Therapist equals The Treatment?

My therapist tossed me the old chestnut "I'm not going to confirm that because it's not relevant to your treatment" when I made an assumption that she's 9 years younger than me, based on the year she got her Bachelors (part of her published info).

She'd previously said that she's "right behind me" or close to my age, but to me 9 years is a big difference, 25% of her total! I pointed out some of the things I've done in the past 9 years that have completely altered my life (being unemployed, becoming a parent by giving birth - twice, losing 30 lb, changing jobs, having a heart attack, etc) that she should not underestimate how much she will grow in those years, nor minimize the difference.

Yes, I'd hoped to find a T who is older than me, and I told her this early on. But I also told her I was glad I'd tossed out the list and found her since she has experience and knowledge and an approach that I needed. I prefer an experienced practitioner, be it dentist or cardiologist, co-worker or boss.

My treatment - it's not a pill or shot or brace, its the therapy with her. In therapy, the treatment IS entirely tied to the therapist's years of experience (which increase with AGE), depth of education and training, wisdom and maturity, so how can age not be considered relevant to my treatment? No, I don't need to know if it's exactly 9 yr, or 8 or 10; she's already told me that she has 14 yr of experience, so I know she's counting all the years she was in grad school as work experience years, and her licensed years (LCSW) are considerably fewer than 14.

argh. The dismissive response is really what's bugging me. But do I need to apologize, if I sounded condescending or disrespectful in observing the gap in our years?

I am a VERY young therapist. 24 years old. I have clients who are my parents/grandparent's age. I definitely understand wanting a therapist with experience. I, too, sitting on the client side of things, want someone who knows what they're doing!
But I've learned, on both sides: age is a factor, sure, but it doesn't determine experience. Through my life and therapy experiences, I am much "older" than many of my colleagues who rank above me in age. My training is more up to date and modern with what's going on now. My personal life experiences make me someone who works very, very well with trauma cases, while those in the field for 10 years may be clueless about.
She also may not have followed traditional college schooling (right out of HS, into a 4 year college, etc). She may have taken some time off in there, which may make her a tad bit older than you think.
I do not think you need to apologize unless you find that healing for YOU. As a young therapist, we are used to being questioned about our ability to treat. It comes with the territory. Though, I do agree with her wondering, of if she confirmed that she is younger than you, what would that mean for you?

I'm not sure if I'd say her response was dismissive (but of course I wasn't there!), but I would call it distancing. Her response pushed you away a little, as I think it was designed to. It sends the message, "hey, please don't ask me personal questions!" To me, it is a sign of the relationship not yet being ready to bear that much self disclosure from her. My T tells me way more stuff about himself now than when we first began therapy. The relationship needed time to develop and our trust too-it goes both ways. The client is reluctant to open up at first, and the therapist too may not want to share too much about herself right away. If it were me, I would give her a bit of space and back off on asking her personal questions about her age and so on. BlackCanary, I bet you may learn these things about her later, after you have been together for a while.

Even if you don't know her age, you could explore what the age of your therapist means to you, and how her having experience matters or doesn't matter, etc. I do think it is entirely appropriate for a client to ask, even at the outset of therapy, how many years the therapist has been practicing, about areas of expertise, training, etc. Those questions aren't bumping up against any personal boundaries. And it sounds like you did explore this in your last session. She tried to say she was right there behind you, perhaps trying to reassure you that she could appreciate the issues you bring to therapy. And you explained further your concerns about an age difference. I don't know, BlackCanary, it sounds like maybe an OK discussion to me!

I think especially when we think we are getting along well with our T, and then we bump up against a boundary, it is disconcerting. It can hurt a little and remind us that this is how our client-T relationship is (at least for now!).

Were you being condescending or disrespectful?

No, no need to apologize for anything brought up in therapy. But since her answer is bugging you, you might want to talk about what it means to you that she doesn't confirm your statement.

It is frustrating when that happens.
I once asked my therapist if she was married after she told me that she wasn't going to be away for a week as she had originally planned, saying "We decided to go another time.". I asked if the "We" meant she was married. "I'm going to decline to answer that. I'd like to know more about your thoughts or fantasies about that.". Sheesh, I thought it was a simple question. lol. A few monts later, she was talking freely about her husband, telling me that he once told her he sometimes feels like a "kid in a suit"

Her answer was protective of your therapy at that moment. But it may need to be talked about more even if she doesn't answer directly. I hope she would be open to talking about your feelings about your therapist being younger, or your natural worry about her experience being enough to be helpful to you, etc.

