[snowangel17]

I have been seeing my T now for almost a year and have developed a definite paternal attachment to him. He is caring, kind, funny and maintains good boundaries etc. We have had a very good relationship thus far and I feel he cares about me within the confines of the therapy relationship. I suffer from depression and I have found t has already helped me with this so it has always been quite a positive space for me.

I pay for T of pocket so only go once every 2 weeks. We were speaking today about how It would be nice to go more often but financially I could not afford this. It was simply me airing my thoughts more of a passing comment than a wish to explore anything about it further. He asked me how I felt about not being able to go as much as I liked and I said it bothered me but it wasn't the end of the world and that twice per month was better than nothing. He then proceeded to tell me that some people take out loans in order to be able to go to therapy or borrow off family members. It wasn't just one sentence he spoke for a couple of minutes about it. I didn't share it at the time but this really annoyed me. I felt like he was suggesting that perhaps this is something I should do. I understand it's a business and he needs to earn money (I'm always aware that I am paying him for his time and that this is a business relationship) but I am annoyed that he would suggest that. I mean I think to suggest someone should get into debt to go to therapy shows that you don't actually care about them at all? To me it screams I just want you to come here for the money you give me and I feel hurt by it. Do you think that's what he was suggesting or am I completely over reacting? I hope to be able to pluck up the courage to bring it up at our next session in 2 weeks but just wanted to hear others thoughts.

[feileacan]

I think there are several ways to interpret it. One way is to interpret the way you did and I think it is very natural to interpret it in that way (I probably would too at first).

Another way would be to interpret it that way that you were discussing your situation and your feelings and what you want and what to do in order for you to get what you want without involving the T. You said that you would like to come more often but can't afford it. So, what people do when they want to get something but can't afford it? Many of them actually take loans. So in that sense it is one option, right? It seems to me that you read out from this discussion some kind of sentiment of your T towards you but as I read your post I get the sense (and I could be wrong of course) that the T discussed it all from your point of view, leaving himself out of it completely. He was discussing your wants and needs and wishes and was proposing one option for you to get what you want, whereas it is possible that you assumed that he should propose something else demonstrating his care (like offering a reduced fee or whatever).

I definitely suggest you bring it up again and tell him exactly how you got annoyed and about what and how you felt that he only wants to see you for money and how you felt hurt by it. These are all very good points to discuss in therapy. Also, many therapists actually offer reduced fee but not without being explicitly asked for it. Finding out what you want and need and then explicitly asking for it at the same time risking for getting rejected are very good things to learn experimentally in therapy and it seems that you might have a very good opportunities for these kinds of lessons right now.

[ruh roh]

I think it's highly irresponsible for a therapist to promote bad debt. I would be really bothered if my therapist suggested going into debt to see her.

Your therapist could offer a sliding scale rather than taking out a loan. Or, at the very least, be sympathetic. I mean, why add to a person's problems with debt?

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by feileacan

I think there are several ways to interpret it. One way is to interpret the way you did and I think it is very natural to interpret it in that way (I probably would too at first).

Another way would be to interpret it that way that you were discussing your situation and your feelings and what you want and what to do in order for you to get what you want without involving the T. You said that you would like to come more often but can't afford it. So, what people do when they want to get something but can't afford it? Many of them actually take loans. So in that sense it is one option, right? It seems to me that you read out from this discussion some kind of sentiment of your T towards you but as I read your post I get the sense (and I could be wrong of course) that the T discussed it all from your point of view, leaving himself out of it completely. He was discussing your wants and needs and wishes and was proposing one option for you to get what you want, whereas it is possible that you assumed that he should propose something else demonstrating his care (like offering a reduced fee or whatever).

I definitely suggest you bring it up again and tell him exactly how you got annoyed and about what and how you felt that he only wants to see you for money and how you felt hurt by it. These are all very good points to discuss in therapy. Also, many therapists actually offer reduced fee but not without being explicitly asked for it. Finding out what you want and need and then explicitly asking for it at the same time risking for getting rejected are very good things to learn experimentally in therapy and it seems that you might have a very good opportunities for these kinds of lessons right now.

Totally get what you are saying. I definitely wasn't looking for him to offer a reduced fee though. In fact that hadn't actually crossed my mind at all and if he did ever indeed offer something like that I'm not sure I would take him up on it. It was really a passing comment

I get where you are coming from saying that he was putting my options out there for me but I still think that even highlighting that taking out a loan 'i'e going into debt was an an option that would be in my best interests. I mean there are always options for everything in life but I would hope my T wouldn't offer me up ones that weren't in my best interest regardless of whether it was available or not.

[Moment]

I totally understand how you feel about this. I don't think you are over reacting.

However, it sounds like he has been a good therapist. If you feel he has been genuinely caring, I don't think this necessarily undermines that.

