I'm one of them... I break therapist's hearts.

Not just once, not twice. Not three times. Four, five, six, MULTIPLE TIMES. My psychiatrist even said it. I break therapists and caseworkers and psychiatrists hearts.

That's what's wrong with me. That's why therapists never want to stay with me. BECAUSE I BREAK THEIR HEARTS.

I do this thing. We talked about it in my psychiatry appt today. It's a cycle.

I have potential to get better, therapist/caseworker/etc sees this, therapist attaches themselves to me, they want to rescue me, "O no, no you don't, this is my life", I push them away, They push back, "I have to save her, she has to get better", I push harder to gain back the control, therapist wants my healing to be on their time, I want the healing to be on my time, we end up fighting constantly about what's right and what's wrong for me.

I told this last therapist I had. I warned her not to get attached to me and she did we ended it fighting over whether I should be in a hospital or not. But my caseworkers and last therapist did the exact same thing. My psychiatrist has remained neutral and has fought the cycle. But explained the cycle that happens over and over to me.

But if my psychiatrist fought it, then it's possible to fight this cycle... I just need people who know boundaries? And apparently that is NOBODY in the mental health field. I have one caseworker... another male who hasn't attached his every molecule to me and I trust him. So two MALES. I told them I liked males better, even though males are the ones who hurt me. Would they listen? No... because they always know what's best for me!

Sounds like a lot of fighting going on. So are you fighting against everyone who is trying to help you? What would happen if you stopped fighting the ones who care for you?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by LydiaB

I break therapist's hearts.

Interesting...
The usual complaint is that they break ours.

I fought all my therapists but on the whole they were very patient with it.

In the end I dumped all my anger on my T and I was OK after that. T survived.

I'm not sure, LydiaB, but I think you're describing the "come hither, I need you" and the "get away from me, you incompetent or clueless idiotic therapist" dance that many of us engage in when we're in therapy. I don't know about you but I alternate between the two dances quite often. I'm trying to be a bit humerous here, but I'm really being honest about my wild swings between engaging with my therapist and pushing her away with a hot, ugly vengence. Either she is doing what a therapist should be doing OR she is a TOTAL s*i*! and when the ***** hits the fan, I never want to see her again.

It is a terrible battle... . oh, and just so you know, this battle is totally internal and not a wild, crazy rant that scares people or my therapist. No one sees it or hears it except me. People who see me think of me as rational and in control person They just don't know what goes on inside!

I don't think it is a conscious or manipulative dance, but I do think that many of us on this board and in the real world engage in this dance once we get into therapy. But once we get called on it or we begin to recognize that WE must have something to do with what's happeneing when the therapy goes array, that's the key. That's the signal that we might be open to beginning to change. . . afterall, how many times did I have to walk away from a therapist because he/she was totally clueless and incompetent before I had to face the fact that I was the one consistent factor in these frequent ruptures . I had to recognize that it wasn't about their incompetence or poor training (although that might have contributed to the problems), but other people they worked with were getting better and achieving. I had to see that I was the common factor. I had a PART in the failure. I wasn't the total reason for the failure, but I had a part in it.

I see it all the time here on the boards, people get angry and enraged with something that their therapist has said and their first inclination is to leave or dump on their therapist. Heck, that's my first inclination. But I'm beginning to learn that, yes, my therapist has been clumsy at times or she has been off her game when she's made such and such comment, but in the long run, she likes me and wants to continue to work with me. Gee, what a concept. Someone wants to continue to have a productive and honest relationship with me!

Why do we do it? Because we "want" help, care, compassion, professional help. Why do we push it away? Because of our intense, inborn fear of being overwhelmed or consumed by the person supposedly there to help us. I know that I have really been suspicious and questioning of the person who was suppose to be helping me as really being committed to that . .. or at least, I question their true and long term commitment. So, what did I do? I tested them and tested them, and then I pushed them away, telling them that they really didn't mean their commitment or I found something they said or did that supported MY belief that they weren't commited or true to their word. Time for me to be more aware of what I'm doing or what I've said to screw up the relationship. I'm NOT saying we're responsible, but we do have a part . . . a responsibility for making the relationship work, and if it keeps failing, I need to look at my own behavior and what I'm doing that keeps setting a trap. Just my take on things.

[adel34]

I agree with Can't Explain, usually it's the therapist who breaks your heart.
I've done this dance myself, desperate for help, and then pushing it away. It's good you have your psychiatrist, who is able to be objective and see this cycle, as well as your case manager.
I was thinking maybe you'd have luck working with a peer specialist. A peer specialist is another just regular person who also has a mental health concern, and is trained to be an advocate and communicate with providers. Maybe they could stand with you on the issue of wanting a male therapist should you get a new one? Just a thought.

