[Chopin99]

I asked my T about post-therapy associations and her answer was interesting as usual. I told her, "I have genuinely grown to like you as a person. When you mentioned you were weak and needed to walk, I realized my own need to do this and thought it would be nice if we could do that together." Her response, "I would like that." I said, "I also need people for my human rights committee and you came to mind but the main reason I'm asking you is this; I hate the idea of going through all this (therapy) with you and then losing you from my life completely."

Her response: "The ethics rules state that there should be two years between the end of therapy and the start of a relationship." I said, "I thought that was for sexual relationships." She said, "Well yeah, that's the real reason for it, to keep therapists from entering sexual relationships, which I think are always unethical. When clients are done with therapy with me, I don't mind someone calling and leaving me a message that they would like to talk to me and just catch up. I always call back. At that point, it would no longer be a therapeutic relationship, it would be reciprocal. If we want that to go further into a casual relationship where we might go to lunch or start taking those walks, I don't have a problem with it. I take it on a case by case basis. I meet a lot of people through my work and they are good people that I genuinely like. If we determine no harm will come from it, it can happen."

I'll admit I actually expected this. My gut told me so. I need to trust my gut more often. Here's where it got tricky:

Then, I gave her my husband's concerns about it because I promised him I would. (Reference: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=210553) She thought about it and said he had a point. She then worried that the promise of a future relationship might bias the current therapeutic relationship from either side. So, she said she wasn't going to talk about it again until my therapy is over.

We moved on in the session from there. However, I have concerns related to the current therapeutic relationship that I am worried about. I am going to send this as an email (**warning...very long**):

I'm going to bring this up, then I will leave it in your hands. The ball will be in your court. I hope and pray you will please read, think and pray about, and respond to these concerns. Thank you for answering my question about post-therapy relationships. However, I am really worried about the impact of the question on the current therapeutic relationship. My greatest concern is that you will be so hyper-aware about holding the boundaries or be so overly cautious in our therapeutic relationship from now on that you will pull away from me, intentionally or not. As soon as you made up your mind to defer to the end of my therapy, you perceptibly distanced yourself and my heart sank. I carried on despite how I felt because I didn't want you to know it bothered me; however, the somewhat unusual nature of our therapeutic relationship was the single greatest factor in getting me to open up. You took a risk and it worked. I need to connect with you on the level that we have had for the past few sessions for me to be able to open up to you. It is what has kept me going in this process.

Even though I prayed hard and got lots of advice, I worry that I have screwed up my own healing. I went into this thinking if you entertained the idea of a post-therapy non-therapeutic relationship, I would be willing to put that aside for the sake of my healing. Now, I worry that by asking the question, I opened a can of worms. We both know that we will always be aware of your gut reaction before logic and professionalism set in. What was said cannot be unsaid. Your gut reaction to my question was exactly what my gut told me you'd say. Why can't I trust my gut? H, Boss, and BFF tell me my gut is very accurate but I doubt it to a fault. Why couldn't I just believe them and not ask the question?

Why can't I just leave well enough alone??!! Why can't we agree that we seem to genuinely like each other and get along well? Why can't we acknowledge there is a possibility in the future and not revisit it until I'm done with therapy? Why can't we accept that our therapeutic relationship is different and that's okay? I truly believe I can put the future aside for the sake of my healing. I truly believe you can too, simply because you love me and I know you want me to heal so badly. I can see it in your eyes. I know that's why you pushed me a few sessions ago even though it upset me. I saw it today when I looked you straight in the eye and said, "I trust you" for the first time. Last session when I read my CBT homework and came to healthy conclusions, you smiled and I watched your face light up and saw the genuine happiness in your eyes. I'm an empath, so when I open up to someone and look into their eyes, I can feel what they feel. That's why my gut is so good when it comes to the people I love most: my husband, my family, my best friends, my clients, and you.

I told you today I've been having OCD symptoms lately. They are really kicking now because I'm afraid that with one silly, selfish question, I'm going to sabotage my healing; let God, myself, and my loved ones down; and lose you in the process. I said earlier today that I'm finally starting to feel that I am worthy of love, friendship, and respect...add healing to that. Those things are important to me, and I'm going to fight for what is important to me; if I have to go down, at least I'll go down swinging. Please help me; I need you to help me...and I HATE being needy. Will you please either reply to this email, call me (#), or move up my session, if possible? T, I really like you, love you, and trust you...and in the past, those things spelled disaster. I don't want to repeat the same mistakes. I'm worth better...even from myself.

