Therapist's presence and Self were missing

Today I had the first of several mock counseling sessions with a counselor-in-training at my university. (I have to do this as a requirement for a course.) The student-counselor will practice her skills on.

My overwhelming feeling after this session is I sure am glad she is not my T! I felt the absence of her presence. Where was she? She sat there and listened to me and made responses but I got no sense of her presence or self. I don't mean that she didn't tell me about herself, but that she just didn't seem there. Was this her intent? Is this being a blank slate? (As far as I know, this is not a psychodynamic training program, but one in counseling that follows a non-directive model).

My T is not like that. He is very much present in our sessions. He gives of himself and he has a strength and presence, and yes, even an intensity. He has personality. I don't mean self disclosure. He just seems very genuine and is who he is with me.

I am studying Nursing, and in our field, we have this thing called "the therapeutic use of self" in patient-nurse relationships. I haven't seen this referred to in quite the same way by other types of health care providers. This is a description from a nursing website:
Today, I felt the student counselor's "self" was missing. She was not using her "personality consciously to establish relatedness."

My T's self and personality are never missing. It would be lonely if I were the only self present in the room! He has a lot of presence and I think he knows that is therapeutic and uses it in that way. I do think it is deliberate, even though he is genuine also. What he does is similar to what is described above that nurses should do.

I wonder if others feel their T's presence and self in their interactions? Does anyone have a therapist like my student-counselor, who doesn't have a "presence" and whose self seems absent? Maybe the student has been trained to keep her self out of the session, or maybe she just doesn't have much personality or presence and so it appears her self is lacking. Maybe it's too quiet and subtle for me to see.

This experience has made me think about my relationship with my T. We rarely talk about our relationship, but I'd like to next time. I think it all ties back to something that happened in one of our first few sessions, when he asked me what I wanted from him in therapy. (Essentially, I told him I wanted his Self.) I want to revisit that. Maybe if I hadn't told him that, he would have been to me like this student counselor--absent? Somehow I doubt he could keep his self out of the room, but did what I said to him back then change how he interacted with me? Once he told me, a couple years later, "you told me at that session that you wanted.... and so I have."

If this student were really my own T, therapy with her would feel useless. I can understand how clients go to a T once and then never return, which I've heard happens frequently. If she were really my T, I probably wouldn't go back for a second session (especially knowing what a therapist can be from my own T). I think the T must communicate who they are in that first session or run the risk of losing the client. My T projected such a strong presence in our first session. Stronger than what I now know is typical for him, which itself is pretty strong. I am sure that was deliberate. "Let the client have no doubt who I am and that I am here." Maybe I am just a calf that got roped in by the expert wrangler.

Interesting. Different approaches appeal to different people? Maybe she's trying not to be intimidating? A strong presence would be intimidating to me at first. I think that would scare me off. If she's in training maybe she hasn't quite figured out how to connect? I don't know.

Interesting topic, Sunrise. I know that when I was in training . . .a loooong time ago we had to do the same exercise for two semesters. We were paired up and had to take turns recording the sessions, each taking their turn over the two semesters being the client. This was before they released us onto the general public to train. When I initially began the student dyad counseling practice, I was so concious of the fact that I was being recorded and evaluated by my supervising professor that I felt as though my brain was going a mile a minute. It might be that she was so "in her head" trying to figure out what she was suppose to be doing that she couldn't be fully present for you in the session. I know that by the second or third recording, my brain calmed down and I was very comfortable and present in the session.

That said, I know it can be very disconcerning to be with someone who isn't fully present during a counseling session. I went to one therapist a number of years ago, a seasoned therapist, who seemed too up in his head to ever be truly sitting across from me. I think he was always thinking about what his next brilliant interpretation would be I quickly ditched him and found someone more down to earth and genuinely with me in the therapy room. My current therapist is the most grounded therapist I've ever worked with (I've had two long term therapists) in my lifetime. She's a gem and her groundedness is solid and reassuring. I definitely feel heard!

Sunny are you able to give this feedback as part of the exercise? I would think that this is something very important for the counselor-in-training to hear (and take seriously).

Good point. I guess I just wanted to know more that she was there.