Well I can start by saying my therapy never ends on my own accord. They always get rid of me first... unless they become too over baring, which has happened on a few occasions with caseworkers and I've asked for them to be taken off my case.

Therapists see this huge horizon with me. And I'm not going to sit here and say I don't work hard. I do. But I'm good at making everything look perfect. I'm good at walking the walk, talking the talk. My main goal isn't to make them fall head over heels for me as a patient, but my main goal is to make sure I have control over whether they leave me. I'm afraid that if I'm sick that they'll go away. I'm afraid if I don't try hard enough that they'll go away. And this has been enforced over and over again. I was part of a cult once that promised to help young girls with psychiatric issues and this was something they taught me, they only want you if you want to get better. So I show them this huge horizon. And I am excellent at doing it. But eventually things cave... I can't hold onto it. My potential they saw falls, because I fall, yes even I fall. Model patient out the window. Their need to save me is jeopardized. And it starts the cycle. You would be surprised to find the number of professionals, who aren't professional, who become transferent.

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

I'm not sure, LydiaB, but I think you're describing the "come hither, I need you" and the "get away from me, you incompetent or clueless idiotic therapist" dance that many of us engage in when we're in therapy. I don't know about you but I alternate between the two dances quite often. I'm trying to be a bit humerous here, but I'm really being honest about my wild swings between engaging with my therapist and pushing her away with a hot, ugly vengence. Either she is doing what a therapist should be doing OR she is a TOTAL s*i*! and when the ***** hits the fan, I never want to see her again.

It is a terrible battle... . oh, and just so you know, this battle is totally internal and not a wild, crazy rant that scares people or my therapist. No one sees it or hears it except me. People who see me think of me as rational and in control person They just don't know what goes on inside!

I don't think it is a conscious or manipulative dance, but I do think that many of us on this board and in the real world engage in this dance once we get into therapy. But once we get called on it or we begin to recognize that WE must have something to do with what's happeneing when the therapy goes array, that's the key. That's the signal that we might be open to beginning to change. . . afterall, how many times did I have to walk away from a therapist because he/she was totally clueless and incompetent before I had to face the fact that I was the one consistent factor in these frequent ruptures . I had to recognize that it wasn't about their incompetence or poor training (although that might have contributed to the problems), but other people they worked with were getting better and achieving. I had to see that I was the common factor. I had a PART in the failure. I wasn't the total reason for the failure, but I had a part in it.

I see it all the time here on the boards, people get angry and enraged with something that their therapist has said and their first inclination is to leave or dump on their therapist. Heck, that's my first inclination. But I'm beginning to learn that, yes, my therapist has been clumsy at times or she has been off her game when she's made such and such comment, but in the long run, she likes me and wants to continue to work with me. Gee, what a concept. Someone wants to continue to have a productive and honest relationship with me!

Why do we do it? Because we "want" help, care, compassion, professional help. Why do we push it away? Because of our intense, inborn fear of being overwhelmed or consumed by the person supposedly there to help us. I know that I have really been suspicious and questioning of the person who was suppose to be helping me as really being committed to that . .. or at least, I question their true and long term commitment. So, what did I do? I tested them and tested them, and then I pushed them away, telling them that they really didn't mean their commitment or I found something they said or did that supported MY belief that they weren't commited or true to their word. Time for me to be more aware of what I'm doing or what I've said to screw up the relationship. I'm NOT saying we're responsible, but we do have a part . . . a responsibility for making the relationship work, and if it keeps failing, I need to look at my own behavior and what I'm doing that keeps setting a trap. Just my take on things.

I already admitted I was the main person at fault here, you really don't have to remind me?

Originally Posted by adel34

I agree with Can't Explain, usually it's the therapist who breaks your heart.
I've done this dance myself, desperate for help, and then pushing it away. It's good you have your psychiatrist, who is able to be objective and see this cycle, as well as your case manager.
I was thinking maybe you'd have luck working with a peer specialist. A peer specialist is another just regular person who also has a mental health concern, and is trained to be an advocate and communicate with providers. Maybe they could stand with you on the issue of wanting a male therapist should you get a new one? Just a thought.

Therapists don't break my heart... when they get rid of me it hurts for a few days and then I get over it. I have a failure to get close to anyone in adulthood... I always wondered if this upset my therapists and caseworkers, you're working with a client and you're putting a lot of stuff into them and they never can attach to you.

