finally talked to t about Next top model thing

I had some posts a while ago where I said my t suggested I watch Next Top Model. And he kept bringing up the topic of my appearance, and whether I'm comfortable with it.

I finally asked what I wanted to ask him- what he thinks about feminist ideas about appearance. It helped a lot to hear he agrees with my feminist ideas a lot more than I thought. He also apologized if I was upset by his suggestion. He agreed that there are sexist aspects to the show. I never actually watched it. But the name of the show and the topic of judging women by their appearance bothered me, even though I understand it's also about helping women accept themselves and I told him that. It wouldn't bother me if my girlfriends were watching it or something, but it bothered me that a therapist would suggest it.

I said it's okay when he apologized and I said it didn't bother me that much. Something about the session today didn't feel very good, I'm not sure what. But I do feel a lot better knowing he shares my values about this.

Glad you got some answers for the mystery and that his thoughts weren't too far off base. I totally get the weird feeling after some sessions- like something's wrong but you can't put your finger on it.

Yeah that makes sense (to me at least) to still feel weird about it. Did he talk about the original confidence stuff at all? Like why he would care about looks as a T?

I think the show is more about the interactions between the girls and the mentors (Ts?), trying to succeed at something you really want, being present in the moment, not letting past mistakes inhibit you - all very relevant to therapy! Wow, so it isn't just a guilty pleasure! Tyra is very much about helping young people. Then the actual modeling part is really just seeing them create and critique art.

yeah, Tyra despite her craziness is a great person and ANTM is about appreciating different kinds of beauty. Tyra stresses this a lot.

I love the show... and I am a feminist as well. But I am glitter drenched feminist in pink... because you know, you can look good and still be feminist. It depends on you. If you don't care about looks and are happy with it... that fine. However, if you feel low confidence with the way you look.... maybe changing it up on the outside can help. A lot. And it does not make you any less of strong woman. It makes you a strong woman who looks damn good

Hey, I haven't been posting on here for a long time, but I've been lurking and I just had to comment on this.

I would hate.....hate!......if a therapist suggested anything to do with ANTM. Male or female, but especially male.

Ironically, I don't hate the show entertainment wise, but I watch in car-wreck fashion, like I can't look away.

Just my personal opinion-I think Tyra Banks is a narcissist. I think they treat the aspiring models so badly that it gets to a comical point often. They do not allow for any contestant to have a voice. And it is completely sexiest. The entire modeling profession is and that show only very superficially tries to pretend it is about something more than treating pretty girls like crap, feeding some weird societal urge to watch pretty girls suffer.

So yeah, I think a therapist that finds any value in that show would leave me feeling bad, too, as a woman. For the roller coaster ride that I'm on with my T, that is one thing I don't worry about with him. He definitely has feminist leanings and I'm very cool with that.

Yeah I don't see what value the show could even have aside from this. There are plenty of powerful women who make better role models than Tyra Banks. Your therapist is freaking crazy to bring this up. I'm sorry.

I think I watched the show once. I just can't get past anything to do with that awful industry. Ick..

I would have completely flipped if a T had suggested that show to me. I'd have stormed out, and written a letter of complaint to whoever employed him. It's completely inappropriate to push an idea of "beauty" on anyone. If you're someone who wants to paint themselves and dye their hair, and parade around in high heels and allegedly "sexy" clothes, then fine. I sometimes like high heels myself, but I wear no make up, never had my hair dyed, and dress in what's comfortable. I can dress up for a special occasion, but that's it.

Personally, I find his suggestion wholly inappropriate... I'd be totally floored with rage if anyone in a professional capacity mentioned it to me.

I don't think trying to make physical changes is a possible way for a lot of women to feel great about ourselves since it isn't possible to conform to expected standards. A lot of us have various skin problems that can't be corrected, frizzy hair, thin hair, crooked noses, odd shaped faces, physical disabilities, disproportionate figures no matter how great shape you're in, all kinds of stuff that can't be corrected, maybe unless one is talking about extremes like risking your health for plastic surgery. Besides that, it's not fair to have pressure to conform to look "good" because it takes a lot of time out of your life, altogether, to do makeup, style hair, shop for all that stuff, etc. It's not fair that there's so much pressure from popular media but it's especially not fair if it's from therapists.

Thanks for understanding that I feel weird, even though I'm not totally sure what I feel weird about. Not exactly sure what you meant by original confidence stuff. He said society sends all kinds of messages to women about how we're supposed to be and he worries about that with his daughters.

