveler]

she reminded me that she doesn't want to be t via email and she would print my emails to bring to my session. But the other day she said we had an agreement that I could email.

This is what my T does also. I email her as much as I want. But she doesn't email back (except if it's a scheduling thing, or like that.) She does however print out an email sometimes if it's something she thinks we should talk about.

She also does not want to do therapy by email. But she does like to know what is going on with me, so it's ok for me to email her.

(Also, I have no idea what intimacy in therapy looks like.)

-Far

(((((((((Rainbow))))))))

For me, intimacy is me sharing myself with T, and him sharing himself with me. He holds firm boundaries and doesn't tell me lots of details about his personal life, but he is giving of himself, and of his feelings. He is always honest with me, and will always check in with himself before answering questions that I ask. He is completely present with me, totally attentive to all of the verbal and non-verbal things I am telling him.

For my part, intimacy is me letting down my walls, opening up my heart, and letting myself be vulnerable. It's being willing to be completely honest. It's allowing myself to be cared for, no matter how I feel about myself. It's letting T see ALL of me - all of my feelings, all of my parts.

Therapy is something T and I do TOGETHER. He doesn't have all of the answers, and neither do I, but we are both willing to be open and honest and curious to see if we can find the answers together. T holds my story for me, he lightens my burden. It truly feels like we are in this thing together.

Intimacy can be scary, and intense, and healing.

Every session isn't perfect. Sometimes I'm angry, or T is tired, or I'm distracted, or...who knows what? Sometimes the connection is so intense I can almost see it...sometimes we're just two people in a room together, chatting. Both are part of any intimate relationship.

Rainbow, what if you just accept T how she is, and accept your feelings how they are? Just let things BE, and see how everything unfolds? Usually if I can just let go of my expectations, and let go of my need for control, things turn out even better then I thought they could.

[ECHOES]

To me intimacy in therapy feels safe, accepting, reliable. It's when I feel comfortable and can just freely relate in an open and honest way. While I might hide my motivation or expectation about something from a social contact, I would freely share it without judgment in therapy, secure in my knowledge that T is there to explore with me, learn about me--with me, will laugh with me, will share her own thoughts and feelings about what is happening right then and there.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

What does intimacy in therapy look like?

For me, a part of it is when the two people respond genuinely to each other. Neither is throwing up defenses/barriers in their interactions. They are who they are and they let the other person see them. Neither puts up walls to keep from being close or being seen. The walls are down (not the same as meaning there are no boundaries in the relationship). Each person can be vulnerable and trust the other person to not hurt them when they are in that state, but to treasure the moments of vulnerability instead. Depending on how reciprocal a relationship one has with one's T, this can look different for different people.

Not everyone has intimacy in therapy with their Ts, and their therapy is effective. So I don't see it as essential. Is it something you want in your T relationship, rainbow?

Originally Posted by Ripley

Being obsessed is not intimacy, in fact it is probably a barrier to true intimacy.

I agree. There is something objectifying about obsession, and I don't think a person can be intimate with someone they have turned into an object. If you know the work of Martin Buber (one of my favorite philosophers), you may find relevance to his work, "I and Thou." Intimacy is saying "you" (or thou) to the other person. Obsession is saying "it."

Originally Posted by griffinp

I think this could be a big key to your finding healthy intimacy in other relationships....once you learn what healthy intimacy looks like with your T.

I really agree with that. That is one of the great uses of the therapeutic relationship. We can practice new ways of being with our Ts, new ways of interacting. Then we take what we learn in this controlled environment and try to apply it out in the real world. This is what I often think of when I consider whether I am making the most use of my therapy that I can. Am I using my T relationship to maximum benefit? Or am I sitting there, not practicing, not working, just coasting, or throwing up stumbling blocks to our relationship and my healing?

Today I had therapy, and we continued a series of sessions in which I am trying to tell my T a story from my life. I am not being very swift to get it out, LOL, for various reasons. Today I was feeling some internal pressure to make some progress on this. T was sitting there, intensely attuned to me, looking at me--very open. I felt like he was waiting for me. I said, I feel like you're waiting for me to say something. He said no, he wasn't waiting (that was my projection), he was just being. He was being with me, and it was a chance for me to just be with him. I think this is intimacy.

[kitten16]

Good thread. My own therapy situation is so weird that way. My T keeps talking about, "We have a real relationship, this thing doesn't work without us being emotionally connected, this is all about emotion, emotion, emotion." And yet he's one of the coldest, most distant T's I've had.

I think the emotion he talks about will only come for me once I feel he has accepted me. I don't feel that way. I'm not saying I don't ever want to be criticized. I do want my errors pointed out, but only by someone whose judgment and wisdom and -- yes -- loving care for me I believe in. He's not there yet. Or I'm not there yet. Or something.

My T has to respect me, not dismiss me, in order for this to happen. I need him to stop saying: "I don't buy it," or "I don't believe you." He thinks I'm lying to him all the time. It's just bizarre. As long as he accuses me of being a liar, the only emotion I'll ever feel around him is one of fear and distrust. It blows me away that he doesn't get that.

[rainbow8]

sunrise, of course I want intimacy in my relationships. It's what I want more than anything. I am going to stop using the word "obsessed" to talk about what I wanted with Bt. I didn't want to be obsessed. I wanted intimacy.

