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Old Dec 16, 2012, 11:43 AM
autotelica autotelica is offline
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Some people want the therapist to be "real" with them, relating to them in a way that's nurturing and healthy, but also realistic. In the real world, most people will not react well to being intentionally insulted, for instance. So if you want "realness" in your therapy, you wouldn't want a therapist who just shrugged her shoulders and said, "I love your sweet, sweet voice, my dear! What else do you have to say?" You'd want someone who at least said something like, "Did you wake up on the wrong side of bed or something?"

I'm thinking a patient like this would not really want "zero judgment" therapy. They want someone to be "straight-up" with them, even if it means hearing painful things.

Other people are looking for therapy where they are free to relate to their therapist in a way that is more aligned with their "ideal" relationship. So maybe they want a therapist who will tolerate being called names because they have a pattern of lashing out and being abandoned. They need someone willing to stand by them unconditionally, so that they can work out their issues in a safe, supportive environment. So for folks like this, "zero judgment" tends to be what they want. They want a refuge from judgment, because the world's judgment is what has sent them to therapy in the first place.

I think I am in the first group. The authencity of my therapist is very important to me. For me, just being in therapy is weird enough. It would be even weirder if I couldn't trust my therapist to react to me in a way that makes "sense" (for lack of a better word). This doesn't mean that I'm expecting her to treat me like I've been treated my whole life, or that I'm willing to put up with anything from her. But it does mean that it's not so difficult for me to overlook some of her politically incorrect opinions or inartful phrasings. Or even listen to judgments about me that are not all rainbows and lollipops. I guess I figure that I'm in therapy to learn how to deal with people, and people are flawed, messed-up creatures that ARE judgmental and opinionated. If my therapist can call me nuts and I can still find something to like about her (and more importantly, I don't internalize that her saying that I'm nuts is true or indicative of me being a bad person), then I'm learning how to be stronger and more tolerant.

What kind of therapy have you found yourself in? Is it the kind that you want? How important is "zero judgment" to you?
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  #2  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 11:46 AM
Anonymous35535
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I want authenticity, and zero judgement - a tricky balance. I am always open to her opinions though.

Good question.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 11:56 AM
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unaluna unaluna is online now
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I find my t's nonjudgmental stance is making me Into a similar kind of person. You don't HAVE to offer a negative opinion on everything, like my mother does!
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  #4  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 11:58 AM
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I'm with you in just wanting my therapist to be "real" with me. I expect and get his straight-forward honest feedback. Sometimes it's not what I'd "like" to hear, but it is certainly what I "need" to hear. I value that input, I don't take it as a slight on my entire character, and use his input to move forward. I don't really think of his opinions/observations as "judgemental". He doesn't say what he has to say out of a place of judgement; he says it out of his strong desire to help me face the truth, learn from it, and move on. People who are truly judgemental only have their own opinions in mind, not our best welfare--that is not a description of what my therapist does in any way, shape, or form.

Do I always agree with my T? Heck no, and he knows that. Does he make mistakes? Of course, and I can deal with that. I don't expect anyone to be without flaws.

I appreciate my T's honesty and wouldn't appreciate being with a T who let me get away with irrational thinking or who told me it was okay to treat him or anyone in my life however I felt. I appreciate that my T has boundaries about common decency, even with him. My T will call me on my own irrationality EACH and EVERY time. Can be frustrating that he won't just let me get into my pity party mode when I feel like it, but he's right. I don't have to get stuck in that kind of thinking; I do have a choice about how I deal with things and he won't for a minute let me get away with it without at least letting me know I'm doing it. I appreciate that in my own therapy. Not for everyone I'm sure, but it has worked well for moving me forward and keeping me from staying stuck in my old thinking.
  #5  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 12:16 PM
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I don't know what I want.

I always have this urge to yell at T, "You're so judgmental!" But nothing could be further from the truth. He's COMPLETELY nonjudgmental. So I know I'm just reflecting on him what I suspect of everyone else in the outside world.

I suppose I would like a genuinely nonjudgmental T. I think my concern is that he is outwardly nonjudgmental, but inside he MUST have opinions that he's keeping away from me... so he isn't really nonjudgmental.
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  #6  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 12:22 PM
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SallyBrown SallyBrown is offline
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I think that there's a happy medium in there, but where that medium is will be different for everyone.