Jaybird, thanks for you comments. I'm in a beginning counseling class now too and we had to do a similar exercise earlier this week in a student tryad. I had to be counselor, client, and observer, in succession. This was the first time any of us had tried our counseling responses, and an instructor was watching, it was recorded, etc. The student who was my counselor in that situation, plus the one I was observer for, were both OK, I thought, and more there than the the one I described in my opening post. ( And I hope I was too!) The one who was "absent" is a more advanced student, in her 2nd yr of the program and so has a lot more experience and skills. Her responses were "smooth" and intentional. But she kept her self out of it. It made me wonder if this is the goal? Maybe she was like us when she started--clumsier and with more self present, and as she has obtained more experience, she became so smooth and blah and gone. Maybe this is the goal of this particular counseling program. I don't know.

I feel curious and would like to ask her, "Is this how you think a counselor should be?" I would like to talk to her about my impressions, but there is no forum for that. (And she will get more expert, professional commentary from her instructor.) Interestingly, I'm now remembering a situation a few years ago when I was taking an Abnormal Psychology class. We had small lab sections with TAs who were clinical psychology (doctoral) students. I remember giving them somewhat similar feedback on our evaluation forms--that they should not be worried about presenting more of themselves to the class, that it would help them forge a stronger connection with students. In the case of those TAs, I felt in some sense they were just young and didn't know any better and maybe also were a bit shy in the role of TA. The same quarter I had a math class and my TA in math was certainly not like that. Maybe he is the one who should have been training to be a clinical psychologist!

Jaybird, I'll keep what you said in mind. Maybe this student was very nervous and anxious about "performing" for her instructor. Maybe she'll become more comfortable in our later sessions. I look forward to that! I'm also going to watch my progress in my beginning counseling class to make sure I don't lose my self when I am with my "client." (I am not in the counseling program but taking the class as an elective.)

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Maybe when my sessions are over, there will be a chance for that. But she did tell me how the sessions would go at our first meeting, and did not mention client eedback. I think they depend more on the feedback of the instructor and others in their group who watch the recording.

On the one hand, I don't like this experience, as it seems somewhat like a waste of my time since it's not truly a therapy session where I can hope for help from the counselor. But now I am seeing that I am learning something from it. I am learning a different style from this student and also able to experience more clinicians and get ideas for how I would like to be and not be once I am practicing. So I think I'll just sit back and let the sessions unfold and see what she brings to them each time.

My T said to me once that he is more directive than some clinicians and I replied that I didn't find him directive at all. Now I know more what he meant, as the style of this counseling program is very non-directive. So I am learning something! When I am with my T, I think I will be much more aware of his "art".

idk, I think feedback is part of therapy. It is in mine, anyway. My T has been a T for over 30 years and still encourages and appreciates feedback.

"I wonder if others feel their T's presence and self in their interactions?"

I know I feel my T so strongly that it's really obvious when he's pulling back (which happened a few weeks ago). I think his ability to be there and have such a strong, empathetic presence has really helped me to connect to him in a way that I have never connected to anyone else before. Since starting therapy, I have developed that level of connection in an existing friendship, and started a new friendship with that connection.

Sunrise, if she's a second year student and has already gone through this process in her first year, she should definitely be more present! I think you're probably right, she's got the "therapy talk" down pat but she's missing the authenticity that a really good therapist has . . . or at least, develops over time in training. Too bad they don't ask for feedback from the "clients". Might be something you could suggest to the instructor! Good luck in the course and enjoy.

My T has a very strong, but very calming presence. It's subtle, but I definitely feel that my T is in the room with me, and almost feel her Self reaching out to calm mine at times. I would NOT be able to work with a blank slate type of person. I've spent too much of my life learning to read micro-expressions from everyone around me. If I didn't feel the person was present and didn't feel their Self, I'd pull away and basically stop engaging, as that is what I would feel the other person wanted from me.

I'm grateful my T is NOT a blank slate!

This is not something I would have expected. There at least two very different philosophical viewpoints on death, and it would be most improper for T to impose her views on the patient.

It also suggests than only Believers and Atheists can be therapists, and Agnostics need not apply.

What is "presence" in this context?

Is it like charisma: some combination of confidence, certainty and purpose?

My T has enormous presence: her soul is ten feet tall. But I really don't know where that comes from. And I doubt I saw it on day one.