Thank you.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Chopin99

However, I am really worried about the impact of the question on the current therapeutic relationship. My greatest concern is that you will be so hyper-aware about holding the boundaries or be so overly cautious in our therapeutic relationship from now on that you will pull away from me, intentionally or not. As soon as you made up your mind to defer to the end of my therapy, you perceptibly distanced yourself and my heart sank. I carried on despite how I felt because I didn't want you to know it bothered me

I don't think that your introspection about this issue could get any deeper. (That is a compliment, in case this isn't clear).

This is what struck me, as the interaction to focus on. You take a huge risk and then she distanced herself. You stepped with your heart wide open and it feels like she stepped back, if I'm understanding you correctly. And I remember some of your other thoughts about rejection, about being sensitive to it. Do you think it is possible that what you perceived as her distancing herself was something you were misinterpreting? Could it be that her deferment of addressing the issue just felt like rejection to you, that perhaps your misunderstanding of the social relationships rule in therapy made you doubt your judgment, so you looked at her so closely that you interpreted something as distancing but it really wasn't? Did you "read" rejection into it, because the answer was not an absolute, "hell, yes!"

I have learned so much from my T by bringing up his reactions, or my perceptions of them, and asking him for feedback about what I thought I interpreted. It's kind of a win-win. If she did distance herself and can acknowledge it, then that's one for trusting the gut. If she didn't, then you've learned something knew about how you read her and maybe others and understand the limits of the "gut."

Anne

[Chopin99]

***Possible trigger...past sui* attempt***

I walked away from the computer for a few minutes and came to a realization. T and I are going to HAVE to work through this to get back to where we were for this reason: what is happening with her right now closely parallels a relationship from my past (not my mother, BTW ) and I am very triggered.

I had a teacher at my parochial school that took a special liking to me. I reached out to her for help and she gave me a lot of time. No abuse occurred, but the "really close/distant, really close/distant" dynamic was there. The "friendship" thing came up with her too. When I graduated, the relationship ended naturally. However, several years later, I attempted to rekindle the relationship. We commenced an email relationship. Went fine for several months, made plans to get together. Before that happened, she angered me by accusing me of doing something I did not do. So I emailed several times about that. The next email I received from her threatened a restraining order. So, needless to say, contact stopped until a very odd circumstance threw us together. I apologized for my part in the rift; she did not. She promised further contact. I tried to contact her about a month later. She finally responded by saying never contact her again. I haven't.

I almost sui* over the restraining order email...trigger...trigger...trigger...

[bluemountains]

Hi Chopin,
First of all, I am glad that you finally were able to bring up your question with your therapist today.
Here are my thoughts, *tainted with my hypo-manic, very worried state of mind.*
The way I process what you have said:

Even though I prayed hard and got lots of advice, I worry that I have screwed up my own healing.

You had to voice your question because you could not keep it inside of you.
Your planned email indicates that the OCD over this topic still hasn't been satisfied. The way I read her response is that she is willing to continue a relationship of some type after the current goals in therapy are met. You have changed the therapeutic relationship with this question, but doesn't it change every session as you grow and change?
My advice would be to let today's session settle in your mind for a while longer. After this, you may want to change your email, or just wait until your next session to address your concerns.
Peace!
Bluemountains

[unaluna]

Choppy, thanks for coming on here and sharing. I'm a little confused - you seem to be reading her as pulling back a lot, whereas I don't see where she said, yes yes a thousand times yes!? She just said "it can happen", then you brought your husband's concerns (which I am unclear about exactly what they were) then she said, right, the promise of a future could bias either one of us, so let's drop it. Now you are asking, did you eff things up by asking or can you go back to where you were, to the special relationship you had?

