[KazzaX]

Well I have been pondering since I started therapy this time around. I am constantly triggered non stop, all day every day when I am not sleeping. The only thing I can do to minimise harm being done is to try to sleep as much as possible, and it is working well.

I am wondering (and I asked the T but she brushed it off) why I am triggering so hardcore during therapy. I have no idea but the closest I can guess is because it feels a bit like the therapist is trying to break me. I read somewhere that in order to heal your therapist has to totally break you and then rebuild you from scratch (in a healthier way). Is this true?

Maybe I believe that the therapist is trying to do this (break me) in order to rebuild me, and I will not be broken. My father tried to break me all my life (he failed), my mother tried to break me (she failed), school tried to break me (failed), society tried to break me (not sure if fail/success there). But I am not a person to be broken. It just isn't happening.

So I dunno. I have no idea if this is even close because I am disconnected with my feelings they tell me. But the thought of being broken like that makes me want to cut people. A lot of people. And I walk around all day feeling like I want to cut people.

But is this the key to therapy? Allowing them to break you? Cause that would explain a lot as to why I never had any progress with therapy and why I get extremely aggressive when I am in therapy.

[Asiablue]

I don't believe that therapists are out to break people, try to intercede unhelpful patterns maybe... get the client to see a more positive behaviour, thought process, etc but breaking someone suggests force, like trying to break someone's spirit and that just isn't on a therapists agenda in my opinion.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I read somewhere that in order to heal your therapist has to totally break you and then rebuild you from scratch (in a healthier way). Is this true?

I have never heard that before. I don't think it is true, or at least is not a tactic most therapists take. Where did you read it? Can you share this perception you have with your therapist so that she can reassure you that this is not true? If you have gone to therapy before, did you feel this way about your previous therapist? It does sound like your T is triggering past memories of other people trying to break you. It sounds hard! I hope you can come to feel safe in therapy.

Originally Posted by KazzaX

But the thought of being broken like that makes me want to cut people. A lot of people. And I walk around all day feeling like I want to cut people.

This sounds like something important to tell your therapist.

As I defences break down it does feel raw, unbearable. Also for me it meant finally feeling the feelings I built my ego around of my step mother breaking me down as a child. It was that that had to be felt as the defences fell. It's good your feeling this, therapys working.

[SoupDragon]

Yes maybe what you read was about defences being broken? I assume that defences that served us well in the past have to be worked on in order for us to do life differently. But I don't think this is the same as breaking someone in a 'squashing/crushing' way.

[KazzaX]

I'm trying to remember where I read it. It was somewhere on the internet a couple of years ago. "Broken" is probably a bad word to use - its a bit of an old fashioned term I think. Maybe what I read was an old article or something like that. But I still remember it a lot because it feels like what I am experiencing. I remember whatever it was that I read kept referring to how they break in horses, as a comparison. I thought the article was quite blunt but the principle made sense. Reading your responses I realise it probably is not really what goes on. I was probably wrong about that.

Earth mamma your response is interesting because that is what we are trying to do in therapy. Well we WILL be doing it, atm its just noticing what my defenses are. We haven't really done anything about getting rid of them yet, since it is still early days. But yeah that is the plan. What did you do to get through it? Is it just a matter of time? What did you do when you had no defenses (before they help you develop healthy ones)? Did you hide at this time so nobody would take advantage of you? How did you not go absolutely MENTAL?? I am absolutely mental. It is taking all of me to stay inside the house!!! I have the biggest urge to just go outside and cut random people!! omg

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I have the biggest urge to just go outside and cut random people!! omg

I think it is good to recognize that you have this urge. Can you examine, examine, examine these thoughts?

Sounds to me like an urge to take revenge (for something). Probably quite understandable. But those people outside are not the real objects of your anger. Can you recognize who the real objects are?

