Awareness

I know you say that you aren't interested any longer, but I think this is a very important issue.

I would contend that you are very well aware of the some of the emotional symptoms of what you are feeling (anger, etc..) but I think these are just symptoms of a deeper emotion that you are trying to avoid.

For instance, the desire to harm a pet may stem from a point when you felt totally powerless against another all powerful adult. This adult abused that power in some way. You act to abuse the pet in order to master and conquer that powerlessness. It may be an attempt to say "look I am not powerless at all".

Perhaps you hate the feeling of vulnerability and manifest that hatred on people/things that are vulnerable

Usually at the root of a lot of actions is fear. Fear just about trumps everything else because it is so ingrained in us to flee, or profoundly react to situations that make us afraid or threatened (duh!).

If you think you lack the insight into understanding your behaviour, then it may be easier to understand the actions of some one else.

If some one else were reacting in manner Y to stimulus X, then how could I account for their behaviour?

Hiya Blur,

Thanks for your reply. I think I've heard of some of those groups going all around my area and nearby. I could check it out. It would definitely be interesting. I will look into it.

Ohh I wasn't aware that that is what free association entailed. I just thought it was something along the lines of "say what comes into your head first" or something like that. The question I have for that is, how do you actually know if it fits or not? I can't tell one from the other - they are all just as likely as eachother. That is why psychotherapy didn't work for me. In my opinion, it's not a matter of me just choosing one that I like and deciding that is how it is for me. What I'm wanting to know is what it REALLY is for me. I could decide that my dad was a horrible horrible man and was satan spawn but in reality that is not true, and then I look like an idiot (not to mention being deluded, and I would treat him like crap even though he doesn't deserve it). I can't just make up my internal processes, I want to know what they really are. I could be misinterpreting what you are saying though. None of this is very logical so none of it really computes for me. Its like speaking Spanish, and I don't know a word of Spanish!

No, it's just that I had one of those "putting your foot down" moments today. Just the same as the ones I had where i turned off my emotions etc.

I used to be a really strong person, I didn't give a damn about any of these emotional wishy washy things, I had better things to do than worry about emotional stuff. I used to be AWESOME at my job because I didn't take any crap from anyone, and I was brutally honest, and I did a damn good job. I didn't muck around, and I was the most well-grounded, realistic person ever because of my rationality and logical thinking. I was ethical, professional, the lot. I had a great reputation (it was in the health sector too ironically) and as a result I made a lot of money, and the clients had a lot of faith in me, and I really helped them. They were very high needs clients (who were often violent off premises) and they respected me and kept coming back to me. A lot of them even trusted me. I was good. I had my breakdown (they think it was because I was too busy helping other people to stop myself from thinking about my own issues but I beg to differ).

Now, with all these emotional "mysteries", I am a snivelling mess. I cannot even shower myself. I cannot wash my clothes, etc and if my housemate did not cook I would just eat junk. I am really fed up with people encouraging me (and I'm not talking about you guys, I'm talking about the health professionals I have had in real life) to ask all these questions about myself, and when I ask them to be a bit more specific they either deflect the question onto me or give me the cop out "What do YOU think...(repeat the question back to me in different words)" answer. It's like they tell me I need to acquire a book that I have never heard of before, and they can't even tell me the author of the book or the name of the book. And they say "Only YOU know what the book is called and who it is written by". So in other words, they are telling me they have no idea what they are talking about. And when I ask for something that is a bit less general (eg is it hardcover or paperback?) they get snippy and suddenly I am being "difficult". If I had done this to any of my clients when I was working, they would have punched me, and I'm not joking.

I came to many psychology forums to find out about this mystical and magical "book" but I get all the same answers. And the same snippy replies when I ask for a general direction to look or is it hardcover or soft cover? is it still in print? Any clues whatsoever? No, I'm being difficult. This site has by far been the best - you guys haven't gotten snippy which is good. All I want is a general direction or even a continent to where this "book" may exist. Nobody has a clue about this mystical book, even though every single person has it sitting at home on their bookshelf. Where did they get it? Nobody knows. Yet everyone is saying "oh its a great book, if you read it your life will dramatically change for the better".

So my foot down moment was this: Why am I even bothering to go on this wild goose chase for a book that might not even exist? The book sucks anyway. It must do, if everyone has forgotten that they even own it.

