[CantExplain]

Hi guys!

I posted earlier about my last session, but I think I may have missed the point.

Yes, we talked about my "needing to be right", but in retrospect I don't think that was the biggest issue. The big issue was me leaving the Bad Group.

I said I'd left the group because I "couldn't bear it".

She said, "I don't know what that means: you couldn't bear it."

This was really triggering because "I don't know what that means" is a phrase Bad Facilitator used a lot and it always used to make me angry. If you don't know what my words mean, buy a dictionary, jerk. If you are hinting that I don't express myself clearly, I reject that.

Speaking like Bad Facilitator is at best an unfortunate accident, and at worst, deliberate mockery.

Secondly, by disclaiming knowledge of my words, she devalued my feelings. If she has suffered, she should know what I mean by unbearable pain. And if she hasn't suffered, she has no right to judge my pain at all.

She also pointed out that I dumped the group. I wasn't dumped. Yeah, so? Is that supposed to make me feel better? I tried to make it work and I couldn't. So it makes no difference to me who dumped whom. I feel like a failure either way.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Hi guys!

I posted earlier about my last session, but I think I may have missed the point.

Yes, we talked about my "needing to be right", but in retrospect I don't think that was the biggest issue. The big issue was me leaving the Bad Group.

I said I'd left the group because I "couldn't bear it".

She said, "I don't know what that means: you couldn't bear it."

This was really triggering because "I don't know what that means" is a phrase Bad Facilitator used a lot and it always used to make me angry. If you don't know what my words mean, buy a dictionary, jerk. If you are hinting that I don't express myself clearly, I reject that.

Speaking like Bad Facilitator is at best an unfortunate accident, and at worst, deliberate mockery.

Secondly, by disclaiming knowledge of my words, she devalued my feelings. If she has suffered, she should know what I mean by unbearable pain. And if she hasn't suffered, she has no right to judge my pain at all.

She also pointed out that I dumped the group. I wasn't dumped. Yeah, so? Is that supposed to make me feel better? I tried to make it work and I couldn't. So it makes no difference to me who dumped whom. I feel like a failure either way.

First question, does your T know Bad Facilitator?

Second question, did BF just say "I don't know what that means" just to you or to all members of the group?

Third question, I'm not in the room with you and your T, but could it be that she just wanted clarification?

IMHO, your issue seems to be with your T and the fact that you don't think she understands because you think maybe she hasn't suffered in her life. I've seen this theme in several of your posts. Have you talked to her about suffering? Will she disclose information about herself? My T has told me so much about herself that I have no doubt that she has suffered. I watched her suffer through chemo and try to keep working. She looked like hell some days.

I know it seems like I'm asking more questions than answering, but I want to know so maybe I can help you better if I can.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you. Your T's response that she didn't understand what "couldn't bear it" would sound belittling to me and I'll feel very hurt and let down.

[SallyBrown]

A few days ago I had an interviews for a highly competitive group that I wanted to work in. I gave a presentation that went about 75 minutes with all the questions I was bombarded with, and when I was finally out of slides I was already exhausted. The group leader then looked at me, cocked her head and said, "So, what do you want?"

I know what those words mean. I know what it is to want something, and what it means to identify that which is wanted. I did not, however, know what she was referring to. If I just answered based on the meaning of her words, I could have said, "A million dollars" or "a new house in a nice neighborhood with good schools" or "happiness" or "a croissant" or "a kitten -- no make that two kittens." But none of these would have addressed what she wanted from me or what she was trying to express to me, so I had to say, "What do you mean?"

I think what your T was trying to express not that she didn't know the meaning of your words, or that she did not know the meaning of unbearable pain as a feeling. Actually, you didn't use the word "pain", so how was she to know that you meant that it was "pain" you couldn't bear, not frustration or boredom or something else? I believe what your T might have said instead was, "What couldn't you bear?" or "What are you referring to specifically?"

I'm sorry her word choice was so triggering. But did she know that it would be? I don't see how it could be anything other than an accident unless you had already told her, "I can't stand it when people tell me they don't know what I mean." Even then I'd guess it was an accident, it's something that just comes out of one's mouth when one wants more information, and she may have forgotten it would trigger you.

I totally get the feeling of failure either way, though. Whenever something involving me doesn't work, I feel like it's my fault... but rationally, you must know that there are plenty of things in life we can't control, and if something that is out of our control doesn't work and we need to leave it behind, that doesn't make it a failure. You've created a no-win situation: stay in the group and be miserable (failure to help yourself) or leave the group and blame yourself for things that were not under your control (failure to make it work). One of these was the better decision, and making the better decision hardly seems like a failure to me.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

She said, "I don't know what that means: you couldn't bear it."