Kazza, none of it is a point too point process. We didn't work on individual defences. It is just a natural process of the therapy. Yes early on I was curled up like a baby unable to tolerate anything. It felt worse, it felt a mess, like a big ball of string all knotted up.

You can't say something as simple as " when this disappeared, this took its place". I just know by my reactions now and "then". It really is much like the Butterfly ananolgy. Whilst I was curled up the process was unfolding.

[KazzaX]

Ohhh i get what you mean Earth Mamma. And also there would be the benefit of hindsight too, which makes things easier to see.

Pachyderm, no not really. I just want people to bleed and suffer, and the more people the better. When I am triggered, other peoples suffering makes me feel better for some reason. Nobody in particular. Anyone would do, lol. Hell, even a cat works.

I don't know who the real object is. I have never been abused in any fashion or had anything traumatic happen to me, so I'm not sure what I would want revenge about. None of this jazz makes any sense whatsoever.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I have never been abused in any fashion or had anything traumatic happen to me...

so how did you "score" on the emotionally absent mother stuff? that would be like death by a thousand cuts, chronic PTSD. and our defenses would be like stalactites, built up drip by drip over the years, no easy task to skirt or eliminate. T is just in there trying to shine a flashlight on things for you. Why do people get mad at the T? Or what? I'm cornfused.

[KazzaX]

Originally Posted by hankster

so how did you "score" on the emotionally absent mother stuff? that would be like death by a thousand cuts, chronic PTSD. and our defenses would be like stalactites, built up drip by drip over the years, no easy task to skirt or eliminate. T is just in there trying to shine a flashlight on things for you. Why do people get mad at the T? Or what? I'm cornfused.

You mean that list of 10 items in the other post there? My parents both only did number 8 and that's it, hehe.. I was a bit shocked at that post because I didn't realise mothers were supposed to tell you all that! I'm not sure if you meant me but I haven't got PTSD, just severe depression. In today's times, you could call my parents emotionally neglectful but back in those days (the 80s) it was the norm.

I'm not mad at the T though. This is all part of "the process" from what I can gather.

[anilam]

NO WAY- where did you read that???- Ok I've read the whole thread so no need to repeat- What can I say- some ppl/Ts are "unique". That doesn't mean your T is too.

I think T should be trying to help you to understand who you are, why you do the things you do, react the way you do, feel... so you can see what's working for you and what is not and choose what you want to try to change (if YOU want to).

[mcl6136]

I feel it's important for therapy to bring us into a "stretch" zone, which is out of our comfort zone, but not into a "panic" zone.

I don't think much is being accomplished when it's completely overwhelming.

can you ask T to help the two of you "dial it back," ?

[stopdog]

I have certainly experienced therapists and psychiatrists who cheerfully admitted they were breaking (or trying to do so) the client (of course - for the client's "own good") both professionally (I was suing them for a client) and personally.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I'm trying to remember where I read it. It was somewhere on the internet a couple of years ago. "Broken" is probably a bad word to use - its a bit of an old fashioned term I think. Maybe what I read was an old article or something like that.

I wonder if what you read was about breaking down people's defense mechanisms. I think it is a reasonably common theory that part of what therapists do is "break" clients' defense mechanisms (old ways of coping, like denial, minimization, etc). Perhaps it would make the most sense in a situation where a T was trying to get a client to a place where they stopped denying that they were abused as a child, and acknowledged that what happened to them was abusive.

I can't say that this fits any of the T's I've been to. I have never felt that my T's are breaking me or even harping on the same thing to me. I have never felt that my T's have tried to repeatedly get me to see something or do something. Maybe with the exception that my most recent T's have said things along the lines of that I am hard on myself.

Originally Posted by KazzaX

I don't know who the real object is. I have never been abused in any fashion or had anything traumatic happen to me, so I'm not sure what I would want revenge about. None of this jazz makes any sense whatsoever.

