[SpiritRunner]

(sorry I am going to have 3 threads in a row here, but i thought i should just put this in its own thread)

So T said, no more hugs, or any physical contact. I said, forever and ever. She said yes.....This is why. It is because I have freely discussed my struggles with my sexual orientation/identity, which always felt so fluid to me. I have come to understand and accept that I am bi-sexual, more on the attracted to women side than the attracted to men side. I also have a huge attachment to T, a huge need for touch, for the hugs that I did not get, for the comfort I did not get as a child growing up in a dysfunctional home - for a long time, I thought that this was only a need for maternal affection/nurturing, and to an extent, it is. But I also had questions and confusion about my feelings toward my T, did I love her, did I just want her to be the affectionate mother I never had, or did I really have sexual feelings toward her or confusion about whether my feelings were sexual - yes to all. Many of you have seen the manic expression of my fantasies in 'that' thread!
Anyway, so last week I confessed all these things to her.....she talked to her supervisor about it. Her supervisor advised her to have no physical contact with me ever again, under the circumstances, taking into account my sexual issues, my strong feelings toward my T, and the fact that I am a borderline as well.....My T agreed with this insight and said that that is how it would be, forever after now.
She asked if I could tolerate it. I was feeling the world cave in on me, that awful feeling of losing my breath and about to black out. I said no, and hid my face from her in the pillow and began to shake; no tears. But she said, if you need to cry, cry. She said, you asked what I do if someone cries? I give them space and wait quietly or I cry with them.....and when she said that, her voice did break. She does care, I know she does, and she said it over and over again, said that the trust and rapport we have built are strong enough now to take this.
I know she cares, and I know her reasons are valid, but this does feel like a huge rupture to me, a huge wound in my trust. My trust has been shaken...
Partly I feel like this, that I told the truth, and am paying the consequences. I also feel like my fears of a woman knowing this deep, dark secret part of me, that I felt like I was gay, and pushing me away, came true - I always had this fear of having women friends too close because I knew this was in me. Those are both like a distortion, I know it, and she told me that - yet can I not have my feelings validated here!?! Because in a sense, it's true....I am paying this price for being utterly honest with her.
What else could she do? Well, she could have kept hugging me, left the door open for hugs in the future......but as much as it sucks, she did the ethical thing, and probably the right thing for me, too, because I need to learn how to feel comfort without having touch....like this that I posted not so long ago - 'You know what, this is making me think too, about this want that I have for comfort....maybe I am simply letting that want distract me or be a deliberate obstacle in front of the tears so that I don't have to let them come....Like your thought - I know I won't be held if I cry, so no comfort, so why go there. I have touch/comfort and tears all entwined. I need to separate out the want for touch/comfort from the tears, and learn how to just be with the tears, to let them come, touch or no touch' - I told her about this, and said, maybe I just have to learn to do without the touch here.....and she said, yes. So, it is what is....I accept that, but not without it coming at a great cost, this pain, this huge wound.
Thank you all for caring and for being gentle with me in this hurt.....

[pegasus]

I'm so proud of you! You have used your adult logical part to think this through. Yes it hurts the child part very much but you'll realize more and more over time how that nurturing and comfort can come from within. That is to say that your own adult part of you will care for the part of you that needs love and care. It takes time but that is what therapy and healing is all about.

Here's a safe cyber hug! ((((((((((( poetgirl ))))))))))))

[with or without you]

I'm really sorry to hear this. I'll send you a PM, there's some stuff I want to tell you that's personal to me which I don't want to bring into this thread.

[granite1]

PG well writteni can just feel the pain oozing.and i am so sorry these boundries heve been put on you.do you really feel it is for the best?i was just wondering because you are so hurt by it.i felt this way when T said no e mails.it was like T built an inpenitrable brick wall and just cut off all communication .not to helpfull.i hope you will talk with her more about it unless you really feel it is for the best because hugging is causing more confusion than comfort.sorry if this isnt helpfull.touch has never been a real issue in my T i dont touch and this T seems ok with it .she moved clost to me once and i kind of freaked and she knows it isnt ok.

Dearest poetgirl

I'm so terribly sorry you are hurting so badly. I want to give you a thousand hugs

I know the pain and the cost of letting people know this side of us. And I'd like to sit quietly with you now and just acknowledge that the pain and the cost and the wound are deep for you right now.

We see and welcome all of you. We know you are the same person you were before you told your T about your sexuality, and we love you just the same.