I would take that statement as a request for additional information.

If she has suffered, she should know what I mean by unbearable pain.

I think the confusing thing here is that the original statement didn't contain the word pain. I didn't know you meant pain until I read this sentence, I needed additional information.

Try viewing this from a different angle maybe: Saying "I don't know what that means" isn't a matter of ignorance nor is it a comment on your communication skills. It is just asking for further explanation and clarification of what you are saying. It seems to show a desire on her part to really try to understand what you are feeling/thinking, etc. That isn't devaluing your feelings; on the contrary, that is her trying to honor your feelings by being sure she truly grasps what you are trying to say. If you cut someone off at that point assuming they are showing you some kind of disrespect or something, the dialogue will come to an abrupt halt, and sure enough, she won't understand because you didn't help clarify what you were saying.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Yes, we talked about my "needing to be right", but in retrospect I don't think that was the biggest issue. The big issue was me leaving the Bad Group.

She also pointed out that I dumped the group. I wasn't dumped. Yeah, so? Is that supposed to make me feel better? I tried to make it work and I couldn't.

We can only learn from our own mistakes, experiences, and choices. I see some parallels in your "needing to be right" and your deciding to leave the group because it wasn't right for you.

I was struck by your, "I tried to make it work" which brings up a picture in my mind of heavy lifting, when in fact it was just a group of people sitting around and talking about how they feel and how they feel about what the others say they feel, etc. Who decided you should be the heavy lifter?

The unbearable feeling is what you are experiencing, not necessarily what the situation is causing. It is possible that I could put a feather on some people's heads and they would find it unbearable but for other people, I could put a brick on their head and they wouldn't mind (this is from a person who use to hit herself in the head with thick dictionaries to impress her grade school classmates :-) The unbearable is not in the nature of the feather or the brick but in the person's individual experience.

I was surprised when you asked if her comment about your dumping the group was supposed to make you feel better and that you felt a failure; that response had not occurred to me! I was proud of you for deciding you did not like working with this group, that it wasn't for you, and thus, got out.

But, I also feel you are translating feathers into bricks and that sticking around could have produced a good learning experience opportunity. It almost seems to me that you are bouncing off your experiences rather than getting into and experiencing them?

You make it about the group instead of looking at your feeling of "unbearable" and wondering why that feeling at that time for you. I think that was what your T was expressing when she did not know what the words meant. It would not be unbearable for her and she wanted to understand how it is for you, what your experience is like. You bounced off that and wandered into the literal meaning of the words and wishing she'd buy dictionaries. . .

Feeling a failure when you choose an action for yourself because someone else seems to question (I say "seems to" because I think, again, she was asking about your experience rather than being critical) that action seems a bounce of sorts (observation, not criticism!) to me also because I believe what you choose to do is always right for you at that moment or you'd choose to do something else! No one else is living/in charge of your life and you're the only expert on you. You cannot be a failure except you yourself define it as such and who wants to define themselves failures?

Sometimes things are unbearable for us and we have to move away from an experience but that does not make us a failure, maybe we just have more to learn before trying that sort of experience again.

But other people, usually, especially, therapists, want to get to know us, understand us, and try to help us learn to understand and experience our lives in an optimal, to us, fashion. With teachers and therapists I have chosen and most experiences of mine, I try to move toward them, even when it is difficult, painful, confusing, or frightening. I once complained to my T that talking with her was like having little electric darts constantly shot at me. I talked to her for 9 years, only took 7 before the darting stopped

I think that this kind of follow up question, called a "probe", is what you are trained to do if you conduct "interviews" with people and/or are trying to understand a person's experience. It's standard graduate school methodology for people in the social sciences, including anthropologists, sociologists, psychologists, physicians. Lawyers who get advanced training in interviewing clients are also taught to "probe" anytime someone uses language that has a labeling function.

If you go to the doctor and say "my side hurts a lot", do they just write a prescription and send you home? No, they will ask you where on your "side" that it hurts, and is the pain sharp, dull, fiery, comes and goes, etc. Maybe they will ask you how bad the pain is on a scale from one to 10.

I think that you're interpreting the words "I don't know what you mean" to be mocking because it sounds like a put down, like your words aren't adequate. I think a better way to say exactly the same thing is "can you tell me a little more about what unbearable pain means to you." Even if I know what unbearable pain feels like to me (although actually I don't, because I think if pain is unbearable then you can't be alive, which you obviously are), I don't know what it's like for you. And my job is to understand your experience of unbearable pain, not to just substitute my experience for yours and assume they are the same.