I guess in my experience, and what I find useful, is for things to start out with the sort of "zero judgment" you describe, where first the therapist has to figure out what different actions/words mean from you. When some people get angry, they are trying to provoke the other person into anger, and so it might be best for the therapist to be completely calm and say, "It seems like you're trying to make me angry," without expressing anger in any way. Others almost never express anger, and so when they do, it would also be important for T to make it as easy as possible for that particular patient to get his feelings out, for once. And others are stuck in a pattern and get angry whenever they are called on it, and at that point it might be best for the T to express that he is angry (in a helpful way), in order to let that patient know how his response might be having a serious impact on his outside life. Just an example.

So I guess what I'm describing is "authenticity with space", which is ideal for me. I don't ever want any T to say something to me that isn't true, but at the same time, there are instances in which how T feel needs to take a backseat until I'm ready to deal with it.
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  #7  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 12:24 PM
autotelica autotelica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCat View Post
I think my concern is that he is outwardly nonjudgmental, but inside he MUST have opinions that he's keeping away from me... so he isn't really nonjudgmental.
This is why I wouldn't care for someone who talked a good game about being non-judgmental. I don't believe anyone is free of judgments...it's just that some folks are more vocal than others. I'd rather hear what they have to say (within reason, of course) than listen to them automatically say the "right" thing. There is a way to say what's on your mind without it coming across as mean or judgmental (as in, judging the person instead of the action).
  #8  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 12:55 PM
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I think it depends on where the patient is. I am at a point that I realize that I am extremely sensitive to things that a normal person could easily take. This isn't a choice I have made, and the realization that I am this way is devastating. At this point, as I explore why I am like this and how I change, my T is going to have.to be sensitive in how he says things as I learn to stay present even with the idea that I am so sensitive. I think it will be a progressive process, although not linear, where I learn to tolerate things that I couldn't before. I think my issues come from having a mother who was enmeshed, who couldn't stand other thoughts than her own, and who taught me that having my own ideas wasn't okay, so if I say what I believe and someone offers a different view, it feels invalidating because growing up I was invalidated, not what I did, but who I was. In summary, I think the therapist's stance on this should be based on where the patient is, and what the patient's report of what he\she needs. If my T were to insist that I tolerate this, it would destroy me at this point and I would become more dissociative. Thank you so much for the great thread!!!
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  #9  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:33 PM
Anonymous43207
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Originally Posted by hankster View Post
I find my t's nonjudgmental stance is making me Into a similar kind of person. You don't HAVE to offer a negative opinion on everything, like my mother does!
omg my mother is the same way. no matter WHAT it is I might tell her, her response is always negative even if she thinks it's positive, it's still positive delivered in a negative envelope if that makes sense.
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  #10  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:44 PM
murray murray is offline
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This is something that I think requires an amazing sense of understanding of the client and what they need from the T. My T is quite genuine and pretty human and open in our sessions. He has had occasional reactions in the moment that were jarring for both of us and we discussed- they were his real reactions to what I was sharing with him. This, to me, is priceless. I need to interact with real people in the real world and need to know I can trust that my T will do his best to get me to understand how to better relate to people in a safe and confident (not obnoxious)manner. All my life I have struggled with boundaries and I guess I have been codependent( hate that term btw) and it is very difficult for me to trust my own perceptions/instincts/reactions and it is so helpful to have someone tell me that I don't need to tolerate certain things but also to tell me when I have reacted poorly or if I am allowing myself to get stuck or fall into old patterns.
The best thing for me, and something that is still very very hard to accept, is that my T can be honest with me and even tell me that I may have erred BUT that I am still an okay person and he still accepts me. This is so amazing and something that I NEVER thought was possible. I always believed that if I ever made a mistake or didn't do whatever someone wanted me to do, then I was horrible/defective and didn't deserve love or acceptance as a person.

Not sure if this makes any sense, sorry. Basically for me my T being real with me, while still accepting me, has been the most healing thing I think I could have ever experienced. After a number of years, I am beginning to finally believe (sometimes) that I might actually be a worthwhile human being and that my worth isn't totally dependent upon making everyone in my life happy despite how much it damaged me.
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  #11  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:47 PM
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my t is nonjudgemental for the most part, i say it that way because while I am allowed (and encouraged) to speak freely with her, even to the point of yelling at her or arguing or whatever, and the times I have she has never judged me for it, however I am expected to listen to her response and discuss why I felt that particular way. I appreciate her handling it like this, because it is pretty much a polar opposite from my parental units when I was growing up. My t never tells me i'm stupid for getting mad or things like that. My PU's always always during the physical punishment would always tell me how stupid I was for getting mad, etc. "Stupid" or "You don't even have the brains god gave a goose" or "if you don't shape up you'll never be more than a ditch digger" and crap like that. Ugh. The holidays remind me of FOO and brings this up. Sorry.