Maybe one thing you are working on is passivity and maybe at every opportunity he is trying to show you that you do have choices, even when you think you don't? If that is the case, maybe this particular time it just landed badly.

I would talk about it with him. I have found the most productive stuff in my therapy has been talking about the emotional stuff between me and the therapist.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I think it's highly irresponsible for a therapist to promote bad debt. I would be really bothered if my therapist suggested going into debt to see her.

Your therapist could offer a sliding scale rather than taking out a loan. Or, at the very least, be sympathetic. I mean, why add to a person's problems with debt?

What I'm having difficulty with is whether or not that was in fact the meaning behind what he said or not but I think that it was and it's hard to see what other meaning there was. I mean he didn't directly say 'You can take out a loan' just that 'some people do take out loans'...To me it sounded like an indirect suggestion though. Being sympathetic would have been much better and what I needed.

[awkwardlyyours]

Yeah, I'd find this hurtful too (although I can see how that may not have been the T's intent).

Recently, I told my T that there was a good chance that I may have to quit therapy soon-ish because I'll have to pay some necessary but crazy expensive legal fees (I no longer need to but at the time it seemed rather likely).

She immediately countered by suggesting that I cut down sessions to once a month even (I see her twice a week currently). I was super pissed off -- not because I needed her to offer reduced fees etc (I knew for a fact when I started with her that she didn't offer it) but because it felt like she didn't understand the first thing about how my emotions or attachment to her works i.e., I'd always find no contact at all to be much less painful than minimal contact. And, that when she's gone on about how she really understands (and has taught courses) on attachment theory blah blah.

So, I kinda tore into her about it. She back-tracked and said that if it came to it, we'd work something out and I could continue seeing her twice a week etc (I'd never accept such an arrangement given my family-of-origin issues around money but it was kind of her to offer although I'm not sure how much of it was driven by her usual stance of trying to placate me).

All of that to say -- let him know although it's super painful. And, then see how you feel about it all. I'm not fully past it but it's been interesting to mull it over for myself.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by Moment

I totally understand how you feel about this. I don't think you are over reacting.

However, it sounds like he has been a good therapist. If you feel he has been genuinely caring, I don't think this necessarily undermines that.

Maybe one thing you are working on is passivity and maybe at every opportunity he is trying to show you that you do have choices, even when you think you don't? If that is the case, maybe this particular time it just landed badly.

I would talk about it with him. I have found the most productive stuff in my therapy has been talking about the emotional stuff between me and the therapist.

I totally understand what you are saying here but I'm not quite sure if that was it. I mean yes maybe he was trying to show me that I have choices but looking back I felt my comment about it 'not being the end of the world' showed that I had a relatively okay outlook about the whole thing and I wasn't dwelling on it or wallowing in the fact that I couldn't go more. For him to continue probing further about how I felt it and then continuing on to mention how some take out loans to me feels like it then became more about him. I mean if he had said something like that a few weeks into our therapy where he did not yet really know me I don't think I would have been so hurt by it as I understand at the end of the day it's a business and business means trying to make money. I just feel that if you cared for a person even just in the confines of the therapeutic relationship that you wouldn't want them to go into debt even if you genuinely believed the thing they were going to into debt over benefitted them. I mean that would just be creating one problem to solve another no?

The other thing is that I do plan to talk to him about it next time I see him but that will not be for another two weeks and it's really gotten to me.

My T said the exact same thing to me-take out a loan. If things are helping the way they are now, why change it?

Just realized I didn't answer your question. In T, when people have highly charged reactions, it can I indicate something from the past. I wouldn't know if this is the case with you, but maybe something to think about.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by Blanche_

My T said the exact same thing to me-take out a loan. If things are helping the way they are now, why change it?

I really wasn't trying to change things merely just making an observation that coming more often would probably be easier as I do find the time between sessions very long. It really wasn't a big conversation on my part. At least I didn't think so but maybe it came across as a big thing.... I mean it clearly was enough that I was thinking about it but as I say I wasn't dwelling on it or wallowing in self pity or anything like that.

[Teddy Bear]

I think it's not necessary to bring up the loan part. You should spend your time talking about why you're there.

[MessyD]

I think I would interpret it and feel the same but I don't think it was his intention. It's possible he was just trying to offer suggestion but should be been more careful. I don't think you're overreacting at all. But only way to find out is ask.
I was in a same spot, going every 2 weeks and when my T asked me what stops me from going every week, I didn't want to say anything, but he guessed it was money. He then offered me reduced fee if I want to come every week. I was hesitant at first but ended up accepting the offer and it worked out fine although I still skip a week here and there.

[growlycat]

Maybe he wanted to point out that we always have choices. Not always good choices but they are there.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by growlycat

Maybe he wanted to point out that we always have choices. Not always good choices but they are there.

Maybe...Just an unusual way to do it by suggesting something that wouldn't be beneficial to me in the long run IMO ...