People use the same words in radically different ways; there is no mocking intended in asking what they mean by those words. Consider another example, "I was abused." Well, I've been abused. I know what my experience is. If I assume that the person who utters those words has the same experience as I do, that's totally f'ed up. For the other person and for me. I guess I'm partly saying that it doesn't necessarily make sense for people to assume that they know what other people's words mean.

I once worked with a battered woman in jail (actually, I work with lots of women in this capacity), but my experience in working with her was rather unique. Very early on in our interview, she said, "and then he beat me up." I might have said "what do you mean, he beat you up?" although I think I probably asked it as "what happened when he beat you up?" She looked at me incredulously and said something like, "and they say that you're one of the best in working on cases like mine! (insert seriously hostile tone here) And you don't even know what it means to be beaten up!!"

Bringing it back to T, mine asks me all the time what I mean by certain things. Sometimes I give him my look because I recognize that I feel somewhat like you do, that he's being deliberately stupid or something. But I know he is really trying to understand me when he asks and that's what's driving his question. I really have come to appreciate that he does ask me to delve more deeply underneath my own labels-- which I can sometimes realize can be actually wrong, and so it helps me understand my own experience better. I guess I find this kind of questioning helpful because it gives me a deeper perspective on things.

Anne

[Sannah]

Sounds like you were triggered by this phrase. What do these 2 situations remind you of from your past?

[stopdog]

I can see being very upset at the unfortunate phrase used by the therapist. Had you told her how much you hate the phrase? The one I see has one that my mother used to use - it sends me over the brink when that therapist uses it. I do not find "unable to bear" a very specific explanation and can see how the therapist might be asking you to narrow it more, but I think she should be able to work with you on her choice of wording.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

First question, does your T know Bad Facilitator?

There has been no hint that they know each other at all well.

Second question, did BF just say "I don't know what that means" just to you or to all members of the group?

Mostly to me. I can recall at most one time it was directed to anyone else.

(Incidentally, the initials BF are most unfortunate!)

Third question, I'm not in the room with you and your T, but could it be that she just wanted clarification?

Yes, probably, but a trigger is a trigger, right? And as I say, it is at best an unfortunate coincidence.

IMHO, your issue seems to be with your T and the fact that you don't think she understands because you think maybe she hasn't suffered in her life. I've seen this theme in several of your posts. Have you talked to her about suffering? Will she disclose information about herself? My T has told me so much about herself that I have no doubt that she has suffered. I watched her suffer through chemo and try to keep working. She looked like hell some days.

I have posted about that, but now I think that is a secondary issue.

My T has disclosed one incident from her twenties. In my head, I know she must have suffered as all humans do, but she hasn't let me see it. She doesn't let me see her weaknesses. Funnily enough, that may be her biggest weakness as a T. She is dangerously superhuman.

I know it seems like I'm asking more questions than answering, but I want to know so maybe I can help you better if I can.

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

There has been no hint that they know each other at all well.

Okay, so "on purpose" is out unless you shared that particular phrase with T.

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Mostly to me. I can recall at most one time it was directed to anyone else.

(Incidentally, the initials BF are most unfortunate!)

That would bother me too, then. I would think Bad Facilitator (sorry about the initials ) was picking on me also. I'm sensitive to what I have to say not being understood.

[QUOTE=CantExplain;2200077]Yes, probably, but a trigger is a trigger, right? And as I say, it is at best an unfortunate coincidence.[QUOTE]

A trigger is a trigger. Put an empty chair in front of me and tell me to talk to it, I freak out. Inexplicably. Defies all logic.

Originally Posted by CantExplain

I have posted about that, but now I think that is a secondary issue.

My T has disclosed one incident from her twenties. In my head, I know she must have suffered as all humans do, but she hasn't let me see it. She doesn't let me see her weaknesses. Funnily enough, that may be her biggest weakness as a T. She is dangerously superhuman.

I think the transparency my T has shown has been the most pivotal factor in my own course of treatment. I know psychoanalysts tend not to do that; preferring to be a "blank slate" so that transference can occur. My first T was strictly CBT/DBT and not very open about herself. My second T did AIT and redecision therapy and she was a bit more open. It is of note that I had a hard time opening up to either one. Current T is very open and I respond to that. I couldn't deal with a superhuman T. I'd spend too much time feeling bad about myself (like I don't do that enough on my own).

From what you and others have posted, it seems you have come a long way with your T. I would try to keep the lines of communication open. I know it's hard and I know I'm not being much help, but I can give you a

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by SallyBrown

I'm sorry her word choice was so triggering. But did she know that it would be?