I think you've gotten some really insightful responses here, and I agree. There's a difference between breaking someone's spirit and breaking down defenses. Maybe T's see their job sometimes as breaking down our defenses, but of course only we can do that. We have to realize that defenses that served us well in the past are only messing things up now, and we have to learn new behavior.

But your statement above really struck home with me. I would say the same thing about myself. My parents were good people who did the best they could in raising me, and I was never beaten and rarely even yelled at. HOWEVER ... all my life I've been messed up and confused, and didn't know why. What kind of sick person cannot allow themselves to feel happiness, because it makes them feel guilty. WTF???

I've just recently discovered through therapy that I had major psychological damage done to me as a child, mainly by my mother. And all unintentional on her part. This realization has been like a bombshell, and I'm still kind of in shock. T and I are working on it, and I'm just blown away. As he says, it all makes sense. It's like watching a train wreck happen in slow motion - inevitable and devastating.

So all I'm trying to say is that maybe your damage came about because people were trying to "break" you. Obviously you've got a lot of spirit because you never let it happen. I think maybe you've got major transference stuff with your T as you are seeing her trying to do the same thing. So now that it's happening in "the lab" as my T likes to call it, this is your chance to really examine what went wrong. The fact that you're feeling all this anger shows progress, as miserable as it might feel.

Your T is not trying to break your spirit even though it might feel like it! Hang in there - as you let the anger out, it will start to lessen. Think of it as a safety valve that's blown and the built-up pressure is being relieved. And if you can understand it, that will help lessen it faster. But you have to feel it to understand it. Take that formidable spirit of yours and tackle this in therapy. You can do it.

Hm.... Well, i think that my t does try the "breaking" thing to some degree. I have DID and a couple of our inside people are extremely rough around the edges and a bit mean. Three of them have really gotte into big fights with t. With two of them, t seems to have said just the right thing at just the right time ( i dont know what for sure) that seemed to have been like a kick in the stomach to the,-- which totally disarmed them and broke them down. ( it was probably something deep and emotional, im sure....) and that broke them down , both into a puddle of tears. Which is exactly what she wanted them to do.

[KazzaX]

Yeah you are probably right, guys. I read that article a long time ago and it may have been about "breaking defenses" and I just didn't pick up on it at the time. It makes a lot of sense. Also because my dad is very authoritarian and he "broke" my mum into a submissive shadow of her former self, so I probably picked up the "broke" thing in the article and related to that. But "breaking defenses" sounds more like the literature that is out there.

SarahMichelle its interesting what you wrote there. I think my therapy is supposed to do the same - access some mysterious hurt that I don't know about, and break me down into a puddle of tears. After that you build healthy defenses etc etc. I don't think I could survive that. Even thinking about it makes me feel absolute horror. Yuck. I cannot imagine being reduced to nothing but a snivelling mess. I have seen people like that and its not pretty. My mum was like that all my life and I refuse to follow in her footsteps!!!

[Wren_]

I read somewhere that in order to heal your therapist has to totally break you and then rebuild you from scratch (in a healthier way). Is this true?

I have read or heard something like that before but i think it was more someones interpretations of therapy rather than coming from a therapists perspective; makes me think of breaking in horses or something ... i'm glad mostly therapists are gentler and more about wanting to add to and build on rather than crush clients

Originally Posted by KazzaX

Yeah you are probably right, guys. I read that article a long time ago and it may have been about "breaking defenses" and I just didn't pick up on it at the time. It makes a lot of sense. Also because my dad is very authoritarian and he "broke" my mum into a submissive shadow of her former self, so I probably picked up the "broke" thing in the article and related to that. But "breaking defenses" sounds more like the literature that is out there.

SarahMichelle its interesting what you wrote there. I think my therapy is supposed to do the same - access some mysterious hurt that I don't know about, and break me down into a puddle of tears. After that you build healthy defenses etc etc. I don't think I could survive that. Even thinking about it makes me feel absolute horror. Yuck. I cannot imagine being reduced to nothing but a snivelling mess. I have seen people like that and its not pretty. My mum was like that all my life and I refuse to follow in her footsteps!!!