The little fly in the ointment is THE FUTURE. You can have a special relationship in the present. HAVING that relationship, having those feelings, building those psychic structures, IS all that matters right now. I'm not saying ignore this question - i'm saying the answer is not yes or no for the future, it's why does it matter, why are you asking, what does it mean to your PAST?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

I don't think that your introspection about this issue could get any deeper. (That is a compliment, in case this isn't clear).

This is what struck me, as the interaction to focus on. You take a huge risk and then she distanced herself. You stepped with your heart wide open and it feels like she stepped back, if I'm understanding you correctly. And I remember some of your other thoughts about rejection, about being sensitive to it. Do you think it is possible that what you perceived as her distancing herself was something you were misinterpreting? Could it be that her deferment of addressing the issue just felt like rejection to you, that perhaps your misunderstanding of the social relationships rule in therapy made you doubt your judgment, so you looked at her so closely that you interpreted something as distancing but it really wasn't? Did you "read" rejection into it, because the answer was not an absolute, "hell, yes!"

I have learned so much from my T by bringing up his reactions, or my perceptions of them, and asking him for feedback about what I thought I interpreted. It's kind of a win-win. If she did distance herself and can acknowledge it, then that's one for trusting the gut. If she didn't, then you've learned something knew about how you read her and maybe others and understand the limits of the "gut."

Anne

Thanks for the compliment.

Read my trigger post. That's one problem here.

She most definitively pulled back. She literally sat up straighter in her chair, became much more serious and clinical, took more notes than usual (although I was able to glance at them; nothing unusual, but nothing about the post-therapy conversation), and ended the session rather abruptly. She pretty much opened the door and walked out; I had to chase her into the hallway to hug her and the hug was uncharacteristically brief. WAY different!

[unaluna]

Whoa, choppy! (my hobby horse's name is chappy, btw!) I think you DID just work it out! Whew! Also, what Anne said. My T would say, really good work.

[bluemountains]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

***Possible trigger...past sui* attempt***

I walked away from the computer for a few minutes and came to a realization. T and I are going to HAVE to work through this to get back to where we were for this reason: what is happening with her right now closely parallels a relationship from my past (not my mother, BTW ) and I am very triggered.

I had a teacher at my parochial school that took a special liking to me. I reached out to her for help and she gave me a lot of time. No abuse occurred, but the "really close/distant, really close/distant" dynamic was there. The "friendship" thing came up with her too. When I graduated, the relationship ended naturally. However, several years later, I attempted to rekindle the relationship. We commenced an email relationship. Went fine for several months, made plans to get together. Before that happened, she angered me by accusing me of doing something I did not do. So I emailed several times about that. The next email I received from her threatened a restraining order. So, needless to say, contact stopped until a very odd circumstance threw us together. I apologized for my part in the rift; she did not. She promised further contact. I tried to contact her about a month later. She finally responded by saying never contact her again. I haven't.

I almost sui* over the restraining order email...trigger...trigger...trigger...

Hi again Chopin,
I missed this message before I sent my last reply. THIS is the information you need to share with your T. The therapist you have described is one who will help you process your current feelings/needs. Your t obviously is very dedicated to helping you heal, and she will get you through this need to sort out your feelings and relationship with her. You are blessed with a loving, caring t!
Hugs!!
Bluemountains

[Chopin99]

Thanks for your feedback, Anne, Hank, and Blue

Got the crying part out and thinking more clearly.

I realize the trigger is the main problem and needs to be processed from the perspective of the past and present and what I want the future to look like. Currently I am ditching the other email and writing a short email to T asking for immediate practical skills until I can process.

This is really not about not getting the answer I "wanted". Damn, I actually GOT the answer I wanted...she was obviously interested. I just didn't want it to the detriment of the current therapeutic relationship! H says I am assuming the worst of her, as is my pattern. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Chopin99

She most definitively pulled back. She literally sat up straighter in her chair, became much more serious and clinical, took more notes than usual (although I was able to glance at them; nothing unusual, but nothing about the post-therapy conversation), and ended the session rather abruptly. She pretty much opened the door and walked out; I had to chase her into the hallway to hug her and the hug was uncharacteristically brief. WAY different!

I get that this was her behavior and it was "different". But does this behavior really mean that she is rejecting closeness with you? I can see how it's not crazy to interpret it that way.