Yes it is frustrating. I know for myself I had very low self esteem when I entered therapy, but also a grandiose sense of entitlement brought on by a dysfunctional upbringing where what you should have been given freely wasn't (love) and what was given freely and shouldn't was everyones dysfunctional baggage, no one had any healthy boundaries and everyone told everyone else just what they thought of them and along comes a healthy person (my therapist) with healthy boundaries and a right to decided what she wants to disclose and when and I just hit it full on...it was and can still be painful working with boundaries, but much needed in my case. I felt contained/held finally by them instead of raging all over with no sense of where I end and someone else begins.

Are you trying to trust her Canary? Check her out completely so that you can feel that you can trust her?

The therapist said >>"I'm not going to confirm that because it's not relevant to your treatment"

Sunny said >> Even if you don't know her age, you could explore what the age of your therapist means to you, and how her having experience matters or doesn't matter, etc. I do think it is entirely appropriate for a client to ask, even at the outset of therapy, how many years the therapist has been practicing, about areas of expertise, training, etc.

yes, and so it seems that the question IS relevant to YOUR treatment, BC.

Sunny >> Those questions aren't bumping up against any personal boundaries. And it sounds like you did explore this in your last session.
If the discussion went as you describe it, I don't see that you have anything to apologize for; of course yr T could always apologize for saying something distancing when you (both) are relationship-building...

Hey All, thanks!
I got this response "I'm not going to confirm the gap..." via email. I guess so far I'd not gotten a cliched response like this from her previously. Felt like I've hit a nerve but might just be an email thing.

She's ready to reveal nearly anything, it seems, so this response seemed odd in that context. We talked about my list of T "features" maybe a month ago. In that session she seemed to be trying to minimize the age difference (I know I look young but I'm not that young). When I said I'd hoped to work with a therapist who is married, she said No, she's not married but she's been with the same partner for 7 years, told me his name. Started to go into why they are not married...I waved her off - she stopped herself. I told her I appreciated her knowledge of working with kids, since she'd been a school counselor for a number of years, but when you are a parent you have an intuitive understanding of the challenges. She said her boyfriend's kids are around all the time, so she's kind of a stepparent to them, not the same but similar. Then she said "I'm not able to have children of my own, that's why I don't have kids" TMI
I know we are not just 2-3 yr apart - all her schooling dates are posted publicly. It's definitely 8-10 yr.

@Stormy, what she's good at for me is the trauma stuff. I absolutely believe that having been down the path, you've got an insight that so many will NEVER have, you'll always be better on that topic. My older T - a guy - was not, mostly due to not having clients come to him with that SINCE he is a guy. But I'm 20+ years older than you. You are not the one I'll come see for marital advice, and I'd hope you wouldn't try to give it to me. In 20 years, you are going to be an AMAZING therapist, you can be a leader in the field of trauma therapy.

I guess I just have to clarify myself to her - the difference (8-10 yr) to me is substantial, we are not close in age or life experience.
I had a challenge - at work - with a boss who is younger and less experienced than me. He doesn't minimize the difference however, and thankfully he's not my boss anymore! I also realize I'm getting older , and it's going to happen more often that my boss or doc is younger than me - for the first time last summer I saw a doc who couldn't have been more than 30! Guess what - he was the only doc I'd seen who actually customized the computerized records system!

I think I've left the impression that I don't respect her or trust her because she's younger than me. I feel like I'd better clear the air on that. At the same time, I don't want her to minimize the difference, or tell me she understands what it is like to be my age (or be married or give birth). I realize that for me, the whole of the therapist's work and life experience is key to me feeling understood, to having an authentic and intuitive connection. I'm probably expecting too much....

Given the amount she has disclosed, it seems odd that she would decline to share her age. I would assume it is a sensitive spot for her. If she looks young, she may have had to deal with people not trusting her experience or competence.

i dont think you are expecting to much .life experiance is huge

Sounds like she is in a defensive position. Learning to get over defensiveness comes with age. You are asking her all of these questions and then complaining TMI! You can't have it both ways.

I kind of disagree. I think it is reasonable to ask about a therapist's years of practicing, although a 30 year old therapist could have the same years of practice as a 50 year old therapist depending on when they started training. Then the question is - is a therapist's years of life experience important to their ability to be a good therapist - and I'm not sure there is a clear answer to that question. I think it would depend on the kind of life experiences, the type of therapy they are doing, and the issues of the client.

