[Bagels]

Can therapy actually directly help you find positive feelings, and find emotions where they don't seem to be?

I've been in therapy (this time 'round) for nearly a year or so, and gotten a lot of benefit out of it from managing things in my life that stress me. I've learned some good coping techniques. However, the one thing that doesn't seem to be going anywhere at all is what I'd call emotional self-improvement. Most therapeutic techniques I've come across about feeling better aren't really about feeling good, but about not feeling bad. (The "Feeling Good Handbook" by Burns comes to mind right away, for example.) The assumption seems to be that if you can make the bad stuff, distortions, etc. go away, the good feelings will emerge. Or you try to replace negative self-talk with positive talk, and see if you start listening. That hasn't been true for me; I can definitely improve from feeling bad, but the outcome is I feel kind of empty. Empty is much better than bad! But positive, warm, optimistic emotions seem to be something I don't do much.

A related problem I've been trying to work on is that I seem to have very diminished emotions towards people. I know why. We've talked for hours in therapy about what effects in my childhood may have caused this (and the above issue as well). But that knowledge doesn't seem to do _any good at all_ in solving the actual problem. I'm married with kids, and love them in my way I guess, and we're stable, but I'm saddened that I don't seem to get more emotionally positive out of the experience. My therapist and I seem to have reached the conclusion that the above two issues are "who I am," and we should work on acceptance of that and how to improve my life with that knowledge.

It seems to me, based on experience now with multiple therapists, that therapy can't really "make positive stuff happen." The idea is to focus on removing negatives, looking at them more reasonably, and see what bubbles out. Is that accurate? If I'm not "bubbling," should I keep looking for _yet another therapist_ (I'm kind of worn out), or is this the sort of thing that one learns to accept and move on?

I'm fully aware that what therapy (and any medical help, for that matter) is limited by current knowledge, capability, and other things... I guess I'm looking for a sense of what therapy should be capable of doing. I can work to accept and cope, but I'm trying to get a sense as to whether looking for a significant change in how I emotionally interact with the world (the underlying cause) is asking too much or not.

[darkrunner]

Hi Bagels

Welcome to PC!

That is an interesting question. I read it a couple of times and I'm not quite sure how to answer it specifically, so I'll just offer some general thoughts I had.

In a general sense, I think everyone has positive and negative in their lives, and many times people end up in therapy when they are overwhelmed with the negative stuff. Doesn't mean the positive feelings aren't there. So yes, i think a lot of therapy is about coping better with the negative feelings to make room for the positive ones.

Also, many people use coping skills that tend to 'numb out' because they can't cope with the negative feelings. That in turn prevents them from experiencing the positive feelings as well. Do you tend to use any coping techniques to avoid feelings or numb yourself?

Are you on any medication? Because I think I've heard that some medications can kind of make people feel 'flat' and empty, as well.

[learning1]

I think your post is complicated, very thoughtful and interesting. I don't feel confident about answering because I don't know. But it sounds like you are pretty aware of not feeling positive emotions which made it sound to me like what Dark Runner said, that maybe you are numbing your feelings? I'm not sure. Based on your post, it doesn't sound like you are really satisfied to not work on experiencing more positive feelings, especially with your kids. Have you communicated with your t about this topic much already?

[Bagels]

Thanks for the responses, learning1 and darkrunner!

No, I'm not on medication; and yes, my t and I have discussed the topic plenty. I pushed pretty hard to try to focus more on how to get positive emotions, but again it seems most therapeutic techniques aren't geared up for that. There's a large toolkit of ways to avoid feeling bad, but it seemed that there wasn't much available to us for figuring out how to make warm positive emotions emerge. We spent a while at one point trying to get me focus on "feeling" more -- but mostly, that made me more upset because when I let myself feel more, I was only feeling more negative. So we then tried a compromise of "feel for a short period of time." So, I felt bad for a few minutes, then stopped. We eventually gave up on that direction as it wasn't making me feel better or bring any happier emotions forward. T seemed to think a much more effective approach would be learning how to accept who I was (i.e., someone with fairly subdued emotions), and manage whatever potential anger / frustration / sadness / whatever might be there about that. I'm wishing there were a better answer; I'm trying to learn as to whether or not there really is.

The question as to whether my coping skills are numbing me overall is an insightful one. I don't think so. Most of my coping is a combination of negating distortions, managing negative self-talk, deep breaths, attempts to better acknowledge which problems aren't really mine, and that sort of thing. They don't seem to be the sorts of techniques that would block positive feelings.

[sunrise]

Hi Bagels, welcome to PC. Your post is very interesting.

I do not agree that therapy is mostly about eliminating bad feelings. I think that is one style of therapy. The ones that use books such as "Feeling Good" handbook tend to be CBT. Many therapists do not use a CBT approach. Their therapy is not about eliminating bad feelings and thoughts. I have never worked on any of those topics with my therapist.

Originally Posted by Bagels

My therapist and I seem to have reached the conclusion that the above two issues are "who I am," and we should work on acceptance of that and how to improve my life with that knowledge.

This sounds kind of depressing to me. It seems like you yearn for more. I think there is more inside of you. I am not sure more CBT will help you find it, though.

Originally Posted by Bagels

It seems to me, based on experience now with multiple therapists, that therapy can't really "make positive stuff happen." The idea is to focus on removing negatives, looking at them more reasonably, and see what bubbles out. Is that accurate?