The whole idea of "breaking" people kind of makes me shudder. I recently found out from my aunt that my great-grandmother bragged to her about breaking my grandmother (her mother) "like a horse". And somehow that legacy has been passed down through the generations. WTF??? How is this good??? I just cringe at the whole idea. I don't get it.

kazzaX, I hope you figure this out. Something big is going on with you!
I get the absolute horror thing. The only way we can resist all of this is to be strong. Weakness is the enemy. But then again .... it's a a trap. If we lose touch with our emotions, we lose and "they" win. We become dead. Safe in the prisons we build for ourselves. Bah!!! Talk to your T! She is on your side. You can overcome the defenses you've built in a safe way, without succumbing and losing yourself. Your just have to figure out how. Dissolving in a puddle of tears? That may be how it feels, but it's much more than that. It's a releasing of who you really are, without artificial defenses that were necessary for survival. Argh! I'm rambling. Wish I could help more, but I'm in the same boat. Anyone got a paddle??????

[KazzaX]

Everything you said there was 100% right on the money, TheBunnyWithin!! That is what it feels like. I am dead in my own prison of defenses! It really sucks how we have to go in there and defile our own mind just to be normal!! But if it has to be done, it has to be done.

From what I can tell, the therapist (verbally) pokes you with a stick every session until your defenses are gone. That's what mine is doing. It really, really sucks that we have to go through this torment just to become normal. It is 90000 times as bad as the depression. I am still pondering whether to keep going or not. The depression is wayyyy easier to handle than this stick poking stuff. Sometimes I want to grab the T's stick and jam it right up her (bleep). Actually I always feel like that. I come out of each session feeling emotionally raped. Then I go through the week abusing everyone (and everything) that comes near me. I yelled at a guy in a car at the crossing the other day, scared the crap out of him, lol. But it felt GOOD! Real good. That's what he gets for nearly driving over me. I have been doing that often (they cant drive for crap around here) and eventually someone is going to kick my ***. And I am going to enjoy every minute of it!!!

[here today]

T just broke through a big defense last week. Felt terrible. Better now.

I have been diagnosed with DDNOS and after T broke through, at one point an unknown voice, somewhat defiantly, said "I don't want you to take care of me. I want you to help me build a sense of self that contains __________ (the acting-out character). I'll take care of ____________."

"Well", said T, "you have something to think about. I do, too."

I’ve had a lot of ineffective therapy in my life, from T’s who didn’t understand or know how to do it well or at all. The key seems to be for the T to maintain the sense of relationship while confronting the defense.

I wish they had emotional detox centers where we could go and everybody would know what was going on while our outward (rather that self) abuse was going on. If it was explained to everybody, I think even the other “patients” could understand and not take the other person’s “detoxing” personally.

As it is, while I have been trying to get myself well I have hurt (more) the ones I love!!

Sucks, sucks, sucks.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by KazzaX

From what I can tell, the therapist (verbally) pokes you with a stick every session until your defenses are gone.

I don't think that is what all therapists do. I think they should be sensitive to what a client can tolerate, so that they don't re-traumatize them.

My mother almost proudly told us how she would "break" us, or at least break our spirits, so I know how that feels. Only a very disturbed person, I think, would do anything like that. Claiming it is only "for your own good" just increases the damage.

[unaluna]

so kazzax, you don't want to be your mum, but I bet you don't want to be your dad, either. are you like those russian dolls and your T is just trying to crack off the dad shell and the mum shell, so you can both get to the real you doll inside?

cos why would you want to get beat up? is that your dad getting beat up?

[stopdog]

I understand the wanting to get beat up part. Somedays I walk around wishing someone would do something so I would be justified in just physically attacking them but losing and getting the crap beat out of me instead. It seems like it would be such a relief.