I don't see how it could be anything other than an accident unless you had already told her, "I can't stand it when people tell me they don't know what I mean."

I had told her a couple of times about how angry I was with Bad Facilitator when he said that. So consciously or unconsciously she could have been mocking me.

Even then I'd guess it was an accident, it's something that just comes out of one's mouth when one wants more information, and she may have forgotten it would trigger you.

Maybe. I'm going to raise it. Indeed, I mentioned it at the time: "That sounds like something Bad F would say. He often said he didn't know what I meant and it made me angry." What I did not point out was that she already knew that.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by pbutton

I think the confusing thing here is that the original statement didn't contain the word pain. I didn't know you meant pain until I read this sentence, I needed additional information.

I think that in the session, the context made it clear.

Do you feel any empathy towards me?

[stopdog]

Feeling mocked by the t is a horrible thing. I am sorry to hear you are experiencing it. I have told the one I see to never use a certain phrase at me again.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

Saying "I don't know what that means" isn't a matter of ignorance nor is it a comment on your communication skills. It is just asking for further explanation and clarification of what you are saying.

Did I mention I was triggered?

[elliemay]

I'm very sorry that you were triggered by what your therapist said.

Someone's signature line on these boards reads "Once bitten by a snake, one fears a piece of string".

Very very true.

In the end, all that really matters in this case is how you interpreted that phrase.

It may very well have been the case that your therapist was frustrated at you for leaving the group and snapped at you.

I guess what matters now is if and how you are going to resolve this particular issue.

If I sit back and look at this it seemed to me that you are frustrated at not being heard and understood.

Feeling understood is soooo important. I used to wish that the scars were on the outside so people could actually see what I've endured.

If she's not going to share much with you about her life and her experiences with suffering, what else do you think she could do to help you see that she gets it? I mean really gets it.

You have a right to have that from her I think.

[SallyBrown]

I had told her a couple of times about how angry I was with Bad Facilitator when he said that. So consciously or unconsciously she could have been mocking me.

I will not argue with you over whether this is a possibility, and as many have said here it would be missing the point to delve too deeply into her meaning. But knowing your T -- it's POSSIBLE she could have been mocking you, but does that seem likely to you?

Triggers SUCK. They make you question all of these things that you want to feel secure about... what's important now is that your T acknowledge the trigger so you guys can work THROUGH it. At the same time, I think it might help you to try to understand your pain from this incident by stepping back a little and asking yourself, is it likely that T was really trying to hurt me? Do I realistically think T does not know unbearable pain, and therefore cannot empathize? I'm not saying this to imply that you have to do all the work -- what worries me is that you are feeling truly awful about something that seems unlikely to be true, and I wish you could spare yourself a little bit of the awfulness by making it less about T mocking you or having no empathy, and more about why this is such a trigger for you, why this hurts so much and what it's recalling from the past. There's Bad Facilitator... what else does it call to mind? Family stuff?

I'm sorry you got triggered. I wrote recently in another thread that misunderstandings between me and my T can be long, drawn-out pain-fests. For me, it helps a lot when I can try to tease out what's coming from me as a trigger or a behavior I am repeating that is making things harder, and what T could have done to help that would help in the future. Still hurts, but it's better than holding onto the idea of my T as a tormentor instead of a guy who sometimes does the wrong thing but is trying to help.

[CantExplain]

Dear T,

I am aware that I’m not going to see you for a couple of months. I want to spend those two months at peace with you, not stewing over some unresolved issue.

The homework was a disaster and I’m not going to ask you for any more.

I kept a look out for times when I was wrong. There were only a couple and they didn’t bother me a bit.

The question “what do I mean when I say I can’t bear it” had me screwed up in knots, and because it was a homework question I couldn’t just shelve it. It was deeply triggering and especially bad because of the way you asked it. I gave you several answers in the session, but you obviously didn’t accept any of them because the question was still outstanding when I left. This makes me think that you had a particular answer in mind. It wasn’t just a request for information. It was a loaded question with an agenda – your agenda – behind it. Yes, I know I’m being paranoid but you’ve been feeding my paranoia.

What, then, is the answer you were looking for?

I feel a sense of failure because the others in the bad group seemed to accept what I could not. I couldn’t bear it but obviously they could.

When I told you I was having trouble with the bad group, you repeatedly told me I had made the same complaints about the good group. That was unfortunate, because it put the blame on me when I had to leave the bad group, and added to my sense of failure.

In retrospect, I feel that you did not validate the difficulties I was having in that group.