Originally I asked him what he thinks about feminist ideas about appearance. He asked me for clarification, like I guessed he might, and I said I just wondered anything he thinks about feminist ideas about appearance. He thought for a minute and laughed a little and said that the most dangerous thing he ever did was to say in a group setting that he was a feminist. The women told him he wasn't. He didn't explain why they said that. He said then he thought that he has feminist ideas but the ideas he grew up with weren't very healthy or feminist. He said he thinks society objectifies all women, which I understand to mean that all women are judged by what we look like at least sometimes, and I agree it's true.
He said he likes to have those things out there, meaning to talk about physical appearance and how the messages you've gotten affect you. I agree with that except he left out the part about it being sexist when he first brought it up in a previous session, which is a problem, because he would have left me to assume he believes sexism is okay if I hadn't brought it up. I can forgive him for that since he said sorry about it. Later he asked why I asked him the question about this. I said I wondered IF he thinks about feminism. He said, yes, all the time. That made me feel better about where he's coming from even though I don't think he did a good job of expressing where he was coming from in the first place.

I still feel hesitant about whether I can trust his values on other topics, like the problem with my friend who is being judged unfairly because she's of a minority group, I think. So I haven't talked to him about that much in a while.

All opinions appreciated... gah, I might have to try to find the darn thing online... if it's as bad as you all are saying maybe I need to know. Considering I'm upset by the title and the topic without even seeing it... maybe I don't want to know? Do you think I can tell T that by popular consensus on PC, that show is really bad

I don't think feminism should tell women what to do one way or another. If women like conforming to what is considered good looking, or if they naturally do, it should be up to them to do what they want. It's not really possible for most women to approach looking like a model though.

I'm really intrigued with your situation because I think I would feel the same way as you do so I went back and read some of your earlier posts on it.

I think you may have more to discuss here with your T. While he may or may not have problematic views, I think it is important to clarify how you are feeling with all his appearance talk. Does he normally lead you to different topics? I ask because my T is so adverse to leading me anywhere and rarely asks an even slightly off-topic question. That presents its own problems(but that's beside the point!) Your first conversation about this seemed like he interjected it and he is saying in your last conversation that he likes to do that, put it out there to talk about whether the client brings it up or not because of his own views on the topic and its importance. And I definitely agree that would be annoying from a therapist but it also sounds like genuine concern and like he is coming from a place of good intentions. Especially because he mentioned his daughters in the same sentence. He also pointed out his own trials in this area, with his upbringing and his efforts toward feminist viewpoints that were rebuffed.

Still...

If you are uncomfortable with the talk or want to emphasize how it feels to you, then it seems like you should go there again with him until you feel better about both this situation and the one with your friend.

Just the other day I had it out with my T over some feelings I had that he is too elitist to understand my life and he seems to naturally take the side of the "haves" of the world rather than the "have nots" like me. Honestly, he did not get what I was saying at all until I paired it down to: I want you on MY side. Then he told me he liked that I asked for what I wanted and it was helpful, too. I think the message here that I'm trying to share is that he might need to know what is an isn't okay with you, i.e not understanding clearly your view and supporting it within YOUR therapy.

Yeah, ideally, he would think just like you on this important topic. However, it may be liveable to show him that you aren't interested in debating this one or you want to try to get closer to a mutual understanding and your therapy should be coming from a place that supports your ideals. Hmmm, this is hard to make my point here...like my T is still an elitist with a cushy life, right? However, now he knows I don't want him defending the other elitists of the world with whom I interact, but to reach and support ME. So maybe your T could try coming from a place that says, "It is important to my client that she focuses on stuff other than her appearance. In fact, it is an area of strength for her and I am going to respect that." Or whatever the crux of what you want is. Even if he sees it like you have issues to explore there or every woman needs to talk about this aspect of life or whatever he thinks.

Funny coincidence, at my last session we had a conversation about who brings up the topics, disconnected from the appearance talk. T is an extrovert and I'm not, which helps keep conversation going, but I wish he'd slow down and let me think sometimes. He did a long pause at one point, which he's never done before. I brought up how with other t's I got used to bringing up topics and I got so I like doing it. He asked what are the advantages and disadvantages of that. I said if I bring them up, they're more relevant to what's going on, and he agreed. And the disadvantage is sometimes I want help, or something like that.

Now I'm curious what your conversation about elitists was about, if you want to share. That's great your t finally got it. I was/am afraid it's asking t to much to understand my values related to my friend. It's a situation where I felt vulnerable so I've just mostly stopped talking to him about it. I don't want his views to influence me atm. Soon I'll know if the situation is resolved or escalated and go from there.

I'm not sure what else to tell my t about the sexism and appearance thing. Maybe I told him enough. I explained how it makes me angry that I'm expected to spend time in front of the mirror and men can usually just shower and go; that I can't wait until the day it's acceptable for women to have crew cuts, etc. He said maybe you can start a trend. I said I'm planning to do that when I turn 70. He said maybe next time we can talk about ideas pushed onto women about being thin. So he's still pushing me on the appearance topic. I struggle with overeating, even though I'm pretty thin... idk if I want to go there with him or not.

Just out of curiosity- I don't want to intrude at all but why do you like this T? I mean you seem so determined and together about certain stuff, learning, that I have to wonder why this guys opinion even MATTERS....