I want to be strong again, like I used to be. Yes I used to be very depressed but at least I could get my butt out the door to work for 40 hours a week and be able to pay my bills. At least I could shower, and have clean clothes. I thought I was at rock bottom then, but it has gotten about 400 times worse since then - back then I had it GOOD. And I didn't have to lie about my life to my parents. And I could pass as "normal". And I didn't have to lie when someone asks about me or my life. I hate lying with a passion. But if anyone heard about my life, I would just shrivel up and die of humiliation right there on the spot. Well, I do tell health professionals about it so they can help me, but other than that, not a soul.

I don't want to live like this anymore. Chasing a dragon that may or may not even exist, that nobody knows anything about, and basing my recovery on that alone. Its crazy. If I could just cut the crap and harden the hell up, I might be able to get back to how I used to be. My life is a crazy train and I want to get off at the next stop. I need to harden the hell up so I can go back to work, learn to shower again, etc. The psychiatrist in the psych ward told me after my breakdown "You don't have depression, You have a bad attitude" and I think he was right on the money. So I am going to change my attitude - back to how it was before the breakdown. That attitude got me VERY far.

PS: Sorry Liam Grey, this post wasn't directed at you, its just sort of directed at anyone who cares really.

Hiya Elliemay,

Ty for your reply!

That is a good idea, to think of it like that. I could think of 100 things that another person in my position may be thinking/feeling. But the thing is there are no aha moments for any of them. So how do you know which one is the appropriate one for you? This is what nobody seems to know. The one you mentioned makes logical sense, but so do the other 99 possibilities on the list. This is what I mean. And I don't think me just picking a random one and going with it is going to help me in terms of recovering, because it might be completely off the mark.

Hiya Echoes,

Yeah that is exactly what I need - the connection with X. Yes I did psychotherapy (I'm not sure which of the two pyscho-xxxx ones it was) for 2.5 years. No luck. She did try to "bring things to the surface" but because nothing came up, she sort of exhausted all her options and then I had to stop going. I think we were both frustrated and gave up at the end haha.. oh well. that is life!

Yes! I told my therapist that when THEY are in their training analysis, it's like an open book test, but for us, it's like a game of Pin the Tail on the Donkey, but not only are we blindfolded, we don't even know for sure if the donkey is in the room or still folded up in a box somewhere. So I didn't want him to give me that "I went thru this TOO, you know."

Funny you should use a book metaphor, because I literally googled my way through my past 4 years of therapy, through the Amazon and the NIMH DB, Qwestia and (all!) the Journals.

My first session with my current T, I asked him for a hug. Then I googled how hugs healed, because I had read once that people need 12 hugs a day for optimal growth. That led me to probably Wallin's Attachment book, which choice others here have since validated. A magazine writer (& now novelist) I like says her therapist advised her to have her husband just hold her for one hour every day - hugs. I hated when my t's would hug me for the FIRST time when they were seeing me for the LAST time - what the heck was that?
Yesterday, our hug was different, but I don't think there's a book for it (minds out of the gutter, please!). I am starting to RESPECT someone for the first time in my life. He did not understand at first how huge this is, even though I warned him, "Don't take this the wrong way, but...!"

Hiya Hankster,

Jeese ALL the journals woah! That is dedication, nice! Ive read a lot but I can't stand reading those study ones - you know the ones with all the numbers, where they compare the two samples of the population, both with different treatment, to see how their recovery compares at the end, numberswise. I don't know why - its just a bit too dry to read, hehe. And its kinda quanititative rather than qualitative so you don't really know if the end result was accurate when you compare it to another study someone else has done (human error, different criteria for selecting participants, etc).

But I used to love going into the library when I was at uni (it was a health sciences campus) and they had these reeeeally old books about psychotherapy (and other therapies) from decades ago, and they tried these weird and whacky methods to treat different mental illnesses like schizophrenia. Not sure why but it was very interesting and I used to spend hours reading those.. lol. They had transcripts of the sessions and everything.. it was good reading. The info in the books doesn't really apply now. But they certainly thought outside the box back then! The text was very descriptive and went really in depth with everything. Something about case studies - very interesting. Shoulda been studying but I couldn't get enough of those books for some reason, haha.

Don't know why I said that but you talking about books and whatnot just brought it to mind, lol.

