Interesting session...but not so much for the session itself

It was an interesting session because I learned some more about T...some of the info I obtained surreptitiously. A part of me is embarrassed for that and I actually realize I'm better at manipulating people than I thought. I'm not going to break it all down like I usually do because nothing was really groundbreaking, but finding out the info was (to me).

I mentioned to T that I had started back working in the Boundaries workbook again. She was happy about that. However, it reminded her to mention this: "Can you bring the workbook (it's her book, she let me take it home) next session? I want to copy the first chapter for another client." I said, "Do you need the workbook back? Does someone else need it more than I do? I can buy my own copy."

Her response: "No, you can take it back with you, I only need to make her a copy. I don't let clients borrow my books."

I didn't say anything else...but WTF? I'm a client, you loaned me the book, you want to make sure I get it back...I'm confused.

That was the first one.

What we discussed today was touch issues. I asked how I can get my touch need (from a female since I was under-mothered) met. She told me several ways I could do that (including shifting the focus of the need to closeness in other ways; i.e. sharing of intimate personal information with another female to help me feel close to someone). The second one was actually asking my mother for a hug...I said that ain't gonna happen. This is the woman who, when someone goes to shake her hand, says, "I don't shake hands."

However, I ended the conversation by asking this: "Do I still make you uncomfortable?" She said, "No. You never made me uncomfortable. I just let you cross the therapeutic boundaries a bit; that's my fault." I said, "The last time we discussed it you said you were comfortable personally, but not professionally." She said, "You know what, I was never uncomfortable with you at all. I was uncomfortable with me. I made a mistake that caused you a block. I didn't like that." I said, "Well, it seemed really hard for you the session you told me you couldn't do it anymore." She looked away and said, "Well, no therapist likes to admit a mistake." I said, "You said one of the sweetest things to me after that session that really sticks in my mind and I think about it sometimes when I'm having a hard time: 'Do you know I only want what's best for you?'" T's face then looked just like this face: (which to me looks like a sheepish grin). I didn't remind her she had tears in her eyes that day. If she wants me to think it was hard for her because she had to admit a mistake, so be it.

At the end of session, she said she thought I was scheduled through part of August. I told her yes, for three more weeks. She said, "I can't get to my google calendar from my iPad. It's really frustrating." I said, "I may know how to fix it; do you want me to look at it?" She said, "I shouldn't; it's my client calendar." She paused for a minute, then said, "Would you see if you can fix it? I asked *a computer-geek therapist in the same practice* about it and he said my iPad didn't look right."

So she let me see her client calendar! (Don't worry, I didn't look...plus it's a code anyway). The other thing I found out that I suspected was that she actually did give me her personal email address.

So I tried several different things to fix it...for 20 minutes past session She just got an iPhone too, so I tried to show her things to do on my iPhone. But the user interface is a bit different than the iPad, so I asked, "Do you want me to run to my car and get my iPad and try to compare?" I fully expected her to say no and thank me for my time.

She looked like this again and said, "Do you mind?" I almost tripped down the steps I was so stunned. So I brought my briefcase in. By the time I gave up, it was 40 minutes past session.

So I told her that I could ask my H and either email her with instructions or I could try to help her again next session. She asked if I could email because the receptionist made an appointment after mine (she doesn't normally do 5:00 sessions). She gave me a surprisingly long hug considering the subject matter of the session and thanked me for helping her. Then, as I was walking out, she followed me then said, "You know you shouldn't be carrying that briefcase on your bad shoulder." I said, "Well, what am I supposed to do?" She said, "Get somebody to carry it for you." I said, "And just who would that be?" She shrugged and walked back to her office.

Um, thoughts?

It does sound like you are glad you went to the appointment. But I am confused - what part are you looking for comments on?

She really trusts you. A lot. You have a very special relationship with her. I was smiling when I read this.

Choppin sounds like you and your T have a great rapport! And how very nice of you to help T with the ipad. How nice to be able to help your T even if only in a 'technical sense'.