I don't expect my brain surgeon to have had the same procedure that he/she is performing on me, (in fact I might be concenrned if he did), but I would want to know how many times he had done that particular surgery.

I have to respectfully disagree....in a lot of ways, I don't know what I want the boundaries to be without exploring them. There have been times I've asked T a question and then realized later that I didn't want all of the information I had been given. And other times, I've asked a question and he hasn't answered, and it's felt kind of bad.

Over time, the amount of information I'm comfortable knowing about T has changed. I used to want to know NOTHING...I needed him to just be some guy in an office, period. Now I'm comfortable knowing a lot more, but even with that, I've asked questions that I've later regretted.

It's not black or white...know everything or know nothing. It's okay to ask questions, and be most comfortable somewhere in the gray area....knowing some things and not others.

I'm not saying that she cannot ask questions, but asking your therapist if they are married is a personal question IMO and I'm just saying that I cannot believe she is complaining TMI when she is asking personal questions.

I respectfully disagree also. There is a difference between asking about marital status, a common question, and having fertility information volunteered. That is too personal and wasn't asked.

Hey Sannah, its OK, because the wacky thing is that I never DID ask if she was married or a parent! I made an assumption that she was not, no wedding ring.
What I did bring up was that I had a preconceived idea of what I would want in my "next" therapist when I was trying to terminate with originalT.
I told her my list - married, parent, older than me, healthy lifestyle (non smoker, not obese), knowledgeable of women's trauma. So she told me about how she isn't married BUT she's got something similar. She's not a parent but a stepparent. As a follow on, she did NOT need to volunteer her infertility. I would NEVER have asked about that, it's completely way to personal.

We did talk about it some today - she actually came out and told me that her age is the "wrong thing" for me to focus on, and if I don't think she has enough experience to treat me that she can refer me. A really strong response. I argued that I can focus on whatever I want in therapy, thank you very much. After a few more minutes, she said "Oh, I get it!" So, she was saying "age" but meaning "experience". I was saying age and meaning age.
I'm still trying to get adjusted to having a therapist who is substantially younger than me.
I do think she is smart enough and has enough experience.
This is also tied to my focus on aural vs. her focus on visual. I have a long habit of examining the meaning of every word spoken, I have a high degree of recall around conversations, music, sounds, etc. She's totally focused on visual things, and does not use as much care in her words as I might (or as she will in 10 years). But she notices something physical ("You shared all this today, and I noticed this is the first time you did not bring your bag") and also assigns a meaning to it!! To me, I just had too much stuff to carry to also bring in my tote with therapy stuff in it.

My originalT, who was older and more experienced, likely would have written back "OK, fair enough, that was a pretty cliche'd response on my age. We can talk about this more when we meet next". He'd have accepted my point on dragging out an old therapeutic chestnut as lame, but postponed additional discussion until we were in person.
She didn't respond at all.

Of course, he was happy to tell me his age, had it up on Facebook....!!!

My T is about 13 years younger than I am but it doesn't matter to me, probably because she's "middle-aged" and I'm "more than middle-aged". We both have kids, though hers are younger, of course.

My former T was 2 years older than I am. She had many more years experience than my current T. But you know which one I like better, don't you? So I don't think it matters, though I can see how it does to you.

It doesn't make sense that your T offered her infertiliy information but won't tell you her age. You can probably find it online, you know. Or at least a good estimate, unless her name is very common.

I wasn't getting anything done here at work, so I wrote down my thoughts (in addition to posting) in my journal. Then I just called her, wanted to GET IT OUT that this was still bugging me.
So, she called me back when someone was running late.
She immediately agreed that saying "focused on the wrong thing" was the wrong word, wrong thing for her to say. I'd put in my VM that if I want to focus my resistance on that, then I will! She agreed that what she was trying to point out was my resistance.
(we didn't go into WHAT my resistance is, but I'm pretty sure I need to keep holding on to something about her that is just "not exactly right" so that I won't like her as much as my old therapist who was "exactly right" in terms of age, marital status and parental status - but not as smart as she is nor trained in what I needed like she is. I loved him and I miss him terribly. )
The pushing back on the age topic, creating the tension, saying it's not relevant to my treatment, not replying to my email, she was doing that on purpose. It's a technique. Lovely. She was actually perfectly fine with telling me her age.
She's about to turn 36, next week.
Then she said "Now I've realized that it's related to your anxiety about getting older!" HA, so she's really going to like the resistance insight.