One of my earliest and most sustained complaints against you was that you didn’t seem to accept the reality of my pain. I still don’t think you’ve taken that on board.

Do you think I’m some sort of hypochondriac and that acknowledging my pain would only encourage me in my delusion?

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Dear T,

I am aware that I’m not going to see you for a couple of months. I want to spend those two months at peace with you, not stewing over some unresolved issue.

The homework was a disaster and I’m not going to ask you for any more.

I kept a look out for times when I was wrong. There were only a couple and they didn’t bother me a bit.

The question “what do I mean when I say I can’t bear it” had me screwed up in knots, and because it was a homework question I couldn’t just shelve it. It was deeply triggering and especially bad because of the way you asked it. I gave you several answers in the session, but you obviously didn’t accept any of them because the question was still outstanding when I left. This makes me think that you had a particular answer in mind. It wasn’t just a request for information. It was a loaded question with an agenda – your agenda – behind it. Yes, I know I’m being paranoid but you’ve been feeding my paranoia.

What, then, is the answer you were looking for?

I feel a sense of failure because the others in the bad group seemed to accept what I could not. I couldn’t bear it but obviously they could.

When I told you I was having trouble with the bad group, you repeatedly told me I had made the same complaints about the good group. That was unfortunate, because it put the blame on me when I had to leave the bad group, and added to my sense of failure.

In retrospect, I feel that you did not validate the difficulties I was having in that group.

One of my earliest and most sustained complaints against you was that you didn’t seem to accept the reality of my pain. I still don’t think you’ve taken that on board.

Do you think I’m some sort of hypochondriac and that acknowledging my pain would only encourage me in my delusion?

Did you send this to your T.? It would be helpful to hear answers if you can hear with an open mind.

[SallyBrown]

The question “what do I mean when I say I can’t bear it” had me screwed up in knots, and because it was a homework question I couldn’t just shelve it. It was deeply triggering and especially bad because of the way you asked it. I gave you several answers in the session, but you obviously didn’t accept any of them because the question was still outstanding when I left. This makes me think that you had a particular answer in mind. It wasn’t just a request for information. It was a loaded question with an agenda – your agenda – behind it. Yes, I know I’m being paranoid but you’ve been feeding my paranoia.

Ah, this is so strange, because this same thing also happened to me at my interview. Except it was the interviewer who kept asking me the same vague question over and over, and I was totally on my last nerve trying to give her a satisfactory answer. This kind of thing makes me really upset for a lot of reasons, and the fact that she didn't ask just once gives me more insight into your anger.

In retrospect, I feel that you did not validate the difficulties I was having in that group.

One of my earliest and most sustained complaints against you was that you didn’t seem to accept the reality of my pain. I still don’t think you’ve taken that on board.

I can see that you feel that in her current behavior you feel she is treating you as a hypochondriac without valid complaints, but I wonder what you imagine it would look like on the flip side, if she accepted and validated your difficulties. Would it be a certain kind of verbal reassurance? Some other indicator? How could you re-imagine this to make it look helpful and comforting?

Not feeling heard/understood is THE worst feeling for me in therapy. Especially when I feel like I am struggling and struggling to help T understand and he's just not getting it.

And when he finally DOES understand (sometimes after a string of frustrating sessions where we keep "missing" each other), it is the HUGEST sense of relief.

I'm really sorry you were triggered. Keep talking to T...you two can get to the other side of this.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Perna

But, I also feel you are translating feathers into bricks and that sticking around could have produced a good learning experience opportunity. It almost seems to me that you are bouncing off your experiences rather than getting into and experiencing them?

This is precisely the argument that spurred me to "try and make it work", and precisely the argument that makes it "my failure" when I left. The is the argument that makes it "my job" to "do the heavy lifting".

That is exactly what I object to. Can you understand that?

You say you are proud I decided to leave the group and then say I should have stayed. You can't have it both ways!

[growlycat]

Yes, I see what you mean..maybe she could have said "can you tell me more? Can you elaborate on what felt so bad?"

It could be a poor choice of words on her part but I sense irritation on her part too, at least by the choice of words she seems a little exasperated. Not your fault! T's are human too and boy can they F it up.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

I think that you're interpreting the words "I don't know what you mean" to be mocking because it sounds like a put down, like your words aren't adequate. I think a better way to say exactly the same thing is "can you tell me a little more about what unbearable pain means to you."

It is worse than that, because she is parrotting Bad F. I felt Bad F never made any real attempt to understand me.

T's normal wording is, "Help me to understand that".

I think her way is nicer, but that's beside the point. Imagine my horror having dumped Bad F only to find T speaking with his voice.