Full disclosure, I have been through crappy therapy & believe everyone has something redeeming to offer. This T just sounds so so so clueless my blood pressure literally goes up every time I read another post about what he said.

thanks for saying I sound together about some stuff lyib. I guess I've had decent social support in the feminism area so I'm more confident about it than some things. I like this t cuz he's emotionally expressive and talkative enough to draw me out. Other t's seem to just be saying nice, kind of predictable, supportive things all the time, with no other point. Hearing nice things helps some, but they never give me any ideas what I could do to feel better.

My first thought is that I would be put-off by how the crew cut talk that was going to a good place ended up with the pressure on women to be thin. It does seem like he is pushing in a direction that you are resisting and he's pretty persistent with it. That would mess with me a little and piss me off if I was in your shoes.

There is a tricky balance with leading vs. probing. I feel like I am on the other end of the spectrum and my T has been very consistent in this realm; he never leads. It is a BIG deal if he brings something up and he does it so long after the fact that is hardly intrusive.

About the elitism-it gets kind of complicated because I actually work with his wife, who is one of the Big Bosses. What I'm bothered by at my job, this environment of the important people and their "servants"(me), truly has nothing to do with her personally. My interaction with her is minimal because I'm quite low on the totem pole. Also, I suspect it is low because he broke my confidentiality...I have no proof and I could go on a very long tangent with that one. It is just this feeling I get because she seems avoidant of me. Anyway, I feel lousy all the time at work because it is not a fun environment and I'm overeducated for the job and it is just a bad situation that I have to deal with right now.

Like you were saying, I am confident in this area(my work abilities in general) like you are confident in your feminist beliefs. Still, I'm faced on a daily basis with challenges to this confidence and I'm getting farther and farther away from a time when I felt really important at a job or had a higher purpose in my job. So I want his support and instead he is always defending the powerful people, i.e. his wife's colleagues, his peers. It isn't personal at all and it isn't about any of these people he knows as individuals; it is the whole environment/system that makes me feel like crap. I do think he is influenced by knowing these people that's why he ends up out-n-out not supporting me under the guise of being neutral. But it sucks big time to be surrounded by wealthy people, many of whom are lazy and barely work but get all sorts of privileges(not his wife--she works very hard--others) while I need to clock my time and be available for their every want and need, etc, only to have them often be snide and snooty with me and my co-workers. I just want him to say, "Yeah, you know, that must really feel bad." Not, "Well, did you ever consider that they(the elitists) don't have the best people skills because of x, y, and z?" Or "Why don't you put yourself out there more?"

And like you being reluctant to bring up the situation about your friend, I wanted to clear this working situation up before I went on to more vulnerable topics(like my difficulties in relationships) because I'm not as confident in those areas and I don't want to end up confused.

Enough about me---I understand what you are saying about not wanting to go any further into it with the appearance stuff. You definitely want to be more comfortable before you go near a more sensitive topic. And you know, if you don't really want to talk about it, then you don't have to. I did want to move onto my relationship woes so I had to tackle my discomfort with my T's lack of support/encouragement/validation or else I would be stuck. It sounds like this body image thing is something your T is pushing rather than something that is weighing on your mind(no pun intended!)

Just please don't make a decision about this grounded in low self esteem or self doubt. Your therapist sounds super duper controlling. Stay with him if you have a vision of this therapy helping in specific ways-- like there are good things about your interactions that make you feel good or inspired or hopeful. Otherwise, no! No more of this therapist, please!!!

Maybe this? Because I thought it did bother you quite a bit...

Btw I didn't mean to say low self esteem.... I meant like somehow when someone is pushing you, you can be like, "wow maybe there's something to this." And then afterwards it's like... wow, that was crazy! That person was crazy! I don't know why I got so worked up over it.

I meant to respond to these posts before but it has been a busy week

Thanks for sharing Symbiosis. I'm glad your therapist eventually got it- it sounds like a complicated thing to get across if he didn't get it on his own in the first place. I did actually have some issues about eating that I knew about before I started therapy. I didn't think I'd be able to talk to this t about it since he's male, so it could be a good thing he's bringing it up. I'm not sure if I'm ready to trust him enough to talk about it yet or not.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind. And no need to apologize for saying low self esteen

I was wondering if someone was going to call me on this, considering I've only been going on about it on PC for, what, months? .

But I meant that it didn't bother me as much as some things would have bothered me, since I'm more confident about my feminist beliefs about body image than I am about where I stand on some other issues. It bothered me because I didn't know if I could trust his values not to contradict mine, and that was upsetting because he was helpful before. As far as hurting my feelings about body image, it wasn't terrible.

Ok sry again I don't mean to be all

Was thinking of your thread earlier this week, reading this book called "The Female Brain." It is basically this book where the author (a doctor) argues that women genetically want to be pretty and advertise their fertility, and their psychology is organized around that. Let me tell you that stuff can mess with your head. We're all just humans. I am surprised T's more than anyone don't get that.