Only she can really tell you what it meant, and I'm assuming she has enough of that stuff that people have to be able to see themselves and their behavior clearly. Perhaps she was switching gears from the future talk to the present talk. Perhaps she felt the need to compensate by being "clinical" because she felt that she was being too loose with this conversation about a future relationship. Maybe she's worried about a boundary, or there is worry about something else. Maybe she was running off to the bathroom because she had to go. Maybe the conversation just unnerved her, because she's had some serious health problems and she may not be able to imagine a future relationship with anyone.

My instinct would be the same as yours-- I've had the relationships that I thought were great turn into the other person dumping me without explanation or logic. Even now I find the smallest of reasons to think that my friends are about to ditch me. But I plow forward and pretend that I don't feel scared, and things seem to work out. I think in the past, I'd allow my nervousness to any sign of pulling away to completely freak out the other person. In reality, there is a dance in most relationships with closeness and pulling away, it's never just the same. Being more comfortable with this has made all my relationships better.

I know you will raise this with her, and about how you felt about it, and will see what she says. It seems like whatever happened was real; it's just the meaning that may be open to interpretation.

Best, Anne

[unaluna]

Well at least now we have some idea of what the repetition compulsion is about. I kept asking my T to "stop by my apartment on his way home from the airport". I think he didn't know if I was serious or what. But I guess he didn't realize that my hoarding was so bad, that could have been just plain dangerous. It took me months to admit it wasn't a "joke" - he doesn't fly that often! - that there was some meaning to what I was saying. I think we finally just related it to my wanting my mother to "stop in and see me" when she came home from work at 3am, which she would just never do, and the feelings I had about that, and about being acknowledged in general, and getting what you ask for, and being special to someone. So now, for those hours a week i'm in the room, my brain is learning i'm special to someone. then I get on here and spread the special around. cuz I LOVE the people here. their hearts are so good.

[Chopin99]

My H is trying to tell me that if what I brought up today (i.e. the "future r/s issue") caused a problem in the current therapeutic r/s, then I should avoid further problems by not ever discussing the topic again. Pretend it didn't happen. I thought one of the essential functions of therapy was to explore the therapeutic r/s to see parallels in RL.

Is he right?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Is he right?

I was going to respond to this stmt before you asked, becuz you said before that you felt you caused a problem in the r/s. 1. No he is not right, he is wrong. 2. My T says the pattern in therapy is approach, rupture, repair (repeat). You come together, you misunderstand, you repair the misunderstanding, and you come together again. That replicates the mother-infant pattern? 3. So really, not possible to wreck the r/s. That just doesn't make sense to me. Purposely hold something back from T? Why even go?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by hankster

I was going to respond to this stmt before you asked, becuz you said before that you felt you caused a problem in the r/s. 1. No he is not right, he is wrong. 2. My T says the pattern in therapy is approach, rupture, repair (repeat). You come together, you misunderstand, you repair the misunderstanding, and you come together again. That replicates the mother-infant pattern? 3. So really, not possible to wreck the r/s. That just doesn't make sense to me. Purposely hold something back from T? Why even go?

Well, I may disagree with a lot of psychoanalytic stuff, but I think you are right on with this. We even talked today about using the therapeutic r/s to learn healthy boundaries in RL. H is trying to compare therapy to a business relationship. He's been to therapy with me once with each provider and he doesn't get it. He's been blessed/cursed with an almost completely logical mind. By his own admission, he is clueless about almost anything emotional. Honestly, I don't know why I keep talking to him.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

H is trying to compare therapy to a business relationship.

That is still probably wiser than when I was trying to conduct therapy in my business relationships!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Well, H is trying to compare therapy to a business relationship....By his own admission, he is clueless about almost anything emotional.

I am like this.

[Chopin99]

Now I've got to get ready to go to work. I don't know if I have it in me to be able to give to my own clients. Haven't heard from T yet, but it's early. I hope she can help me somehow or squeeze me in soon. Still extremely anxious, somewhat triggered.

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Honestly, I don't know why I keep talking to him.

You should keep talking to him, but you might want to consider whether you should have bigger boundaries around the content of your therapy with him. Not because he's your H, or because there's something wrong with him, or because there's anything wrong with talking about your therapy per se, but because he "doesn't get it", I'm not sure his input isn't just sending you in circles. For me, and of course this may not be the same for you, I've found that talking about therapy with someone who's in therapy is pretty cool, but not so much when they are not, or they haven't been.