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by Teddy Bear

I think it's not necessary to bring up the loan part. You should spend your time talking about why you're there.

I am there for lots of reasons but I am now annoyed with my T and feeling hurt which I know will impact how open I am with him so surely it's worth exploring more?

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by Blanche_

My T said the exact same thing to me-take out a loan. If things are helping the way they are now, why change it?

Just realized I didn't answer your question. In T, when people have highly charged reactions, it can I indicate something from the past. I wouldn't know if this is the case with you, but maybe something to think about.

Yes, I think you might be right. I mean obviously, some of it is clearly based in the here and now and the feeling that perhaps he doesn't really care for me at all like I thought he did and really it is just completely based on money and that really hurts after allowing myself to get attached. I know growing up I never wanted for anything financially but I didn't have the love and care from my parents that I needed and wanted. To this day I don't really place a high value on expensive gifts from my SO. It's easy to spend money right anyone can do it (if they have it that is and my parents did). It's much harder to spend time with someone and show them the love and care they deserve.

[Favorite Jeans]

That would have really bugged me too.

One thing I've noticed is that people have very, like massively, different ideas about debt. Some people see it as no big deal, a state we're all in at some point or other, if not most of our lives. Others see it as a thing to avoid at all cost. Like unless it's a life or death situation, if you can't pay for it up front, you go without it.

If your T falls into the former camp he might really not see a loan as such a major thing. He himself may be very comfortable with the idea of living beyond his means and suggest to you something he does himself as a matter of course. Like if you want or need more therapy, why go without?

I fall into the latter camp (though I am in debt). I would be appalled if my T suggested I take out loans in order to see her more. I'd definitely feel like she wasn't looking out for best interests.

In times of crisis I've seen her more than I could really afford to (my decision). It was still cheaper than it would have been to stop working and definitely way cheaper than getting hospitalized. That's how I rationalized it to myself anyway.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

That would have really bugged me too.

One thing I've noticed is that people have very, like massively, different ideas about debt. Some people see it as no big deal, a state we're all in at some point or other, if not most of our lives. Others see it as a thing to avoid at all cost. Like unless it's a life or death situation, if you can't pay for it up front, you go without it.

If your T falls into the former camp he might really not see a loan as such a major thing. He himself may be very comfortable with the idea of living beyond his means and suggest to you something he does himself as a matter of course. Like if you want or need more therapy, why go without?

I fall into the latter camp (though I am in debt). I would be appalled if my T suggested I take out loans in order to see her more. I'd definitely feel like she wasn't looking out for best interests.

In times of crisis I've seen her more than I could really afford to (my decision). It was still cheaper than it would have been to stop working and definitely way cheaper than getting hospitalized. That's how I rationalized it to myself anyway.

Yes, I guess this makes some sense. He may not see taking out a loan as a big a deal as I do but surely as a T who would be used to dealing with different types of people, who have different thoughts on finances he should have an awareness that for a lot of people taking out a loan would be a very big deal.

[kecanoe]

I would classify t talking about taking out a loan for services as a dumb thing to say. I doubt that t was just thinking about his pocketbook, but still.

That said, there are many people who think having a bunch of debt is ok-perhaps your t falls into that category or perhaps your t does not know where you stand on debt in general?

I think I would file it under "dumb things t has said" and continue doing what has been working for you both financially and emotionally. IMO ts are occasionally allowed to say dumb things. As long as it is occasionally.

[snowangel17]

Originally Posted by kecanoe

I would classify t talking about taking out a loan for services as a dumb thing to say. I doubt that t was just thinking about his pocketbook, but still.

That said, there are many people who think having a bunch of debt is ok-perhaps your t falls into that category or perhaps your t does not know where you stand on debt in general?

I think I would file it under "dumb things t has said" and continue doing what has been working for you both financially and emotionally. IMO ts are occasionally allowed to say dumb things. As long as it is occasionally.

I guess you are right. Still, I don't think I will be able to just forget about it until perhaps I bring it up. I plan to bring it up to discuss it briefly at the next session and then hopefully move onto other more important things

[snowangel17]

One thing I'm worried about is that if I bring it up he might not see it as a a big deal. It is not the first time that he mentioned something like this. The first was when I first started therapy he mentioned some people borrow off family members. I didn't take much notice of it then though as he didn't know me at all (so i wasn't really offended) and I hadn't developed any attachment to him also. I was aware that he runs a business and I figured he was just trying to get me to come more often to increase his income but also perhaps because he felt coming more often was more beneficial. I guess it's different this time though.

What would you say to your T if it was you? I don't want to come across as offensive or attacking but I do want to air my feelings. I was thinking maybe something along the lines of 'I wanted to bring up something that has been bothering me from our last session. I was really hurt by something you said when we were talking about money'

[Moment]

I think that phrasing sounds really good. Honest and direct.