I don't know, Chopin. A few weeks ago I would have said it sounds great and I'd be jealous of your relationship with T. But now I hesitate to say that because you posted to me that we are alike. Your T acts friendly like mine, and sometimes blurs the T-client relationship. That's fine for many clients, but for me, and maybe for you--Idk, it makes me feel too good. Like, "T trusts me with her client calendar. T thinks I'm special. I'm going to try to learn more about her this way. This is so cool." Plus, you're posting about it.

So, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, therapeutic or not. I'm just noticing that your post reminds me of myself a little bit.


I don't mean to spoil the good feelings for you. I could be totally wrong, and wary because of my situation. Okay?

1. get a backback
2. she must have taken the same wily class my T took - you just can't reason with them sometimes!

This is the whole point...I'm posting because I'm confused. I'm confused because after a discussion of making a mistake about boundaries, she stretched them again. The time boundary was stretched longer than any time ever. I do have good feelings, don't get me wrong, but IDK if this is good or not.

The message I get is, "I trust you enough to do things for you I wouldn't do for anyone else." I do know I get to her somehow (emotionally) and it worries me not necessarily for my own sake, but for hers. I mean, I could do her the dirt. I know I can be manipulative. H said I am very good at it. I don't know what to think or do.

wow i also think your T trust you greatly.i would only ask how comfortable you are with the boundaries and all this. do you think your T knows what is ok and what you can handle.basically are you ok with it?

Chopin, I'm with you and rainbow on this. How you described your session was confusing to me. If T doesn't lend her books to client, then what is your relationship to her? Is the reason that she said what she did because you are also a mental health provider or that you and she have a different/special relationship and she doesn't consider you like her other clients. The first would seem perhaps OK (though not sure). I realize that the rest of my comments might align with this - that maybe because of your profession she sees you differently.

The help with the iPad really seems a boundary crossing to me in many different ways. Regarding the client calendar, what if you have a friend/co-worker with a really unique name and you saw this on her calendar? It's not your responsibility not to look, though very respectful that you did not. I just feel like she's putting an awful lot on you and for someone who is working on boundary issues, this isn't very therapeutic or helpful as what is helpful are clear, consistent boundaries (while maintaining a connection, demonstrating that she cares).

My T made a comment a few months ago in passing that was hypothetical and it really threw me more than I was willing to admit.

One last reaction is when she said that Ts don't like to admit that they've made a mistake. My current T has apologized for mistakes that she's made and we've talked them through. For example, last week we had a disagreement about appt times and she got frustrated. Perhaps 15 minutes later she apologized and we both saw it as a positive thing in the end. I learned about having disagreements, what is a healthy way to react (her modeling and some of what I've learned from her), people make mistakes and it's OK, and a disagreement doesn't mean that someone doesn't love/care about me.

I guess the best thing to do is to bring up with T the comment about clients to understand where the boundaries are, how she sees you, etc. Perhaps you could even say that you want to be treated/considered like other clients, but I also don't think that this is your responsibility... Did her running over by 40 minutes mean that the next person waited for 40 minutes? Eek!

Good luck, Chopin, you've clearly been working so hard on yourself and I hope that this will also provide you an opportunity for growth.

Did you ask her? ... it seems confusing to me also; often she seems to have more of a friend relationship with you including the loaning of books, the discussion about so many of her own issues etc. then the boundary pulling seems odd

Sorry, I realized (now having eaten - was waiting for dinner to cook and I was hungry while I was posting) that I didn't finish this thought.

