[KazzaX]

This is a confusing question, so I will try to describe it as clearly as I can.. it will be tough, lol.

My history is that for the last 19 years or so, I turned my feelings off, due to my dysfunctional upbringing. I operated like a robot, on autopilot. I filed my feelings away in a cabinet, and did not acknowledge their existence. I was the most logical, rational person on the face of the planet I believe.. lol. I worked in an industry where I excelled primarily for that reason. We saw traumatic things every day and it never, ever rattled my cage. Not once. Even when we found a few clients had passed away in the street, it never even touched me emotionally. I was the most cold, clinical person ever.

Anyways, when I started psychotherapy, we worked on this. I had thought everyone was like me, and those that weren't were just drama queens. Sounds pretty bad but that is what I believed. So we worked on me feeling my feelings, pretty much. Now I am an absolute wreck. Feelings are horrible!!!

Anyways, the thing that stopped psychotherapy from being effective for me was insight. I lack a certain insight that is required to recover. For example, I have an impulsive aggression problem. If I see a certain thing (lets call it X), then it leads to me becoming violent (lets call it Y). All I know is that observing X leads to me becoming enraged, then to Y. So therefore I should avoid seeing X. But people say that avoidance is unhealthy and you should deal with X, so that it does not lead to Y in the future.

The first step is to think "well, how does X make me feel and why?". I have absolutely no idea. I cannot link X to myself emotionally. All I know is that X leads to Y. There is nothing linking X to me, and there is no chain of events or emotions that escalates up to the behaviour of Y. I do not connect with X whatsoever and I do not feel anything towards X. Its just a given fact (due to years of experience) that if you put X in front of me, Y will occur.

This anger one is just an example, one of many. What I need is awareness of WHY X leads to Y, or even something that connects me to X at all. CBT failed when I tried it, primarily for this reason. Yes I can identify the trigger and the outcome but that is all. I don't have any information or feelings or any idea at all what is between X and Y... so I don't have anything to work with. If I could acquire this awareness, then I would have something to manipulate and train myself new behaviors or coping mechanisms etc.

Psychotherapy did not work because since I don't know what is in between X and Y, or even what X means to me. We discussed it 'till the cows came home (well, 2.5 years) and because my answer was "I don't know" to all those sorts of things, we made no progress. It was a sort of dead end. We discussed all the possibilities under the sun about why X leads to Y, or even what X means to me, but there was no aha moments, no nothing. I just do not have that insight into my own head. Every possibility was just as likely as the next one, so there is no way to narrow it down if I cannot recognise "hey, that's why I don't like X!". There is nothing connecting me to the issue at hand. Again, all I know is that X leads to Y and that is it.

So I would like to know if anyone has any ideas as to how one could acquire that insight. Please, no responses like "stop putting yourself down, ofcourse you have that insight!". That is not what I am asking. I'm just wondering how you guys got this insight in the first place so I can think up some way of acquiring it myself.

Thanks

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

The first step is to think "well, how does X make me feel and why?". I have absolutely no idea. I cannot link X to myself emotionally. All I know is that X leads to Y. There is nothing linking X to me, and there is no chain of events or emotions that escalates up to the behaviour of Y... What I need is awareness of WHY X leads to Y, or even something that connects me to X at all.

Can you slow your thinking, or reacting? "Free associate" when you think about X. What else does it bring to mind? Anything? "Nothing"? Are you sure?

[KazzaX]

I just want to mention that X and Y are not always related to violence, that was just one example. I don't want to look like some sort of serial killer or something, lol.

When I free associate (I had to look that up heh) when I think of any Xs, I get nothing. Well maybe a bit of embarrassment because I remember times when I acted irrationally in the past when I came up against it. But nothing to do with WHY it triggers me. There is no awareness there, that's what I mean.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

When I free associate (I had to look that up heh) when I think of any Xs, I get nothing. Well maybe a bit of embarrassment because I remember times when I acted irrationally in the past when I came up against it. But nothing to do with WHY it triggers me. There is no awareness there, that's what I mean.

Just start with whatever comes to mind. Answers will not come immediately.

[KazzaX]

That is fine, I didn't expect to you reply so fast! Woah

When I think of X, I get feelings related to the Y - such as embarrassment and shame. Nothing there related to the X. Oh actually, I also think of ways I could have avoided the X in the first place, sort of a "doh, I should have done this instead.." type thing.

Is that right for free association? Not sure if this is the sort of answer that is entailed.

[skeksi]

What if you never do ind the "why" behind your reactions? It may not be possible, at least right now. You can change your behavior, sometimes, without understanding why it is functional for you. Our feelings and reactions aren't always logical and clearly related to something. Just a devil's advocate position!