Well, I'm glad to learn I'm not the only one with the insane drive to collect information. It's like a disease or something. Quick quick quick - if i consume enough information, I will get to the bottom of it. My T is patient with me as she watches me devour,like a starving wolf. every piece of data that comes in sight. Someday I'll be satiated enough with words and will listen intuitively to what my body is trying to teach me. One can hope, right?

oh no - sorry GOOGLE all the journals, browse the abstracts - read one article - i'm a big dummy. but yeah, love my old Guntrip, a lot of Masterson (recently passed), and there really IS a "cousin Jeffrey" Seinfeld - not with the NYC Parks Dept, but an MCSW at Columbia I think? whose work I really like. And Peter Giovacchini. Point is, this way I was able to talk with my current therapist, not just yell at him, by pointing out passages that I identified with. I really had no other way of communicating. 30 years of frustration with therapists. Well, they DID tell me to not see my family while seeing them, and I WAS UNABLE TO COMPLY (sentence of the week?). After I too lost everything - job, home, mind - I finally found the strength to comply. It's now a different world (for the past 2 months). I exert effort, and I SEE RESULTS. WHO KNEW?! Before, I always had my rewards snatched away from me SOMEHOW.

And then you had your breakdown...

Well, if there is one thing I've learned the hard way, it's that you can't reason and logic your way into understanding yourself. It's something you have to feel your way through and into.

I think you are likely absolutely correct that psychotherapy (or at least the kind you tried) will not work for you. However, psychoanalysis might. It's a different kind of work, very intensive.

My therapist is trained as an analyst and he was impressed with it's effectiveness. The analyst basically isn't there at all. Never proclaims to have answers. The patient just talks, in a free association manner. It's very clinical and from this talking, the patient usually literally cures themselves.

He had to quit because it is very expensive. But according to him, it works.

great

you are probably right and i'm being a bit imprecise with my calling it free association. it was how a T of mine told me to interpret my dreams. i think she used the word brainstorm and it does work for me.

oh definitely. i'm not suggesting you actually accept anything until you are sure it fits and definitely don't act on it unless you are sure. for me, it takes some time and just pondering the ideas. it isn't necessarily a quick process which may be what is tripping you up. you really have to allow yourself the freedom to play around with the ideas and then if after playing around with them for awhile they still don't seem to fit then try something else. sometimes you have to allow yourself to be wrong and make mistakes to find the truth. you may be putting so much pressure on yourself to get it right that your unconscious is refusing to cooperate. maybe writing these ideas down would be helpful. that might slow you down a bit.

you do have awareness as you mentioned in your one post you don't want your family or friends to know what is really going on in your life so you are not being as honest as you'd like. you said it is because you'd feel really ashamed to have them know. that makes perfect sense and you know exactly why you are acting that way. see, it's not an all-or-nothing. you do have awareness but it is a slow process sometimes.

also, sometimes we have to come at these things a bit obliquely because we are dealing with the unconscious after all. so, if you don't get answers in these areas where you are desiring awareness then maybe just work on one small practical thing like showering tomorrow. maybe you do or don't know why you don't want to shower but as you work on this you will likely have all sorts of thoughts pop into your mind. so, what i'm saying is it may take trying to do some of these things to spark the awareness. the thoughts may be things like:

what's the point i have nothing to do,

i just don't have the energy to,

i don't want to,

i don't want to see anyone,

i don't want to face all the things i need to do,

etc.

those are all clues to follow to help figure out why you are stuck and don't want to shower. then you've got something to work with. it's sort of like some strange treasure hunt into the unconscious but it starts with just a tiny bread crumb.

Someone at some uni somewhere (or a few) is probably an expert on the subject and you can easily google up a list of their publications, and NIMH's related publications ad infinitum.

"you are probably right and i'm being a bit imprecise with my calling it free association. it was how a T of mine told me to interpret my dreams. i think she used the word brainstorm and it does work for me. "

Well no its probably my fault, I probably should have gone and looked up the definition of it instead of assuming what free association was, that was my bad.

"oh definitely .. you really have to allow yourself the freedom to play around with the ideas and then if after playing around with them for awhile they still don't seem to fit then try something else. sometimes you have to allow yourself to be wrong and make mistakes to find the truth. you may be putting so much pressure on yourself to get it right that your unconscious is refusing to cooperate. maybe writing these ideas down would be helpful. that might slow you down a bit." (I cut a bit out there just to keep my reply a little shorter)

That makes sense, true. When you say "play around with it", would you mean something along the lines of, I decide for the day or week or month that the reason for X is (something), and then if I feel disgusting during this time with this in mind, then that (something) is the wrong one? Sorry about the simplistic questions, I have the emotional IQ of a garden gnome :P . I probably am putting a bit of pressure on myself. I have pondered every option under the sun until the cows come home with no luck, but maybe if I did it this way it could work.