Oh and Chris said something up a bit, about her t not letting her get into her pity party mode, my t has a lovely way of getting me out of mine if I start to go into that mode. She does that particular raised-eyebrow look at me, and says something like "Oh?" or "Where are you feeling that?" something along those lines. I betcha 10 bucks that look would translate over the phone just by the particular tone in her voice when she responds. Not that I'll be finding out on purpose or anything. hahahaha I also get the raised eyebrow look when I respond with "I don't know" and she knows darn well I DO know. LOL I do love that woman.
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  #12  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Good points Murray (my new text editor is unwieldy, sorry). I ended up accepting unacceptable things into my life being codependent, trying to undo "her".
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  #13  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:55 PM
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He has had occasional reactions in the moment that were jarring for both of us and we discussed- they were his real reactions to what I was sharing with him. This, to me, is priceless.
Yes, this!! I refer to it when my T does it, as her T mask slipping off for a moment and I see the 'complete' her. One time in particular this happened is when I was doing a sand tray, her watching as usual, and whatever I was creating that day was pretty powerful as far as displaying emotions and she 'gets' me so well, she felt those emotions and reacted to them out loud before she could stop herself. She caught herself and apologized immediately but honestly it made me feel SO very understood that she reacted that way, it was nothing but positive. Another time she was reading out loud one of my dreams (cuz I refused to read it out loud) and she giggled at one part before she could stop herself. That time I yelled at her to "shut up" and she acknowledged her mistake and we spent some time talking about that one! But after the fact, after we'd discussed it, I felt thankful to her for again allowing a real-human reaction to come out even if it did make me mad at the time. I never feel like I'm talking to a robot with her, and it means the world to me.
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  #14  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray View Post
This is something that I think requires an amazing sense of understanding of the client and what they need from the T. My T is quite genuine and pretty human and open in our sessions. He has had occasional reactions in the moment that were jarring for both of us and we discussed- they were his real reactions to what I was sharing with him. This, to me, is priceless. I need to interact with real people in the real world and need to know I can trust that my T will do his best to get me to understand how to better relate to people in a safe and confident (not obnoxious)manner. All my life I have struggled with boundaries and I guess I have been codependent( hate that term btw) and it is very difficult for me to trust my own perceptions/instincts/reactions and it is so helpful to have someone tell me that I don't need to tolerate certain things but also to tell me when I have reacted poorly or if I am allowing myself to get stuck or fall into old patterns.
The best thing for me, and something that is still very very hard to accept, is that my T can be honest with me and even tell me that I may have erred BUT that I am still an okay person and he still accepts me. This is so amazing and something that I NEVER thought was possible. I always believed that if I ever made a mistake or didn't do whatever someone wanted me to do, then I was horrible/defective and didn't deserve love or acceptance as a person.

Not sure if this makes any sense, sorry. Basically for me my T being real with me, while still accepting me, has been the most healing thing I think I could have ever experienced. After a number of years, I am beginning to finally believe (sometimes) that I might actually be a worthwhile human being and that my worth isn't totally dependent upon making everyone in my life happy despite how much it damaged me.
Thanks for your articulate, poignant post. I can relate to what you say and I hope to get to the point you describe.:-)
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  #15  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:07 PM
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I have no desire to have the therapist do anything other than play their role. I do not believe the woman is non-judgmental but really all she need do is not tell me about her judgments.
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  #16  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
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Evidently this is something T's have to figure out too. There is a book on this subject, written for T's, called "Seduction, Surrender and Transformation: Emotional Engagement in the Analytic Process." It makes the argument for emotional honesty in session. I guess in the past T's were supposed to be a blank slate, but now the thinking is that it's more beneficial for the patient to receive emotional honesty from the T. Like if the T gets angry from a patient's behavior, they should show it. They need to control it, but still show it and help the patient understand why they are angry. It's not being judgmental, like "you are wrong to make me angry" but simply to help the patient understand how their behavior affects other people.