FWIW,
Anne

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Now I've got to get ready to go to work. I don't know if I have it in me to be able to give to my own clients. Haven't heard from T yet, but it's early. I hope she can help me somehow or squeeze me in soon. Still extremely anxious, somewhat triggered.

But it's like ygrec says, you're the same person, you have pretty much the same knowledge and awareness. You are integrating it; T isn't up to speed yet on the teacher story?, but that should put things in perspective for her, and help her help you figure out the EARLIER source of that unmet need (i'm guessing). You can do this.

[Chopin99]

Heard from T:

Email I sent her:
My session today has triggered a PTSD/OCD reaction to a situation from my past. I am having a very difficult time dealing with this and Jeff and I have been discussing/arguing about this for the last 2.5 hours. He feels I don't have the practical skills to handle this sort of reaction and wants me to ask for your help. I agree with him on this. I want to write details now, but he is telling me not to because I make mistakes when I send emails and I'll only screw things up worse with you. In my current state of mind, I do not trust myself so I'm taking his advice. However, he is trying to look at this from his completely logical perspective and it is not helping; actually it is hurting me. He has also told me to f*** the therapy forum because I don't know these people and they're giving me bad advice. He also thinks I am trying to sabotage my therapy. Then again, this is coming from the man who just told me, "I look at other people and watch how they act and I do not understand why they don't want to be like me." Narcissistic much? I am trying every skill I know, I'm praying, yet I feel all alone. I need help and I don't like needing help. Will you please either reply to this email or call me? Is there anything you can do to help me?

Her response:
I am out of the office today & I'm not going to be able to check e-mail/phone for the rest of the day.
It sounds like you may be sabotaging your progress. (I said may be). What is the truth that you talked about in session? It doesn't matter how you feel. I'm wondering why yesterday triggered this considering the truth you have come to know & believe. Saturate yourself with what you know to be the truth/what you wrote & read to me yesterday.
You may want to call my office & make an appointment for tomorrow. We can do a session on the phone if it makes it easier on you b/c of work.
We may need to talk about your participation in this forum too. It may not be what you need right now.
Breathe deeply/slowly. Exercise-walk.
The truth is still the truth!
I'm praying for you!

So I made an appointment with T for noon tomorrow. Apparently we are closed tomorrow (nobody told me), so I can be there in person.

The hard truth from H and T is that my participation in this forum may not be what I need right now. I will hate to leave, but my healing comes first.

I'll still be on today. I can make it through today despite feeling like this:

Originally Posted by Chopin99

The hard truth from H and T is that my participation in this forum may not be what I need right now. I will hate to leave, but my healing comes first.

What is it about participating here that has been bad for you? I'm just curious.

Sorry all of this is so hard!

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by treehouse

What is it about participating here that has been bad for you? I'm just curious.

Sorry all of this is so hard!

H by his own admittance doesn't understand the therapy process. I am participating on a therapy forum he also doesn't understand. He also does not trust people on the internet. He is being protective.

T (and I'm projecting/assuming because I really don't know) wants me to surround myself with "healthy" people. By definition, people here are not healthy because most of us are all in the same boat. I am perpetuating my own cycle here on the forum.

Thing is, I don't have a large healthy social circle. When she went through her own therapy process, since her therapist told her to get rid of unhealthy people in her life, she ended up alone except for her husband and daughter and stepsons. She may expect the same for me...I don't know. I'll find out tomorrow.

Thanks (((tree)))

[unaluna]

IMO you would be sabotaging your therapy by leaving here, and you would be missed, but it's your choice. We often encourage people to print off stuff to show their T's when they say they can't bring themselves to tell T something but they do tell us? You might consider printing off your "Answer" thread to show T the kind of support you get here (granted, I think it's some of their best work!). I think the "truth" your T is referring to, is your faith in each other and in your, well, faith. I wish you well, whatever you decide.

What "bad advice" are people here giving you?

[confuseduk]

chopin, we'll be here to support you whatever you decide. We care and want what's best for each other