"you do have awareness as you mentioned in your one post you don't want your family or friends to know what is really going on in your life so you are not being as honest as you'd like. you said it is because you'd feel really ashamed to have them know. that makes perfect sense and you know exactly why you are acting that way. see, it's not an all-or-nothing. you do have awareness but it is a slow process sometimes. "

Yeah true, but this one is extremely obvious so I got a free pass there hehe. I might try the "play with it" thing. That could be good.

"also, sometimes we have to come at these things a bit obliquely because we are dealing with the unconscious after all. so, if you don't get answers in these areas where you are desiring awareness then maybe just work on one small practical thing like showering tomorrow. maybe you do or don't know why you don't want to shower but as you work on this you will likely have all sorts of thoughts pop into your mind. so, what i'm saying is it may take trying to do some of these things to spark the awareness. "

Yes I get a lot of those thoughts but I have done a lot of reading, and apparently its the depression talking and nothing more. Ie most people with depression have the same/similar thoughts. Eg "i wish I was dead" which is the main one, and the rest all relate to "I don't want to do this, but I have to because its the socially acceptable thing to do". Those two are the ones I have in all situations. The rest are all just me grumbling about the same thing eg "I wont have to shower when im dead", "who gives a crap if there is mould in the sink?" etc. So it made sense that this is the depression talking, because its all classical depression stuff. I have attempted to expand on these thoughts in the past, but there is nothing to expand - that is as far as it seems to go. I did try and ask myself "why do you not want to shower?" and all I get is something along the lines of "because showers do not matter, so it is a pointless exercise" or something like that. Classical depression stuff there too.

Like right now, I have to go down to to the shops to get more medication. I really, really don't want to go down there (especially since I only leave the house once a month or so). It's not fear, there is no fear. So I ask myself "why don't you want to go down there?". Anything I can come up with that is negative I will agree to, but I don't get any clear message coming from within me. Anything negative that I can think up as to why that might be, I'm like "yea thats it". But I can't just observe and notice one, because there are none emanating from me, so to speak. Even though I will say "yeah thats it" to every possible option, I don't connect to any of them and there are no aha moments. Could it be possible that the reason I don't want to go down there is a bit of everything negative, and I am connecting to all of them and just don't realise it? It could be possible I think. But then again, that is just the depression talking so who knows, lol. Its hard to separate the depression from myself, since I have always had depression and it is a part of my core being.

Thanks for the reply, it is very thought provoking!

"I think you are likely absolutely correct that psychotherapy (or at least the kind you tried) will not work for you. However, psychoanalysis might. It's a different kind of work, very intensive.

My therapist is trained as an analyst and he was impressed with it's effectiveness. The analyst basically isn't there at all. Never proclaims to have answers. The patient just talks, in a free association manner. It's very clinical and from this talking, the patient usually literally cures themselves. "

Yeah I have been intrigued by the concept of this sort of therapy. However I can't afford it, and you only get 10 free sessions a year and in this type of therapy that would equate to a few weeks which would not be enough. If I was able to work in the future I would definitely consider it though. I think it sounds very thorough and intense, and I think it would be great.

Heya Hankster,

I think that's a great way to communicate if you don't have the words - quoting stuff from those texts that you identify with. Cuz that way, even though you don't have the words, you can convey them in a very precise fashion to your therapist just by selecting the parts that you identify with. That is creative too.. I like it!

You said when you lost everything, somehow you were able to comply and you saw results. I guess its like how in AA they say you won't recover until you hit rock bottom, maybe its the same principle. I guess its similar to me, I never bothered about issues like this thread is about until I hit rock bottom, because I felt it wasn't important and it was being overdramatic, and was unneccessary to be successful in life. And now that I have lost everything, here I am! Sure, I might not comprehend 90% of it but its definitely an eye opener - it's like if people all think like what is mentioned here, then they are all aliens to me, and i thought I knew people like the back of my hand.. hahah! Big eye opener!

Yes I definitely do like to acquire information. That is why it drives me absolutely insane trying to understand these non-factual things like this thread. I like to have all the information about something, and only then can I function within it effectively. And when you're dealing with stuff that you could just be imagining, so you don't know if its actually there or not, then for me that is not acceptable for some reason. At least you know facts are there, and you aren't just imagining them - because they are facts! And you can observe them and its basically very easy to work within that sort of thing. But non observable things that you could just be imagining really drives me up the wall for some reason.. lol! I think I need to get a CPU instead of a brain!