I already admitted I was the main person at fault here, you really don't have to remind me?[/quote]

Sorry if I've caused you hurt or pain, LydiaB, that wasn't my intention. I knew from what you've posted that I've gone through some of the same pain and anguish that you have gone through in your search for good and valid therapy. It was not my intention to identify you as being at "fault". Sometimes when I see others hurting as I've hurt or finding fault with herself in a way that I've founded fault with myself, I've wanted to step in and add my 2 cents .

But I also know that when I see myself in stark and angry opposition to what others tell me or relate to me as having happen , I often retreat in anger or hurt. I often see their comments as hurtful or insulting. When I'm able to regroup, breathe, re-evaluate, I am usually able to see that their evaluation was more on target than my own emotionally charged one.

I sincerely hope that you are able to find the help and compassion that you seek! I'm not saying that my evaluation or take on things is right or the one that you need to accept. I don't think that your treatment team is saying that either. You are the Captain of your ship. But if your direction isn't working, if your ship keeps going off course, you're the captain and you've had a LOT OF DIFFERENT crew members, you are the only stable crew member . .. doesn't that make you a little bit aware that you need to look at and evaluate your choices and decisions? You get to decide! No one tells you who you have to listen to unless you get sectioned. . . and it takes a lot nowadays to get sectioned. ..I know, I've been sectioned. Take care, LydiaB and know that I was truly not trying to make you feel worse. I was truly offering my take on the ups and downs of therapeutic intervention.
Jay

[KazzaX]

I find this a bit confusing because Ive always been taught that therapists (and other health professionals) are supposed to have a professional boundary around them so that their personal feelings don't become involved. They are supposed to keep their personal "heart" out of it otherwise it taints the whole process. It biases them and therefore ruins the therepeutic process.

I would say that if a T gets their heart broken then they really need to look at themselves and ask themselves why they violated their own professional boundary. I have told Ts some HORRIBLE stuff over the years and if they were all unprofessional like the ones you mentioned, they would all be in psych wards and having nervous breakdowns left, right and center!

Wow, KazzaX, what a powerful post. Yes, we are told and taught that professionals are suppose to have boundaries ... they aren't suppose to allow their "personal" feelings to get all tied up in our ugle gunk! ... guess what it does! But the really good therapists recognize or know when they have stepped over the boundaries. Some don't get it. Ooooo how awful when that happens. When I first started this journey, I thought it happened much less than it does.. .. I get a headache realizing how often it happens. People, find a good solid psychotherapist, LCSW, MHCL, PSYD, PhD ect! Check out the person you're going to see and you'lll be much more happy!

[mixedup_emotions]

You are the Captain of your ship. But if your direction isn't working, if your ship keeps going off course, you're the captain and you've had a LOT OF DIFFERENT crew members, you are the only stable crew member . .. doesn't that make you a little bit aware that you need to look at and evaluate your choices and decisions? You get to decide!

Jaybird, I really like this....Applicable in so many ways. Thanks!

[mixedup_emotions]

Lydia, have you thought about what you're gaining by the scenario that plays out over and over again....or what you can do differently to get a different outcome?...Or, what's stopping you from doing things differently?

I'd imagine that if you have honest answers to those questions - and discuss these with your T, pdoc or other professional - that it may help pave the way to something new.

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I find this a bit confusing because Ive always been taught that therapists (and other health professionals) are supposed to have a professional boundary around them so that their personal feelings don't become involved. They are supposed to keep their personal "heart" out of it otherwise it taints the whole process. It biases them and therefore ruins the therepeutic process.

I would say that if a T gets their heart broken then they really need to look at themselves and ask themselves why they violated their own professional boundary. I have told Ts some HORRIBLE stuff over the years and if they were all unprofessional like the ones you mentioned, they would all be in psych wards and having nervous breakdowns left, right and center!

That actually happened once... I had a therapist have a complete break down with me. With my case. There was so much transference it was sick. He became paranoid and told everyone I called him a sexual predator, in the end he just made himself look really weird and guilty. And then I stopped doing therapy with him, and he still works with my team and it's been almost a year since we stopped working together, but the other day he freaked out on me. He was yelling. I was sobbing. He was chasing me around the office yelling at me. I was hysterical. And nobody was stopping him. I switched and did something with a staple and he called 911 and told them I had a weapon. Luckily my brother is on the police force and after I was carted off in an ambulance for a few scratches and extremely high blood pressure he demanded to know what happened, the next day I was apologized to. By the team, not him.