I think that I philosophically agree with you, Can'tExplain, but I also believe that we aren't able to help another person explore their own beliefs if we don't know our own. I do believe that a therapist or anyone in the human services needs to really have a solid grasp on their philosophical beliefs and/or commitments. How can one help another explore what they think or believe if she doesn't even know what she believes. Now, saying that, I totally agree with the belief that a solid and well trained therapist doesn't allow his/her own beliefs get tangled up with the clients. I believe that a well trained atheist/agnostic could counsel one of the pope's personal assistants. It's all about knowing who you are and being comfortable in your own beliefs. If you know your beliefs and have no need to press them on anyone else, you're free to help another individual discover their own personal beliefs.

And I say that I agree because I think it is a rare bird that is able to hold tight their own beliefs when another is talking about something he/she disagrees with deep within. Most people can't help but push their own views on another. I sure know that it is something that I struggle with daily!

No, it says only that the nurse should have a philosophy about death. It doesn't specify the particular philosophy the nurse should have. (I think that means you should have worked out your own stuff before practicing your profession, a view that I think therapists subscribe to also, not just nurses.) It also doesn't say that the clinician should impose their views on the patient.

It says that one should have a philosophy, but doesn't specify that only certain sorts of denominations qualify. I didn't interpret the statement to be about religion (or a lack of religion). Can'tExplain, I think you are reading something into it that isn't meant to be there. I think people with diverse philosophies could fit. Perhaps part of one's personal philosophy might be something like,"Death is a seminal experience that we all must face. The journey to death can be lonely, painful, and frightening, and I will be there for the dying to help ease their suffering and fear." My father died a few months ago and the hospice nurses were wonderful. A great comfort to patient and family.

Thanks, My kids. That's cool you learned how to be more present yourself and it has helped you in a friendship.

I think my T has a strong, empathetic presence too. I wonder if that is something that a T can learn to do with techniques learned in school or if it is just "natural" and can't be learned?

I know that when I first went to therapy, my T used to sit in a roller chair and sometimes roll quite close to me and sit in this "open" posture--his arms open and his legs slightly too, leaning forward towards me. When he did that, I felt his presence even more strongly. Others have described their T sometimes adopts a similar posture. I have thought maybe this is something they teach in therapist school. Once when my T and I were discussing something difficult from a previous couples session, he said that I needed a stronger presence from him, and if he saw me having similar trouble again, that he would provide more of himself to me to help me through. I think he can just turn it on like that, and crank it up a notch or two if the client needs that. It's strange to think of a T having an adjustable rheostat on their "presence".

I don't think I would recognize if the presence and self were there or not. I am not sure I have ever really thought about it. I shall have to try to remember next time and see.

This is reminding me of my photo album. My baby pictures, what few there are of my parents holding me, have me perched way out on the edge of their knee. Or I'm standing next to mum or dad, but I don't see a connection between us, like I do in pictures where an aunt is holding my baby (boy) cousin cheek to cheek, or then just how stiff I am in so many photos. I guess what i'm saying is, my parents hid their presence from me. My mother says they just didn't fight in front of me, but it was more than that. Because she was definitely hostile to him in my presence; I was just really surprised the few times I DID hear them talk about me. REALLY really surprised, like it was this whole other world I knew nothing about, but it was THEIR opinion of ME.

Very poignant.

I'm not sure I would have thought of it either unless this student-counselor had shown me what it is like when the T is not there. I see my T next week and when I am there, I am going to bask in his presence and be so glad he lets his self be there with us. I am very appreciative now.

Really? I think that most people who work with clients or some other set of people that they talk to regularly (maybe excluding techie people who give support, maybe, I'm not sure) have to learn to effectively shut it.

I know my own clients and to some extent the new lawyers I work with are constantly offering opinions to me and I (internally squelch any response that offers up my ideas on diverse topics like child rearing, public schools, toys that make noise, politics, religion (including my own), etc. etc. etc.). I don't really find it difficult not to engage in discussions and/or not push my viewpoints on others. It's not part of my job and it's really kind of the opposite of my job-- it's my job to understand my clients, and pushing my viewpoints on anything (except legal stuff) works against that.

Anne

This is an interesting thread. My T has a strong presence and Self in my sessions. Very much so. I realized it from the first session; it's why I chose to come back. I think Ts who practice Internal Family Systems are more aware of their own "Self" so they can work with the client's parts and Self in an intimate way. I felt like my T was there, working with me, trying to help me get inside of my self. She wasn't spouting off cliches, but just the opposite. She is always with me, close to me, connecting with me in an amazing unique way.