I wonder if you might look into working with a therapist who is familiar with an emotion-focused approach. These Ts attend to moment-to-moment reactions in the session, and my work with such a T has helped me expand my emotional vocabulary beyond "okay" and "upset."

I'm sorry your experience with therapy has, until now, been lackluster. You sound very motivated and willing to change; maybe you just need to ind the right therapist to help you make the next step?

[KazzaX]

I can't work (can't even shower or wash my clothes, very low functioning) at the moment and am on government benefits. We do get 10 free sessions per year and I'm not eligible for the next lot until next year. So I'm kind of doing my research in the mean time to see what steps I should take next. My last therapist won't give me a reduced rate anymore because (I assume) I was quite rude and standoffish in my sessions, and I don't blame her - I would do the same if I was in her position!

That is one of my X's actually, come to think of it. I have absolutely no idea why I acted like that in therapy. There was nothing wrong with her, she was a great therapist with 30 years experience, she gave it her all, was very personable, very professional, yet I still acted like that. And I have had other types of therapy in the past where the same thing happened every time. No idea why.. they were all good people. Damn Ys (grumble). I feel bad for every instance that it happened.

See if I could work out what the heck was going on in my head I could tackle the issues head on and make the most out of therapy. You gotta know what exactly is broken before you can fix it!

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

Is that right for free association? Not sure if this is the sort of answer that is entailed.

I think anything that comes up is right for free association! You just have to try to follow the thread of whatever your mind produces. And it can take place over days; it doesn't have to happen all at once.

[KazzaX]

Well usually I think the same thing. Feel bad about the Ys (reactions) and kick myself a bit for not having responded in the normal, socially acceptable fashion. That's it.

I never have thoughts about the X other than "why the heck did I get angry at that??". And I don't have the answer to that, so that is where the thought ends.

I'm like a black box. I know what goes in and what comes out, but what happens in between is a mystery.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I'm like a black box. I know what goes in and what comes out, but what happens in between is a mystery.

Keep asking yourself. Try to slow down your thinking, and see if you can see anything between X and Y.

(Maybe there is a reason you don't want to see what is there?)

[Gently1]

I was/am closed off for 45 years, it was not until I was 50 that I found out emotions had a purpose. I was surprised.

So now as I have prgressed with Therapy I am in a 'raw' state as every emotion is bring out questions and feelings that I still have not developed labels.
I also for protection became extremely independant and now I know and feel that as humans we are designed to connect. (Even if I did not know it)

I look back on my closed off state and people thought I was cold, heartless, as I also could do most of my work without 'feeling'.

I am very slowly making a change to being whole person, decison making using information from the emotions and the thinking = better actions.

Yes, Therapy is painful alot of times but not always, there are the ah ha moments when something clicks.
I do know it is not for everyone and it took me a few tries to find the right Therapist.

I find insight from reading, and setting much of the agenda for my sessions. Insights come from conversations with friends, watching nature.
prayer and meditation, you asked a very hard question, and where do insights come from and why are we aware of them what is the need for insight?

[KazzaX]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Keep asking yourself. Try to slow down your thinking, and see if you can see anything between X and Y.

(Maybe there is a reason you don't want to see what is there?)

No, there is nothing between X and Y because I don't have that awareness. I'm sure if I could see it, there would be a wealth of information there. Do you know how to GAIN this awareness?

That is the question I'm asking.

[KazzaX]

[quote=Gently1;1956769]I was/am closed off for 45 years, it was not until I was 50 that I found out emotions had a purpose. I was surprised.

Not sure if I quoted that correctly but that sounds very similar to me. But 45 years.. woah! It is very strange isn't it, when the world we know so well suddenly has emotions in it! I'm not as far along in the process as you - I observe the emotions in others, etc, but I still am somewhat in denial that they are as important as everyone says they are. And I have only experienced the negative ones so far.... not pleasant! But apparently the positive ones follow afterwards, and then comes good mental health.

Thanks for responding.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

No, there is nothing between X and Y because I don't have that awareness. I'm sure if I could see it, there would be a wealth of information there. Do you know how to GAIN this awareness?

That is the question I'm asking.

Listen. To. Yourself.

[eskielover]

Try googling on DBT Emotional Regulation & you may come up with a lot of information that might help.

There is a whole section in DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) that deals with nothing but emotions & being able to connect with them & analyze them.

I also was one who burried all my emotions & wouldn't admit that I was anything but that logical rational person. I couldn't identify an emotion from a hole in the ground....it's a long process learning this....but I'm working on it slowly....maybe after a few times through this section of the DBT, I will hopefully understand more about my emotions & be able to understand where they are coming from & where my feelings are really coming from.

[Gently1]

[quote=KazzaX;1960851]

Originally Posted by Gently1

I was/am closed off for 45 years, it was not until I was 50 that I found out emotions had a purpose. I was surprised.