He barely even looks at me when I'm in the office. He definitely won't talk to me, And this is a man who PROMISED me that he would never walk away. I feel like I'm his ex girl friend, not his ex patient. Although I think some of it is embarrassment of how he's acted. God man, it's not your fault, it's happened to other therapists. IT'S MY FAULT.

I wish there was some way to know what I'm doing wrong that gets therapists so attached to me. Even ones that seem to have good boundaries I seem to swallow their hearts. I mean what do I have to do, get a few piercings, a mohawk and smack gum while I'm with them? Tell them I hate my life and I never want to get better? Men don't seem to become as involved, but their are exceptions. It happens constantly. I even WARNED this past therapist. I think my exact wording was "Therapists fall in love with me, but don't do that, I hate that".

Originally Posted by farmergirl

Sounds like a lot of fighting going on. So are you fighting against everyone who is trying to help you? What would happen if you stopped fighting the ones who care for you?

Because I know what's best for me. My mom, my psychiatrist are allowing me to choose what is best for my life. They know I am capable. What I am saying is that other people want to take over that control, because they want to have control over my healing because they want to "save me". But that's not possible. It's on my own time. I'm not fighting anyone. I am fighting for what I believe is right. Fighting for your rights and fighting to have what is best for you is different then just fighting people who are trying to help you. Those people aren't trying to help me. They are trying to help themselves achieve victory in saving somebody.

[Crescent Moon]

I'm confused, Lydia. You talk about how all these therapists "fall" for you, get intensely attached to you.. and then you talk about how you fear them leaving you.. and then you say that your therapists always end up "getting rid" of you. I guess I can figure out how all these therapists who are falling for you and getting really attached to you, are the same ones who get rid of you?

I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by Crescent Moon

I'm confused, Lydia. You talk about how all these therapists "fall" for you, get intensely attached to you.. and then you talk about how you fear them leaving you.. and then you say that your therapists always end up "getting rid" of you. I guess I can figure out how all these therapists who are falling for you and getting really attached to you, are the same ones who get rid of you?

I just don't get it.

I don't think you understand transference. It's not a good thing. Transference can make a therapeutic relationship go wonky. When a therapist is too attached and then I don't work up to their standards/expectations, it ends in disappointment and eventually one of us breaks and it's usually them, because I don't prefer to leave people. Although after it's done, I realized I was never really attached to begin with.

If you're assuming that I appreciate or am bragging about this transference. (Use of quotes "fall") It upsets me a lot and makes therapy very difficult for me. I loose a lot of therapists this way. I have been through more then a few, because I am never what I appear to be when I walk into their office the first time. And I can never let them save me. A lot of people in the mental health field need to save people to boost their self esteem and I look like a perfect candidate to save. I came to PC to try to talk it through and try to understand myself better or how I can work around it, since therapy is about what I can do also.

[Crescent Moon]

Originally Posted by LydiaB

I don't think you understand transference. It's not a good thing. Transference can make a therapeutic relationship go wonky. When a therapist is too attached and then I don't work up to their standards/expectations, it ends in disappointment and eventually one of us breaks and it's usually them, because I don't prefer to leave people. Although after it's done, I realized I was never really attached to begin with.

If you're assuming that I appreciate or am bragging about this transference. (Use of quotes "fall") It upsets me a lot and makes therapy very difficult for me. I loose a lot of therapists this way. I have been through more then a few, because I am never what I appear to be when I walk into their office the first time. And I can never let them save me. A lot of people in the mental health field need to save people to boost their self esteem and I look like a perfect candidate to save. I came to PC to try to talk it through and try to understand myself better or how I can work around it, since therapy is about what I can do also.

hmmmm.... Lydia.. you may not realize it, but your response has some assumptions about me (for example, that I don't understand transference). I'm wondering if you're not also making a lot of assumptions about what your therapists think, feel, and what motivates them. Some of your distress and failed therapeutic relationships might be rooted in your coming to conclusions about what all these providers think and feel, and you react to something that's not happening, which might make things pretty messy for you.

In a recent post you expressed a genuine desire to understand what you might be doing wrong that's causing all these problems for you. I don't think "wrong" is a good word to use, because anything you're doing that's causing you trouble is not being done intentionally. I believe you want therapy to work for you. My suggestion would be for you to talk yourself out of this self-perception that you are an irresistible heartbreaker and that therapists cannot stop themselves from becoming dangerously attached to you. When you find your next therapist, you might want to start off by telling them that you tend to sabotage your therapy by becoming convinced that therapists are profoundly attached to you.