Glad you spoke up and will talk more about it.

Could the resistance be about not wanting to let her in, or not wanting to focus on you so you are finding things about her (etc) to focus on?

I really love that you pushed right back "If I want to focus my resistance on that then I will!" This is such a wonderful response, as are your additional insights. Bravo! She is lucky to have you as a client.

I really like that. It's true--we get to pick the topics that are important to us.

I'm so glad you stuck with this until she really understood. The issues of professional experience and age are different and it sounds like she was stuck in "experience" and couldn't hear "age." I think it says a lot of good about her as a therapist, that she stuck with you until understanding was achieved.

That is a really interesting observation. Does she know that about you? Maybe it would help her. If you are interested in reading a fantastic book about the importance of language in therapy, I highly recommend Making Contact: Uses of Language in Psychotherapy by Leston Havens.

When I was going through my divorce, it turned out to be really valuable to have a T who has gone through divorce himself (both as a husband and when he was a child). It gave him a lot of insight into what I was going through as well as what it was like for my kids. Plus, I imagine it helped him empathize better, as he would know firsthand how gutwrenching it can be to end one's marriage, no matter how good/bad it is. He is not himself a parent, though, and I guess I would have liked that, but it has turned out to be fine. I didn't go into therapy with a list of preferences. I just wanted someone who could help me! Pretty vague, I know.... Someone with a list like yourself, BlackCanary, probably has a higher chance of finding someone who will be a good fit, and it does sound like your new T has a lot going for her.

What is the technique? I am fine with a T not replying to an email because they are busy or because it is part of their "no therapy by email" policy, etc. But deliberately not replying as some sort of technique sounds really yuck to me. Like she's playing with your feelings.

Do you agree with her interpretation?

I admit to trying to get a feel for a therapist's age by peeping at the diplomas on the wall--and I try to see if there are family pictures around and so on. Some of you might know that the Freudian (psychoanalytic) view is that therapists are not to be at all self-revealing--so their patients can project, transfer, and all those other what they perceive are necessary occurrences. But then along came therapists such as Carl Rogers who believed in more of a personal approach. Some of you might know more about it than I do--like how self-disclosing he really was....

I think the key IS feeling comfortable with the relationship. Obviously, we do need to be in therapy with someone whose opinions and advice we trust and value. At this point in my life--uh, let's just say "middle age"--I do seek out people who are at least of more or less my same generation.....Frankly, I admit to some "ageism." But, on other side, I did "fire" one psychiatrist because I believe he needs to go ahead and retire....But that's another issue, I suppose. I believe that he was not keeping up with the latest research into psychiatric drugs and their effects....He had the "I've always done it this way..." attitude.

I know I'm drifting from the original intent to some extent, but I guess I'm old enough now that I think I need to share my advanced "wisdom" with others--Ha!

@Sunrise
I'm not if the technique has a name, but she says she's doing it on purpose to push me, to create tension. I'd probably like it better if she just asked me direct questions. After this session I did ask her to please feel free to pull the thread a bit sooner, if she has figured out what I'm trying to say.
Still, I'm generally fine with her taking an approach with a purpose in mind. I'm not afraid to give feedback as needed
I've noticed that she's prone to making assumptions (durn young people!). So, she assumed that I was anxious about getting older, I think I laughed in response! I said I"m not anxious, I'm annoyed - it's harder to hear, harder to see, I'm tired, getting grey hair....!!
I ended up writing her an email to provide the resistance thing - it's about the ex-T, who was the perfect age, married, a parent. If I can hold on to this thing about her that's "not exactly right", her age, then I can keep my distance emotionally, stay safe, not like her as much as I L**ED him. Because l**ing him has created so much shame, guilt and emotional pain .....

@payne - she's pretty free about revealing stuff, says that it is part of her approach and for most clients it helps them feel comfortable and it's more effective for the therapeutic relationship. My exT did not reveal, or revealed very reluctantly and felt uncomfortable that I knew stuff about him. It was almost petty. But I think he typically dealt with people fresh from the hospital, where a closed approach might be standard.

You'll all appreciate this insight from my SIL: I told her I have an instinct to mentor the younger T, guide her in gaining wisdom and maturity.... My SIL says "You AND your brother!! Stop it!"
ha, so it is a weakness of my people to provide advice and guidance since we know better

Good insight, this is how I see all this that you are doing too.