Not sure if I quoted that correctly but that sounds very similar to me. But 45 years.. woah! It is very strange isn't it, when the world we know so well suddenly has emotions in it! I'm not as far along in the process as you - I observe the emotions in others, etc, but I still am somewhat in denial that they are as important as everyone says they are. And I have only experienced the negative ones so far.... not pleasant! But apparently the positive ones follow afterwards, and then comes good mental health.

Thanks for responding.

Yes, 45 years of only knowing half of myself, knowing something was missing but thought it was a dysfunction and permanent.
The being closed off- This was all a good thing at first to protect myself as child. Later the shutdown inside where on the outside, I was considered extremely shy- Also heard cold hearted

The shyness was really anxiety, and because I just thought everything was 'painful' on my shyness-overly sensitive lable that I had been given and gave myself, I just carried on the just believing that was how I was and I could not change. I am amazed at what I accomplished with unlabled anxiety.

Lables can work for and against us. Now that I know anxiety (correct lable) and have been introduced to mindfullness and other coping techniques. It has taken a few years to uncover my emotional life.

This is lecture that that I saw in 2010 (Age 49) just last summer that allowed me to understand that emotions have a purpose, that was relevant to me.

the neuroscience of emotions

this where I gained insight/ connection to my emotions, and living my life is the ongoing insight.

As pachyderm said Listen. To. Yourself.

and as my nutrition dr says

Say outloud five times:
There is enough time and space for everything I need to do.
All the best.
G1

[KazzaX]

Listen to what though? There's nothing there, that is the whole point lol. There is nothing that I can observe there. That's why I want to know how to gain the insight, so that I can observe things and then do whatever is necessary to correct them.

I'm not trying to just be difficult or do attentionseeking, btw. A lot of people think that. I'm stating a problem and just wondering if there is an answer. I might be missing something here because, being very rational, logical etc, you guys might be implying something airy fairy that I am just totally missing.

So from what I can gather here, people usually have emotional voices (or whatever.. thought streams or something) that continuously chatter away in their head, and they observe and listen to these, and that is how they know what their "internal issues" and thought processes are?

How would I start the process to acquire this sort of chatter? Or how would I acquire the insight to observe them, if they are already there but just subconscious?

[skysblue]

When I first started therapy my T had to spend a lot of time convincing me that getting in touch with my emotions was important. She said I was extremely well developed in rationality - the Schwarzenegger of 'thought building'. I approached everything analytically. I kept thinking that I could 'figure things out.' Every problem could be solved if you thought hard enough.

Finally, after using my analytical mind by reading a ton of stuff about emotions I am convinced of their importance and of our need to access them and feel them.

Like Pachyderm says, 'listen'. Now they're buried so deep and are so hidden that they're not easily accessible. My T continually asks me what I feel in my body. Yes - physical sensations. At first I couldn't detect any physical sensations. That just shows you how out of touch I was with myself. But, eventually, with lots of quiet sitting with eyes closed I could sense movement in my body. Not wildly apparent but subtle - like a bit of tension in the muscles, a bit of constriction in the throat, breathing a bit irregular and on and on.

But patience is required. There is no quick way to get in touch with them. Being alert to the smallest signal is required. Getting out of your head and to think less is necessary.

Another way might be some meditation techniques. What does your T recommend for accessing emotions?

[KazzaX]

Heya Skysblue,

Thanks for your reply. I haven't got a T anymore because I was placed in the "too hard basket" and and don't have any more free sessions until next year. So although I asked this specific question in here, I am also at the same time trying to get a "feel" if psychotherapy can help with this particular problem - sort of the "was my therapist just not very good, or is it that psychotherapy in general that cannot help me with my problem?" type thing. I was attending with her for 2.5 years though.

My issues are not that I cannot identify emotions, I can do that. It is my thought processes that I cannot access. Sort of like if you are feeling angry at something, the general population will be able to trace back that anger and see the chain of events that lead from the trigger to the angry response. I have no ability to see this chain, and that is what was the topic of this post. Just wondering how to acquire this insight, because if I had it, then I could successfully recover from this 19 year stint of severe depression, I believe. Well it would help a LOT at the very least, I think.

I'll give an example of how this problem stuffs up my life. I love animals. I really do. I have always been good with animals. However I have had to ban myself from owning pets for the rest of my life because when I get one, I am physically abusive to them. I have no idea why. It is really disturbing. And it is totally out of character for me, but it happens every time. Now, the normal Average Joe would be able to see "I do this because it reminds me of how I felt helpless as a child and I have to take the power back, and then I feel better" (NB: this is just some random reason I made up to get the point across, it is not true for me). All I know is, if I have a pet, I will damage it, therefore I better not have a pet because hurting animals is wrong and I WILL do it if I have one.