Essentially, I was talking about loneliness, particularly on the weekend. My T, an animal person, has encouraged me to get a dog, but I do travel some for long periods and don't have anyone who could watch after a pet (I live alone). T said that she empathized with my loneliness and that she did think once that she wished she could ask me to dogsit for her when she and her husband go away for the weekend, but she knows that it would be crossing a boundary. I was surprised about the effect that this had on me. I was simultaneously flattered and happy that she thought about as a potential dogsitter, then sad that it couldn't happen and then starting thinking about how unfair the therapy relationship is sometimes, etc. She was sharing this with me I think just to say that she wanted to help with the loneliness, she thinks well of me, etc. But it gave me an opportunity to think of our relationship outside of the therapeutic boundaries, not such a good thing for a wandering mind... This really wasn't a big deal and was no boundary crossing--and it made me thankful for the boundaries that she does keep in place. I need her much, much more as a T than as a "friend," or whatever.

Now I'm confused. My only goal in therapy is to figure ME out. If we stretch a boundary, the ultimate purpose is not for me to sneak into the circus tent, it's to understand what it meant to me. But then I do look at my therapy more psychoanalytically? But when you say you don't know what to think, it sounds like you're asking, is she holding up the tent for you to sneak in? Is T sending mixed messages? That's what I asked my T yesterday.

I also asked if I was delusional. I decided, yes, I am! I decided I don't want to tell T EXACTLY how he needs to talk to me so I don't "misunderstand" him; I don't want to treat anybody like that.

I realized it all seems very logical to me. I can do, and have done, things for T that no one else ever did, or probably ever will. Not his exes, not his kids. I care for him more than ANYBODY. So why are they in, and I'm out?

This is how I felt about about my mother. I sacrificed so much FOR HER, while my brother took so much, and disobeyed, etc etc etc - why didn't she ever choose ME??? I mean, I know it's obvious, I know it's my repetition compulsion, blah blah blah, but something about the way we've been talking about it THIS time feels really different. T said he was getting goosebumps.

Then he goes, well that was "logical" to your past, not the present. And I'm thinking, you SO do not get me, STILL???!!! And I said, well, it makes sense when I'm wearing my aluminum foil hat, which I said I was going to start wearing in session to ward off his mixed messages

anyway, I would ask you, chopin, why the focus on what T would allow, and on what you could "get away" with, instead what honestly needs to be looked into, whatever that is.

ETA: just to clarify, the things i've "done" for him are pretty esoteric - like finding his favorite Yiddish word in an article in The New Yorker in the 5 minutes I was in the waiting room.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Firstly, I was the last client of the day so nobody was waiting on me. I've thought a bit more about the whole thing. I am not confused as to whether she stretched her boundaries; she obviously did.

What I am confused about is why she keeps stretching them with me. I'm the only one who she'll loan a book to, I'm the only one who saw her without her wig while in chemo, I'm one of a precious few she gave her (personal) email address to.

About the "mistake". I know in my heart of hearts she said that today to deflect how she really felt at the time it happened (5 months ago). She apologized for her mistake then. She said what she did today because the day we talked about it, it visibly hurt her to have to hurt me. When she made the statement she did, "do you know I only have your best interests at heart," she had tears in her eyes.

Like I said, for some reason, I get to her and I don't know why. I don't consider myself a charming person. I am a master manipulator, but I try not to manipulate her (or anyone else). Tigergirl once said we were already friends, but we try to boundarize it. My H actually agrees with this assessment.

I feel like I can handle it because I have better boundaries than I used to, but what if I stumble?

Yes, this is what's hard and it seems puts a lot of pressure on you. I don't know if you are like I am, but my progress is anything but linear... I make 2 steps forward, then I take a step backward (maybe 2 sometimes). It's not a question of "what if" but "when" perhaps--expecting perfection on behavior patterns that you knew for 35+ years is perhaps unrealistic...

Do you think that it might be helpful to do a consultation w/ another T about some of your concerns? This is tricky and I know that it's best to work with your own T about your relationship, but perhaps an outside perspective -- and someone who could maybe talk to both of you -- might be helpful?

I am confused because T seems to have no rhyme or reason to her boundary stretching. That's why I ask. I also seem to "get to her" emotionally.