No pushing away. Just all my love, and the prayer for some comfort for you right now...

[Suratji]

PG - what a blow! Logical or not, it seems like a huge betrayal to finally tell the truth and then experience the repercussion that you feared.

I guess, though, if you got sexually aroused by her hugs, then, definitely the T needs to create a physical distance. Of course, that's the ethical thing for her to do. But still, how painful.

I feel for you. It's great that you can think it through but from my experience that really hardly helps the emotional turmoil

[karebear1]

I'm sorry Poetgirl. I'm sure this will be a real struggle for you. I know it would be for me. I wish you the best in working through this.

(((((((((((PG))))))))))))

Wow. I am sooooooo sorry

When I told T that I was questioning my feelings for him (whether or not they might be sexual), I expected him to move his chair farther away from me or something, but he didn't. And when I asked if we would still hug, he said "yes". Our hugs aren't sexual at all...they are comforting, and connecting. It would have felt awful if T decided that we couldn't hug anymore.

Keep talking to your T about how you feel. Not because she might change her boundaries, but because you deserve to feel how you feel and to process it and to be supported. My T has boundaries that he will never change, but that doesn't mean that I don't get to have feelings about them.

My heart goes out to you. Sending tons of safe hugs.

[ECHOES]

Poetgirl, this sounds so incredibly painful! I'm so sorry and I'm sending you many if that's okay.

[missbelle]

thats always an issue..the hugging etc.......we need hugs but sometimes they can mean something else...When I worked for the State, I wanted to hug my clients but I couldn't really.....It was not stated not to touch them but some people would see more into it then it was meant. That ruins things for people like you, and me who just enjoy the physical touch and closeness. You can't win sometimes.

I know the supervisor was just trying to protect all concerned but I know it hurt.
Sorry for that!!!
Here is my cyber-hug as well

[maggyjo]

So sorry!

Wow I just don't get it. I have heard male therapist hug female clients, so why would this be any different??

anyways sorry this must be realy hard for you.

Maggy

[SpiritRunner]

Thank you so much! I needed your support so much today. In the back of my mind, I knew a day like this was coming and knew it would be crushing pain and it is. But the support system I have in place now, here and in RL, is making it possible for me to endure this AND stay safe.
Pegasus - I appreciate what you wrote so much. Yes, therapy is about the adult part learning to soothe the child part, and I need to learn this. And it will be easier to learn this without relying on T's hugs.....though it was necessary and right, I think, to have them for the time I did.
Granite - thank you so much. Yes, it probably is for the best, though it hurts so much. I think I will see it clearer down the road than I do now, but yes, I think it is for the best, no matter how painful. I know you can relate to this pain with your email situation. You are a good example to me here - you have gone back to that T and are working things through. I can too!
Suratji - yes it does feel like a huge betrayal, it really does, and I think that that is a valid feeling (even if the thought is a distortion!). No, I didn't exactly have a sexual reaction when she hugged me - those thoughts came outside of therapy and were mostly confined to the highly manic period I just had! Which she acknowledged she had considered...
Improving - thank you beyond words for the deep understanding I know you have and for your love and acceptance and validation.
karebear and ECHOES, thank you too for your hugs and support.
treehouse - I'm so glad you could be open with your T and he didn't take away hugs! Last week, t told me about a male client she had once whom she had to stop hugging because he couldn't get past his attraction to her.....but she said she wouldn't stop hugging me. I thought she wouldn't want to anymore, but she said she would, and would tell me if she didn't - I was so relieved I wasn't losing the hug, because it wasn't sexual in its reality, it was so grounding and comforting. And now that is gone.....sorry, I'm crying now. It hurts so much.
missbelle - yes, it stinks, it does ruin things! I know T's supervisor was being ethical too, and advising my T in light of that - nonetheless, I am somewhat angry too that someone I have never seen, not nameless but faceless to me and I to her, has led my T to make a decision that has such impact on me. But that too is what it is.....
I am doing the best I can.....a moment at a time. It will be better tomorrow, and at least I do not have to see T for a whole week. I think I am cured of wanting to see her so much right now anyway.....I am sort of feeling like part of my attachment has been uprooted....

[Suratji]

So, even when you told her that you didn't have a sexual reaction while hugging, STILL that didn't make a difference? So, is your T new to the profession? Is that why she has a supervisor? Does she have to do what supervisor tells her to do? Wow, I would consider revisiting this issue with her.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by Suratji

So, even when you told her that you didn't have a sexual reaction while hugging, STILL that didn't make a difference? So, is your T new to the profession? Is that why she has a supervisor? Does she have to do what supervisor tells her to do? Wow, I would consider revisiting this issue with her.