My therapy has not been like that. I say that mainly to give you hope there could be something else. Not all therapists take this approach. My therapist has been very positive and empowering. We never worked on removing negatives. It was more about releasing human potential, being all you can be, looking deep inside and finding what you want and need, and taking steps toward happiness (or whatever you want to call it)--we call it healing. I have shared many moments of joy with my therapist. It is sweet. Before I began therapy, I worked so hard to submerge my negative feelings (grief sorrow sadness), that I couldn't feel a thing. I had to let myself actually feel those negative feelings before I could move on to the positive. We never worked on "coping" with the negative feelings or "managing" them. We worked on my feeling them. With a lot of the negative released, I could begin to feel the positive too.

I am more enthusiastic about life now than I have been for many years. It is not just about uncovering positive emotions that may be lurking inside, but changing your life in ways that fulfill you and that bring you closer to happiness and what you truly want in life. There are different areas to do this in--family, friends, romance, career, art, spirituality, etc. You don't have to do all at once. (I decided I wanted to work on family and career.)

If you decide not to settle for accepting a life without positive, warm, and optimistic feelings, then you might consider a new T, even though your current T sounds like he has been very helpful. But you may have outgrown him, and need a different kind of therapy now. If you do seek out another therapist, I urge you to try someone really different. Someone who does not do CBT. (CBT was helpful to you, yes, but you're past that.) Someone who does not talk about replacing negative self-talk and identifying thought distortions and managing feelings. Look for someone with a therapeutic style deriving from the human potential movement. These are the humanistic psychotherapies, for example those originated by Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow, James Bugenthal, Rollo May, etc. There are modern descendants of this psychotherapy style.

Originally Posted by Bagels

Most of my coping is a combination of negating distortions, managing negative self-talk, deep breaths, attempts to better acknowledge which problems aren't really mine, and that sort of thing. They don't seem to be the sorts of techniques that would block positive feelings.

No, but those techniques don't sound like they would promote positive feelings either. They are all focused on the negative, not the positive. Just because you pull up all the weeds in your garden, it doesn't mean flowers will magically grow there, unless you plant the seeds.

Best of luck to you. Please post more. You are very thoughtful, and I don't want to see you give up on being all that you can.

[darkrunner]

Sunrise, Great post!

Bagels, you said:

We spent a while at one point trying to get me focus on "feeling" more -- but mostly, that made me more upset because when I let myself feel more, I was only feeling more negative. So we then tried a compromise of "feel for a short period of time." So, I felt bad for a few minutes, then stopped. We eventually gave up on that direction as it wasn't making me feel better or bring any happier emotions forward.

It sounds like you are able to feel, but only the negative feelings, is that correct? Is it possible that you have to feel all of the negative feelings before the positive ones can surface?

Kind of like, if you have a huge jar of pennies with a quarter at the bottom. You have to pour out all of the pennies before you can get the quarter out........

[WikidPissah]

wow...very interesting topic. I have one dx (schizophrenia) that is not curable with medication or therapy, but it is manageable with those things. I have fought hard to make that not-so, but frustration prevailed. I wonder if being told you have to accept not feeling strong positive emotions feels kind of frustrating like that.

I really hope that you do try an alternative therapy....turn over every rock and stone....I believe the folks on PC who say that there may be a way....so go find it. Best to you...keep us informed while you search.

[Suratji]

Bagels - believe the positive is there within you. Do not let the T tell you that that is just the way you are. Hogwash! Be patient and the cream will rise to the top. Have confidence.

[mixedup_emotions]

I agree that this is a very interesting post.

The first thing that came to me is maybe that you're trying too hard to push for something...and that the added pressure of it could be inhibiting you. I'd imagine that having some acceptance may allow you to someday be pleasantly surprised when things actually change and those rewarding emotions surface.

It'd be difficult for anybody to know what's within you. Perhaps accepting what "is" for "right now" will help you make more progress towards whatever needs to be addressed...thus paving the way to possibly something greater.

[skeksi]

I relate to what you describe, Bagels, and that numbness and diminished feelings for others is a big part of my life, too. For me personally, what your therapist says holds true, so my T and I work with me the way you describe.

But if this is not working for you (and it's frustrating you, so it's not), you have a right to try something different. Maybe you can raise it again with your T and ask for an outside consultation, a second opinion. If you want something different, you should seek it, if not from T then from someone else.

[Bagels]

Thanks, everyone, for all of your responses! This is a really supportive place; I'm glad I found it.

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do: maybe I'll try another therapist, or more likely I'll just take a whole break from the whole thing for a while and let things settle a bit. But your replies were really helpful: just seeing the different perspectives on whether or not this is "fixable" helped illustrate some of the challenges inherent here.

[sittingatwatersedge]

hi Bagels, welcome to PC.

What you say about not feeling BAD but maybe not feeilng sort of echoed in me.

I am not taking meds exactly but I did take SJW for about two years and was interested to find that I DID feel better; then I quit taking it for about 6 months and one day I just thought, ya know, I don't feel BAD, I just ..... hmmm.... like you. So I have started again and for me, it does seem to make a difference. Kind of like walking outside into a sunny morning, instaed of a dark, dreary one. hard to describe, but just a thought.
best to you