This isn't a good time to discuss anything. My grandson had open heart surgery. I just lost my job. A close friend of mine died last night. All in the past few days!!!!!! I am going to give myself some hugs right here:

[Brightheart]

Oh, Rainbow, I am so sorry.

[rainbow8]

Sorry I feel like being defensive. I was intimate with Bt. We were genuine with each other and I told her everything. I wanted to be with her all of the time and thought about her much of the time. That doesn't mean we weren't intimate in therapy. Or does it? I am SO confused about all of these issues.

I am very honest with new T. I will probably tell her how her weight affects me. I can't NOT tell. I'm always honest. She already told me she feels connected to me. So that will be intimacy too. I think I can be intimate and also think about T too much. They go together for me. I"m getting triggered by all of this only because I can't figure it out, and I want to, not by your replies, sunrise or anyone else.

Plus the RL stuff I posted, which hardly anyone even comments on, though it doesn't belong in this thread. Why is it like that? Can't we talk about RL in this forum? I feel like my grandson doesn't exist to anyone here. Yes, I posted in the health forum, finally and appreciate the replies there.

(((((((((rainbow)))))))))

I'm sorry you have so much going on.

[Perna]

It is hard to concentrate on/in therapy when so many other, hard real things are happening in one's life! I hope your grandson is doing fine after his surgery and I'm sorry to hear your friend died. Are you planning to look for a new job right away or. . . ?

I think "intimacy" is a bit of a loaded word. It can mean so many different things to different people. Some only think of sex, some of sharing secrets or marriage partners, etc. I prefer to think of the word "vulnerability" when I think of therapy. I aim to be more open and vulnerable with my therapist. To a certain extent, I don't even consider what my therapist is doing, why and how, etc. since it's my therapy and I am supposed to be working on me and "using" my therapist to help me. The therapy partnership is a close one but not a permanent one, more a business relationship than like anything else in real life.

[Brightheart]

I often get triggered around stuff written which appears to minimize this kind of relationship even still after being out of therapy for almost a year and a half. I can definitely relate, Rainbow. No relationship is ever permanent. Therapy has different meanings for different people. I wouldn't think of having "used" my therapist to help myself, but more of learning through relating with him. It's business, yes, but our feelings are always personal to us. I will always think very fondly of him and I want him to be happy in his life. It was very much real life, but was just held safely in the therapeutic space. Limited, but real. Business relationship, but my feelings are personal. I will always love and care about him.

I'm sorry. Guess I did it again. It was just very special to me.

Rainbow, I hope the baby is doing okay. I'm sorry about your friend.

[rainbow8]

Thanks, Brightheart. I get a sinking feeling when I hear therapy talked about as a "business relationship" too. Kt does not seem like a businesswoman to me and I'm glad! I can't "do therapy" that way. It's got to be more than that. Sigh.....

I wonder if it is both? A business relationship, yes...because we are paying T to provide a service that we need. But then within that, a real, true, intimate relationship. For me, it's not either/or. Thinking of it as "just" a business relationship doesn't feel right, or real, because although I am paying T, it is clearly more than that. But thinking of it as a relationship like any other outside of therapy doesn't feel right either...it IS close, and intimate, and real, AND it is also there to help *me* heal, with boundaries that are designed to facilitate that. It really is a relationship unlike ANY other...its it's own unique kind of relationship, which makes it really special to me.

When I used to work in mental health, my relationship with my clients was based on the fact that I was there, being paid to do a job, which was to facilitate their healing and growth. Without that aspect of the relationship, our paths wouldn't have even crossed. And the goal was to help them grow enough to not *need* me anymore.

AND at the same time, I loved some of my clients dearly. While I obviously didn't lean on them in any way, or tell them the details of my life, I did give of myself in many other ways. The relationship we shared was absolutely "real". I still think of many of them today (many years later) and wonder how they are doing. I don't think of them as people I "did business" with...I think of them as PEOPLE. People that I like very much, real people that I had a real relationship with.

To me, it feels like the answer is almost always somewhere in "and/both", which can be ridiculously complicated, but feels like the truth.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by treehouse

When I used to work in mental health, my relationship with my clients was based on the fact that I was there, being paid to do a job, which was to facilitate their healing and growth. Without that aspect of the relationship, our paths wouldn't have even crossed. And the goal was to help them grow enough to not *need* me anymore.

Yes, that is my idea of the therapy relationship too. The word "business" in front is not a dirty word :-) A relationship is just that, a relationship; just shaking hands and handing one a check is what is often thought of when one uses the word "business" with therapy but those actions do not make for a relationship! Business relationships can be quite warm and helpful to both people. . . like therapy can.

[jexa]

Originally Posted by Perna

Yes, that is my idea of the therapy relationship too. The word "business" in front is not a dirty word :-) A relationship is just that, a relationship; just shaking hands and handing one a check is what is often thought of when one uses the word "business" with therapy but those actions do not make for a relationship! Business relationships can be quite warm and helpful to both people. . . like therapy can.

Right! It's the way you can totally love your hair stylist.. much different of course, but does it taint the relationship that the person gets paid to do your hair? Not really!