She has been in practice for 16 years or so.....as far as why she has a supervisor, I just assumed it's a good idea for a T in private practice to have someone that she can consult in difficult situations - and for my T, this qualified. I think she felt obligated to agree with her supervisor, but I think that this was also her choice. She is a strong-minded person and I don't think she bends her will to others if she doesn't agree or to please them, so I think that this was HER mind and HER will, in the end.
Does it matter I didn't really react sexually to her hugs? Maybe, maybe not. Given the intensity of my attachment and the complex depth of my feelings toward (and given that there WAS a sexual element present in my thoughts away from session) I think she simply agreed with her supervisor that it was best to not hug me anymore, because it did nothing to assuage those feelings. This way, I can step back from that intensity, maybe the intensity will ease, the complexity simplify.....I think that is her point in this. I see the wisdom in it really, even if the pain is blinding me from fully believing it right now.....

[Liam Grey]

I'm really sorry... it must feel awful , even if maybe was the right thing to do. But rarely the right thing to do on the long run is the one that makes us happy immediately.. especially on therapy, right..?

I must say that I don't like that "never again" affirmation... maybe she should have left some room for a future rethink... but maybe it's just me, I'm scared as hell from definitive decisions of any kind.

Anyway... congrats on keeping your cool like this, you were really really mature, I personally don't know how would I take something similar in your situation.

[BlackCanary]

This sounds intensely painful.
And unfair.
Feels like she made it about her, what she must do to feel ethical and safe.
Your feelings for the T are an opportunity to dig and figure out what is going on, hope your T will rise to the occasion and help you excavate.
Intense feelings, erotic feelings, are well within the range of typical things in therapy with someone who's been abused.
hug from me to you at least 10 seconds long!

[WePow]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((poetgirl)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I am sorry that honesty had this result for you. Ugggs! It stinks and I think it is not a good choice she made as a T... but I am not a T and she knows you far better than I do.

Allow yourself to feel the loss. And respect yourself for being honest. You did something very brave. BIG BIG hugs all for you!!!!!!

[Suratji]

PG - your story probably has put fear in many of us. Why should we risk what you did? Your bravery is awesome but what a price you've had to pay. It's made me think twice about too much disclosure.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by Suratji

PG - your story probably has put fear in many of us. Why should we risk what you did? Your bravery is awesome but what a price you've had to pay. It's made me think twice about too much disclosure.

Please, no one be afraid of being honest....even if it does come at a cost! Even if my story is scary to some, please don't hold back from being as honest and transparent as possible. What I want my story to say is that it is possible to accept the cost of honesty even if it is painful and it is good to accept it even if it is painful.....and that there is healing in accepting that some things cannot be in life or in therapy, that some things have to be accepted in life as well as in therapy. I want it also to say that it is possible to keep trusting even when there has been great hurt, too, because I intend to keep trusting her. Yes, trust has been shaken but it has NOT fallen off its foundation; it can be repaired. Did she hurt me? Yes. Did she want to? No. And really it is my choice to stay in this place of hurt or move on to a place of healing - I can choose that. I choose the place of healing. I want to! It will be worth the pain in the end if I can find healing....and that I know she wants to help me find.
So please keep being honest!
No, I do not like the 'not ever' part either, and I asked, well, really begged for there to be some sort of compromise because it 'would be comforting' I said.....she said there wouldn't be value in doing that just to be comforting. No, I do not think it's fair to simply say 'not ever'......mainly because the sexual feelings/thoughts were passing as the mania passed and I didn't want to hold on to them. I am NOT attracted to her.....just was deeply attached and also struggling to come to terms with my sexual identity and my need for maternal comfort. I knew she couldn't meet my needs, I knew no one can really fill the hole caused by not having those needs met in their time as a child. I didn't expect her to. But the hugs meant a lot nonetheless, a token of her care that I did need, because I need touch, safe touch.....that was a legitimate need and she did help me so much in giving me that for a while, anyway. So I can be glad for what I did get....and what I can still get. Because she took away the hugs, doesn't mean she took away the care (and because she made it clear that she cares about ALL her clients and prays for them doesn't make that care for me less either!)
Thanks again so much for the support....I am so grateful for understanding and care you have each given!