It's really interesting reading, and I agree with it. I hate to sit in session trying to guess how my T is REALLY feeling about our interaction. I'd rather him be honest and then we can talk about it. I had to do too much guessing with my parents and I'm sick of it!
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  #17  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
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Good points Murray (my new text editor is unwieldy, sorry). I ended up accepting unacceptable things into my life being codependent, trying to undo "her".
I have also become codependent as a result of "her" enmeshment, and your statement saying you are trying to undo her is very insightful and it has given me something to think about.
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  #18  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:34 PM
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I need real the most. After things went downhill because my T spent a session so angry with me, I wonder if what she suddenly did was move more towards zero judgement. Whatever it was, it was horrible. All she did was mirror me, and list techniques for me to try. She said things like "you don't have to ask if I'm okay". Ugh. I thought, bring back my real T please, because even real feelings like anger are far better than that.
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  #19  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:42 PM
autotelica autotelica is offline
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Why was so she angry, Nightlight? That would make me uncomfortable too.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBunnyWithin View Post
Evidently this is something T's have to figure out too. There is a book on this subject, written for T's, called "Seduction, Surrender and Transformation: Emotional Engagement in the Analytic Process." It makes the argument for emotional honesty in session. I guess in the past T's were supposed to be a blank slate, but now the thinking is that it's more beneficial for the patient to receive emotional honesty from the T. Like if the T gets angry from a patient's behavior, they should show it. They need to control it, but still show it and help the patient understand why they are angry. It's not being judgmental, like "you are wrong to make me angry" but simply to help the patient understand how their behavior affects other people.

It's really interesting reading, and I agree with it. I hate to sit in session trying to guess how my T is REALLY feeling about our interaction. I'd rather him be honest and then we can talk about it. I had to do too much guessing with my parents and I'm sick of it!
Yes, so true! My xT would tell me he wasn't angry when he actually was. We both ended up deciding that affectual honesty was he best. He would then tell me his experience, but in a kind helpful way. I do thinkthis is important in therapy, and that the healing part is in the real interactions of the therapeutical relationship, and in discussing the interactions.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:47 PM
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Apparently she was reacting to me, because my issues were all coming up in therapy, my unconscious anger, I was being passive aggressive...and so on. Except I didn't actually feel any of those things...so I just sat there in tears (and I seldom cry like that) while she said awful stuff with a very raised voice for the whole hour. She didn't respond to my reaction. I'd almost never felt worse, and I just sat there and took it. It's a bit of a long story! It was so bad. She later told me she brought too much anger to the session. She was sorry. She felt like she was fighting for me. Things have been very rocky since. I'm still glad I still have real though. I need her to stay real.
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  #22  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightlight View Post
I need real the most. After things went downhill because my T spent a session so angry with me, I wonder if what she suddenly did was move more towards zero judgement. Whatever it was, it was horrible. All she did was mirror me, and list techniques for me to try. She said things like "you don't have to ask if I'm okay". Ugh. I thought, bring back my real T please, because even real feelings like anger are far better than that.
I hope you were able to talk to her about this, Nightlight. It sounds like she was telling you that you weren't responsible for her emotions. Sometimes we trigger emotions in our therapists that have nothing to do with us (sometimes they do). I wonder if she went into Freud mode, intellectual mode because of how she was feeling? IDK, but I think you should talk to her. Hugs.
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  #23  
Old Dec 16, 2012, 05:09 PM
Anonymous32765
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This is a great question Auto.
For me authenticity is important. I like a t who is real and not a blank slate t. I had one of those and I found her to be very unreal and could not be myself around her. I always felt like she was judging me (she was), as she used to bring stuff that I had told her at the begining and throw it back in my face later on.
My current t is very genuine and I feel as though I can tell her anything and she always gets things right immmediatly, it feels as though she puts herself in my shoes. Last T would never give me an answer to any questions and would always turn the question back to me- which I hated. I do appreciate realness in a therapist or else therapy is pointless for me.
  #24  
Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:08 AM
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My therapist was authentically critical (saying he didn't like talking to me sometimes) at the same time as he pushed me to quit therapy. Earlier, I probably would have said I preferred authenticity, but in my case, authenticity turned out to be that he thought I wasn't worth helping, making the whole question meaningless. In hindsight, I guess that earlier in therapy I should not have let any hints of judgmental authenticity from him go by so that I could have discovered sooner that he really was as indifferent as he was, and I would not have wasted so much energy and time. I can't think of a way I could have allowed for any supposedly constructive criticism without missing cues that he found my needs as worthless as he did. I thought that because it was therapy, I should try to trust that criticism was intended to be helpful, and that if he was hurtful sometimes, he would eventually help somehow, or at least try. But obviously I needed to pick up on the authentic cues more than I did. If I ever tried therapy again, I'd necessarily have to find a therapist who could act nonjudgmental enough to say I was worth helping. But they always do at first. I think this question hit on the reason I can't find a way it makes sense for me to keep trying.
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  #25  
Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:50 AM
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I don't feel a non-judgmental T is the apathetic T that you describe. Yes I do feel that there are people in this world that can separate behavior from the person and have absolutely no judgment towards a person. Now I don't think my T is this way but I know some are. My T try to be a blank slate but she's not very good at it. :P . I've had T's be too opinionated. So this is an interesting change. I think someone can be themselves and non-judgmental.
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