Oh I am back from the shops and I got the meds, mission accomplished. My feeling is "thank god, I don't have to go out for another month!" + relief about that, and I have a whopping tension headache, oops. But that's ok - panadol time! But the main thing is I got the meds which is good. No impulsive aggression for me for another month!

Anyways, when I got back I read another thread on here that someone else wrote. I'm not singling this person out or anything, I just thought it was a great example of how you can link something in your behaviour in the present to something in your past, and it makes sense, and it is healing. From what I can gather in this post and others, when you get the right link there, it hits you like a tonne of bricks and it is undeniable and has a profound affect. Now I can kinda understand why you guys were puzzled with my insight question.. it seems that you dont even need insight. It hits you like a freight train if you get the right one and there is no missing it.

So from this I can conclude that I just haven't found the right one yet. I don't need the insight and shouldn't worry about it, because if I stumble upon the right thing one day, I will be hit by the train and the healing can work etc. The stuff in therapy must have been totally off base because there was no freight train (and that sucks because we explored every scenario we could think of), and all the stuff I have thought up so far over the years was incorrect.

So is this right? There is no denying it?

Sometimes "insights" hit like a ton (US spelling!) of bricks, and sometimes they don't! Sometimes you accumulate ideas and then they start to connect and make more sense.

Speaking of bricks: you literally cannot take a shower in the house of straw blown down by the wolf. So start constructing the house with bricks, and eventually - oh no, T's brother was also a T, both sports nuts, brother esp baseball. If you build it, they (the showers) will come! That's how it is working for me. I am starting to see results from my swimming, and I am showering more, but it has taken me 5 summers to get here. But then mummy always said I was slow... she laughs about it to her friends. And I'm Mensa. But I guess that's how she explains my fall. Maybe that's why it's suddenly easier to "comply" with the request to not see her.

KazzaX - You said earlier that maybe 'thinking outside the box' may be where you find your answers. I took a totally different route than mainstream therapy. I sought out a hypnotherapist (with high credentials) and our goal was to find the "Original Source" of whatever feeling that was taking over my life at that moment. The theory being that, such in your case, the need to abuse animals. The hypnotherapist would then concentrate on taking you back to the first time you had that thought. That would then be the moment that you would focus on, and healing would begin. It may seem farfetched but then sometimes mainstream therapy isn't open to other possibilities. Just a thought, but it helped me immensely. I am aware of the 'whys' but I am also aware of the chemical imbalances that require I take medication. I'm much more accepting of myself and no longer define myself by what others think of me. I am very glad you opened this link - it has sparked many responses and ways of thought that you've been very open to.

Yeah, this makes sense. I guess sometimes you get bits and pieces of the big picture (so to speak) and then eventually you get the last piece and you think "aaaah so THIS is what it is all about!". Sort of like a jigsaw puzzle. Cliche, but very accurate to describe it. Maybe I am being impatient too. I always had a problem with that but I thought I fixed it, but maybe not.. lol. Well I did only go to therapy for 2.5 years and in the grand scheme of things that is probably not very long. Be patient, brain!

True, true!

Yeah I see what you mean here Hankster, thanks.

You have a lot of patience - can you teach me? hehe... Woah swimming and everything, nice. I haven't been swimming in years. Never liked it much but its good for the body, they say. That would be a very healthy thing to do. You definitely don't sound slow to me, you sound like you have a lot of wisdom to impart, and you describe things very well and are very well read.

(a few minutes later)

I just looked up what Mensa means and woah... definitely not slow, LOL!

Hiya Porcupine,

I had looked into hypnotherapy and had kinda dropped the idea because it wasn't (apparently) good for depression. But that is good thinking there - I could use it to address something specific, such as the scenario you mentioned. And maybe the information I get out of that may lead to other insights about myself, and I might have a bit of a clue as to what is going on. Good idea!

I heard on the grapevine not too long ago that it is possible to find a GP who has training in hypnotherapy, and thus it can be bulk billed. Not exactly high credentials, but at least it would be affordable to me (ie free.. lol). When I am at the GP next, which should be soon, I will ask him about this.

Thankyou for this idea!

K - Oh stop it, you're making me... dance