If I knew why it was that I did that to animals, or what thought processes lead me to that destination, then I could use this information to manipulate it so that instead I would go and do something else as a reaction (eg snap a rubber band on my wrist or something non harmful to anyone). But to do this, you need to be able to observe what lead you to that point, what feelings you got out of it, etc which is the skill I do not have.

So - I guess what I am really saying is "can psychotherapy help me with attaining this insight, or not?". Because if not, it would save me a lot of time, and I could just go and try another therapy or treatment or whatever. I have already lost 19 years to mental illness, so time is definitely of the essence.

[skysblue]

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Well, I'll offer my 'blind leading the blind' thoughts. What happened to me is that lots of emotions got released when therapy started working. LOTS! I had no idea from where they came or even exactly what they were. They were just overwhelming and I felt like I was going crazy. You'll read a lot here on PC where people think they're getting worse since starting therapy but my opinion is that they're finally experiencing their emotions and it scares the bejeezus out of them. At least that's what happened to me (is happening).

So, have I been able to trace back the source of the emotions? A little. It's a slow process because stuff is so buried. I am sure I would not be able to do this without my therapist. First of all, she's there to guide and help me. She is psychodynamic and humanistic oriented so it's not a case of 'practical' steps to overcome certain issues. It's more like a slow excavation of internal stuff.

Without her I would be flailing and flapping in the wind and I would have retreated back under my covers or I would be certifiable by now. She is my rudder to keep me going the right direction. She keeps telling me to 'trust the process'. That must be the common mantra among therapists and it's hard sometimes to trust it when the signs of progress are ephemeral at times or non-existent (it seems) at other times.

I would take your questions to a therapist and ask what modality would work for you. I really really believe that some of this stuff is too tough to do on our own. I'm not saying it's impossible but, for me, I am extremely grateful that, at the very least, someone is witnessing my journey.

[Sannah]

I would think that you are very guarded and you "don't want to go there". Have you ever talked about your upbringing in therapy before?

[KazzaX]

Hiya Skysblue,

Ahhh cool, that was a great post. It answered one of my questions, which is good! (ie, can psychotherapy help with this?). I wasn't sure if I was going down the right road by trying psychotherapy for this problem, so it's good information in your post. Yeah I tend to agree, I could try and do it myself but I would have nooooo idea what "the process" is, lol, let alone know what is the appropriate thing I should be doing to cope if it became hectic. A therapist would be better to have on hand for this sort of thing I bet.

The therapist i used to have was a bit strange. She wouldn't tell me anything really, she was all mysterious about every single thing I asked her. Couldn't get a straight answer out of her for quids, lol. She would only ever talk about psychotherapy and CBT, probably because she does both. Probably isn't "the done thing" for her to recommend anything outside of her realm of expertise, which is fair enough.

Thanks for your post!

[KazzaX]

Originally Posted by Sannah

I would think that you are very guarded and you "don't want to go there". Have you ever talked about your upbringing in therapy before?

Hiya Sannah,

Yeah we spoke about it in great depth for the whole time I was there. It was ok at the start because we found out why I am depressed, which was good. But after that it was a bit of a dead loss because I don't have this insight that I am enquiring about in this thread. And to address the issues, you need to have a bit of insight into why/how/etc you have processed these issues, which I do not have. That is another reason I am asking how to get the insight - because then if I tried psychotherapy again it might work.

I don't really have any reason to be guarded, and I never get the "lets not go there" feeling whenever I attempt to examine my thought processes. All I get is an eery silence (and a tumbleweed rolls across the ground...joking).

So yeah. That is why I think its really important to find this stuff out!

[Sannah]

I would go for access for the emotions before I would go for insight.

[unaluna]

Hi KazzaX. Thanks for the pet example, that helped clarify your situation for me. I had / have a similar (if simplistic) thing, which I hope you can extrapolate from. I would say things (awful, embarrassing, hurtful). Instead of trying to stop saying these things, my therapist worked with me (more like sat and bs'd with me!), showing me the love and acceptance and forming the attachments that never happened in childhood. Now I find myself automatically not saying the problematic things, unless I am pretty stressed. What the bs'ing accomplished was building new structures, new connections in the brain? And I do mean bs'ing, because a lot of time was spent discussing Superbowl 42 (I KNEW the Giants would win!). Point is, using therapy to build good new habits (naturally, not mechanically) and don't feed the bad old ones. My other bad old ones have come up for discussion as things get rearranged up there.
But I know that coldness you talk about, I have it too. I think it does come from being treated with extreme coldness as a child. Thing is, when you don't know any different, it doesn't feel cold. Skysblue's reading suggestions (posted elsewhere) are excellent, I think I have made a few - T's kinda brag that they went thru the process too - but for them, it was an open book test! Please keep posting with any questions.