[In_Doubt]

Wow! A lot of issues here.
1. " . . . 'You know what, this is making me think too, about this want that I have for comfort . . ." Congrats! Getting through a problem requires recognizing it, not denying it. I'm thinking alcoholism for example.
2." . . . Partly I feel like this, that I told the truth, and am paying the consequences . . ." Haven't we all felt that way some times? Yes. I guess it goes without saying T's are people with careers and life outside ourselves. They ain't here to sacrafice that for us.
Sorry, for your pain but I think it will prove worthwhile in the long run.

[with or without you]

Originally Posted by poetgirl76

Because she took away the hugs, doesn't mean she took away the care (and because she made it clear that she cares about ALL her clients and prays for them doesn't make that care for me less either!)

Wow, that's really nice that she does pray for you guys AND that she told you so. I used to pray for my T all the time...I've gone "off" God as of late but that's really meaningful. I hope you're able to hold onto that even though things are really difficult right now.

[rainbow8]

((((((poetgirl))))))

I'm sorry that your T made that decision but I know she is doing what she and her supervisor feel is best for you. My former T told me that hugs wouldn't be good for me, probably for similar reasons, having BPD and attachment problems.

Your situation is making me think. I'm attached to my T but hugging doesn't feel sexual. Connecting in an emotional way is what feels that way to me, like the way I felt after last week's session. So does that mean I should quit therapy? Maybe. My T and I talked about my sexual reactions today. She would rather I find emotional and physical intimacy with my husband, of course.

I don't know. Your T makes sense but an alternative method would be to work with the issue instead. I still had the feelings for my previous Ts who didn't touch me. With this T, I can work on identifying the parts that want maternal love vs the parts that want sexual love.

I know it was hard for you to be honest with your T. I also think you need to talk more with her about this decision, not to change it, but to come to terms with it. Your T sounds like she's very compassionate and will "hug" you with her words and voice which can be just as soothing if not more so. But it's still painful because she took something away. I hated when my T took away responding to all of my emails. It hurt badly, but she did it out of caring for me, just like your T is doing it out of caring for you.

[sunrise]

(((((poetgirl))))) Ouch ouch ouch. I'm so sorry, poetgirl. When they change the boundaries like that it hurts like h*ll. One's footing feels like quicksand, no step secure....

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

((((((poetgirl))))))

I'm sorry that your T made that decision but I know she is doing what she and her supervisor feel is best for you. My former T told me that hugs wouldn't be good for me, probably for similar reasons, having BPD and attachment problems.

Your situation is making me think. I'm attached to my T but hugging doesn't feel sexual. Connecting in an emotional way is what feels that way to me, like the way I felt after last week's session. So does that mean I should quit therapy? Maybe. My T and I talked about my sexual reactions today. She would rather I find emotional and physical intimacy with my husband, of course.

I don't know. Your T makes sense but an alternative method would be to work with the issue instead. I still had the feelings for my previous Ts who didn't touch me. With this T, I can work on identifying the parts that want maternal love vs the parts that want sexual love.

I know it was hard for you to be honest with your T. I also think you need to talk more with her about this decision, not to change it, but to come to terms with it. Your T sounds like she's very compassionate and will "hug" you with her words and voice which can be just as soothing if not more so. But it's still painful because she took something away. I hated when my T took away responding to all of my emails. It hurt badly, but she did it out of caring for me, just like your T is doing it out of caring for you.

You're right, she is compassionate and I know this was done out of caring. But it is painful because something very precious to me is gone, something I valued so much. But I love what you say about 'hugging with her words or voice'. That I think she will do......and I need her to do that. And maybe it will be that that will end up meaning more than the physical hugs.....and help me deal with the issues I have with emotional intimacy and intensity better.
But I can't help but wish that the 'never, ever again' had some small hope of at least a goodbye hug at the final session! What could it hurt then.....
Well, I guess the lesson of this is already working, because I can imagine a goodbye and moving on without looking back whereas that was too hard/painful to imagine before.....maybe there has been some effect to ratchet down the intensity of the attachment already (unless this is just emotional shock, which I am not discounting.....numbness is part of grief, isn't it?)

[Sweetlove]

I'm so sorry Poetgirl, I've never had hugs with my T, but I've always wanted them. I can imagine how painful it would be to have that taken away.

You are being extremely logical and insightful about this though. You understand why she made the decision she did. However, I do hope you continue to talk to her about this because it is a big loss and might affect the relationship.

Take care of yourself