And Lydia, transference is a normal and natural part of therapy. Your belief that you are breaking all these therapists hearts is your transference of something in your past onto them. Transference is a good thing, because it brings to light what needs to be healed. I've had both negative and positive transference.. and although negative transference is no cake-walk, it was valuable.

I wish you the best in your search for guidance to help you prevent any more therapeutic relationships from imploding.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by LydiaB

I don't think you understand transference. It's not a good thing. Transference can make a therapeutic relationship go wonky. When a therapist is too attached and then I don't work up to their standards/expectations, it ends in disappointment and eventually one of us breaks and it's usually them, because I don't prefer to leave people. Although after it's done, I realized I was never really attached to begin with.

Aha! Now I get you.

When the patient has transference on the therapist, that's accepted and normal and not necessarily a bad thing.

When the therapist has transference on the patient, that's much more serious. I've heard people call that "counter-transference".

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Aha! Now I get you.

When the patient has transference on the therapist, that's accepted and normal and not necessarily a bad thing.

When the therapist has transference on the patient, that's much more serious. I've heard people call that "counter-transference".

Just googled the word "projection" .....is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one "projects" one's own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings onto someone else. 'Emotions or excitations which the ego tries to ward off are "split out" and then felt as being outside the ego...perceived in another person'.

[unaluna]

So - was there a question here? are you about to choose your next T? Sounds like a very secure male is your best bet, from what you've written here. there is definitely "stuff" going on, being acted out, and if the T can't "contain" it, or absorb this energy, you WILL perceive it in the air between you, tethering you together. Not to get all ooky-dooky new-age spooky on ya, but gee yesterday on dr phil this little kid, HIS vibrations came thru the tv screen...

Originally Posted by hankster

So - was there a question here? are you about to choose your next T? Sounds like a very secure male is your best bet, from what you've written here. there is definitely "stuff" going on, being acted out, and if the T can't "contain" it, or absorb this energy, you WILL perceive it in the air between you, tethering you together. Not to get all ooky-dooky new-age spooky on ya, but gee yesterday on dr phil this little kid, HIS vibrations came thru the tv screen...

No I'm not about to choose my next T, because my team is going to tell my next T that I am always suicidal. Although I'm not. I've had one suicide attempt in the last four years. I am working it out with them.

And your post is really rude. You're saying all this stuff that's not true and then making fun of it. I thought PC was a place to come for support, but I just feel beaten down now.

Nobody is understanding what I'm trying to say.

Can a mod please close this thread? I think all that needs to be said has been said.

[pachyderm]

I hate mods closing threads!

My experience tells me that a significant number of T's do have counter-transference problems, without realizing it. Now my experience in this is a few years old, so maybe awareness of this is increasing in the mh community. The question is, what to do about it? How to find a T who will not get sucked in to an unhealthy relationship; how to find one in the initial stages, not find out when it is too late!

Or, as an alternative, see if it is possible for you still to work with an imperfect T...

[unaluna]

lydia, i'm sorry, I did not mean to be rude. I read your post and all of them very carefully. I myself feel like I would be in conflict with a female therapist. anyway, I felt I related to what you were saying. and really really did not intend to be rude or hurtful or unkind, nor was I trying to be "brutally honest" or even gently honest. I added the example of the dr phil kid, just to say, these vibes are real, what you're experiencing is real, but yeah, some people are completely insensitive to them. Those are the people who try to "force" you closed, to do it their way, to bend to their will, their rule, to LISTEN to them. They don't FEEL this energy.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I hate mods closing threads!

My experience tells me that a significant number of T's do have counter-transference problems, without realizing it. Now my experience in this is a few years old, so maybe awareness of this is increasing in the mh community. The question is, what to do about it? How to find a T who will not get sucked in to an unhealthy relationship; how to find one in the initial stages, not find out when it is too late!

Or, as an alternative, see if it is possible for you still to work with an imperfect T...

I think that's hard for me to do. Work with an imperfect T... because it would require that I get close to somebody. Or allow them to get close to me. I feel like I don't really deserve it. Like I'm a bad person and I'll hurt them in some way. MOST therapeutic relationships do have counter transference and my radar for it is set to high. I'm very sensitive to it. I get nervous if they start to show any signs of getting attached at all, because I fear that my lack of being able to get attached will hurt them. I try to protect people from myself. I'm not anti-social, I was just brainwashed.