I already know what needs to be looked into. Serious mother issues. I want T to be my mom and in many ways, she is re-parenting me. T is glad I'm reading and doing the exercises in The Emotionally Absent Mother. I told her that I was perplexed because many here were being triggered by the book, but I'm going through the exercises like an automaton, feeling absolutely nothing. She told me it will come later, but she's been telling me things will come later for awhile now. How long is it going to take? But I'm impatient, so...

Also, when she lets me stay over, like today, she reminds me of the teacher I had a (non-sexual) relationship with who let me spend lots of time with her after school. T finally admitted today that she thinks the teacher was inappropriate because it doesn't seem like she was solely helping me, but also trying to get her own needs met through me (something I thought all along).

So it all does have links to my past...but it's confusing to me at the same time. Is there a therapeutic purpose to it all?

My progress has definitely followed the 2 steps forward, 1 step back pattern.

I'll think about the consultation. It might be a good idea.

This is why it is so important for the therapist to be the one to keep the firm boundaries. This shouldn't be your job. You shouldn't have to worry about it. It may feel good to be "special" but it causes situations like this where patients don't feel safe.

As much as it hurt when my T told me we aren't friends, and that she never does therapy with her friends, I also felt protected and safe. Maybe your T needs to see someone for help. She can't effectively be your friend and your T, and blurring the boundaries isn't going to help you.

That was the whole deal with the "you didn't make me uncomfortable, I was uncomfortable with myself because I chose to allow the boundaries to be stretched" statement. She has said several times in the course of therapy that I don't have to worry about the boundaries; that's her job.

from everything you've posted in the past about the different relationships it seems that way; like you have dual relationships going on and she is struggling to work it out as are you

It looks like you're a favourite.
And why not? You are very likeable!

ahhh. i'm on the side of being a bit concerned about this. i understand how intoxicating it can be to feel like T's favourite but i don't really think it's such a good thing. she's make you feel like you're more special than the other clients, that the rules and boundaries don't quite apply to you and i don't think that's a healthy thing. i don't believe that's in yours, or any patients best interests, you know? it's like you're trying to see the person behind the clown make-up but the make-up is there for a reason you know? it's part of doing the job.

i think consulting another T to get their take might be a good idea too.

Two things - once I added a ringtone to me on T's phone; not quite the same as getting into the client's calendar, but almost! lots of ladies' names! I just reminded him that for years I had come into the room and not dared to look into the bookshelves until he explicitly invited me. Plus my brain was still pretty burnt by my work trauma back then, nothing was sticking.

Another time, he talked about problems getting onto a psych website and I offered to help; we spent maybe half the hour, but it was a good interaction for us to get to know each other better, for him to see what I could do, and for me to explain to him my difficulties in dealing with people IRL as I had just had to deal with him - correcting his errors without his feeling dumb and my feeling superior and his resenting me - my usual script. So it was still "therapy". Actually, THAT'S probably more my issue than the opposite - I don't have a real life even IRL - I only have T. Watching the Rifleman or Corrie or Ramsey - T. Reading a book or magazine - T. Exercising - T. Talking to a friend - T. Riding the bus - T. PC - T.

After sleeping on it and talking to a couple of other people about it, and reading here, I've decided this: I'm going to take it for what it's worth right now because one belief I ascribe to is that everything happens for a reason. T is my T and I need my T! Like I told T yesterday when talking about the touch issue, back when she told me "do you realize I only want what's best for you," that meant 100x more to me than any hug, no matter how long. It is a very rare thing in life and it happens in T. So perhaps I have a unique relationship with T that I can handle right now. When it becomes a problem, I will handle it then.

Thanks for all your replies and feel free to continue talking to me about the matter. I appreciate any and all feedback, positive and negative!

I have always believed the bolded part, about my T. And he always said, he believes, not in me, but in 'the process'. so it's like being old time sailors, sailing by the stars, a few guiding principles. so what if a few waves wash over the deck. correct course and keep going.