[rainbow8]

So we did SE about seeing my T laughing on her phone after my session last week. SE is very different from talk therapy. It's like slow EMDR. First my T wants to know how I feel inside, physically. Calm, anxious, or whatever. I was hot because of the weather today, and also because of being embarrassed about a painting I did. So she wanted to know if any part of me felt cool. Well, my toes did! So I was supposed to go back and forth from my toes to my face.

Then, I had to think of the image of her on the phone, and tell where and what I felt, physically, not emotionally. Then, back to a place of calm--my legs. Back and forth. Then we come out and she asks about my family. Then we go back "in" with the image.

After awhile, she asked how I felt when I saw her on the phone, and I said I wanted to throw something at her. Yes, I didn't even know how angry I was! With SE, you take that urge and do it very slowly. I had to move my arms like I was throwing something at her, but slowly, over and over. I felt a little better after that, but I said I wanted to smash her phone! She kept telling me how great I was doing! So I had to pretend I was smashing her phone slowly, again. The whole idea of SE is to do the movement slowly. Something about it doing something to your brain, the connections--I don't know.

So, back and forth, with feeling calm, stopping to talk about my grandkids, and feeling the anger. We did that for almost an hour.

I felt somewhat better but she says it takes time, and to trust her. We also talked about that part who felt lonely, unloved, and discarded. That's IFS, not SE. She asked what did that part want from me, and to tell her that she was important. I wanted T to hold my hand but she doesn't do that anymore. We ended with a hug, though.

I was okay with it because at this point, we both know I've had enough talk T and this is worth a try. She says EMDR, IFS and SE all work together. This is EMDR without the tappers. She says I get too lost in the past with EMDR.

I was okay but got triggered at home. My T asked if I was going to the lake because it's the first warm day we've had, and the lake is not so far from her office, maybe 10 minutes or so. I said I couldn't because my H needed the car. I got home and his friend changed his plans because he forgot so I could have gone to the beach after all. I exploded so my H said DBT is a waste. I have been disappointed a lot this week, besides having this major mess to clean up due to our basement being flooded. That made me more angry, not at my H, but at the way things turned out. We went for a walk instead, by our house.

So, I have a lot of anger inside. I know it's not really about my T and she encouraged it, but I feel crummy. I feel calmer now because I emailed her about it. I'm scared of all this anger. I really felt like I wanted to hurt her and smash her phone. She thought that was great! All I know is that therapy is so hard lately.

[ultramar]

Sounds like you had an intense session!

I've never really understood the dichotomy between being about the therapist vs not being about the therapist I don't think it's either really, strictly speaking. I think, it's somehow about what the therapist represents to us, each one of us, differently and very personally. When you consider the wonderful recent post about the purposes behind the transference, that's I guess partly what I'm referring to.

So I would ask, what did her talking on the phone, and so happily, after session represent to you? What does it mean for you? How does it make you feel? I know you do IFS (amongst other things), but I feel like it would be useful to explore how it makes you feel in the here and now, as you, as an adult.

So, for example, maybe your anger at this situation expressed in words might be something like: "How dare she transition to talking to someone else so soon after I leave! Part of me still hasn't left, still hasn't transitioned away. Just minutes ago, she was with me, all of her, and we were the only two people in the world! She's invalidating that special connection by so casually going on to talk to someone else she is close to, just like that, so easy? It's not easy for me. I'd like to talk to her more, but she's fine with leaving it at that. Maybe she prefers talking to this person over me? And how can she be so happy after I've left? Can't she feel just a little of what I feel?"

I don't know if any of this is accurate for you, but I think all of these would be perfectly understandable reactions and I certainly can imagine having the same reaction, less intensely at this point in my therapy than before, and I'd probably quickly push those feelings away because I wouldn't want to think of myself as feeling that way. It's embarrassing, but the nature of the beast nonetheless.

Do you think it would be useful to -aside from the EMDR, IFS, and SE- to throw some 'talk therapy' into the mix? Or do you feel it really wouldn't be helpful to you?

Sorry for all the rambling, hadn't planned on that, but it occurred to me that, though perhaps not so angry, I might have a similar reaction as I quoted above.

Rainbow8: Continue to remember its not about your therapist. It's most likely a flashback from the past, not remembered, but triggered by the present, and physically experienced in the here and now like in the past. Attachment needs not met by mOm. Hang in there.

I read a thread on transference and it didn't fit for me when I read it, and after reading several other articles. The jury is still out. And, every client doesn't fit the same mold.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ultramar

Sounds like you had an intense session!

I've never really understood the dichotomy between being about the therapist vs not being about the therapist I don't think it's either really, strictly speaking. I think, it's somehow about what the therapist represents to us, each one of us, differently and very personally. When you consider the wonderful recent post about the purposes behind the transference, that's I guess partly what I'm referring to.

So I would ask, what did her talking on the phone, and so happily, after session represent to you? What does it mean for you? How does it make you feel? I know you do IFS (amongst other things), but I feel like it would be useful to explore how it makes you feel in the here and now, as you, as an adult.

So, for example, maybe your anger at this situation expressed in words might be something like: "How dare she transition to talking to someone else so soon after I leave! Part of me still hasn't left, still hasn't transitioned away. Just minutes ago, she was with me, all of her, and we were the only two people in the world! She's invalidating that special connection by so casually going on to talk to someone else she is close to, just like that, so easy? It's not easy for me. I'd like to talk to her more, but she's fine with leaving it at that. Maybe she prefers talking to this person over me? And how can she be so happy after I've left? Can't she feel just a little of what I feel?"

I don't know if any of this is accurate for you, but I think all of these would be perfectly understandable reactions and I certainly can imagine having the same reaction, less intensely at this point in my therapy than before, and I'd probably quickly push those feelings away because I wouldn't want to think of myself as feeling that way. It's embarrassing, but the nature of the beast nonetheless.

Do you think it would be useful to -aside from the EMDR, IFS, and SE- to throw some 'talk therapy' into the mix? Or do you feel it really wouldn't be helpful to you?

Sorry for all the rambling, hadn't planned on that, but it occurred to me that, though perhaps not so angry, I might have a similar reaction as I quoted above.

Thanks, ultramar. Yes, it was kind of intense! I did have those reactions you listed but my main insight is that it is more than that, that it's about something from my past. The hurt was too huge, and the pain too deep to be about her transitioning to someone else on her phone. She sees clients back to back, so I've seen the next person many times without that reaction. I've heard her on the phone other times too. I think part of it is me as an adult, but most of my reaction was as a child.

I've had about 15 years of talk therapy with 4 other Ts, and I do talk to my T because I like talking with her! She's the first T I've had who uses other methods, including teaching me mindfulness meditation and encouraging me to take yoga. I love IFS which is basically talk therapy, and we did that for the first year or so. But she's taking advanced training in somatic experiencing and it's getting me to get to know my body better--all good for me even though it's a little weird.

Originally Posted by Goingtogetthere

Rainbow8: Continue to remember its not about your therapist. It's most likely a flashback from the past, not remembered, but triggered by the present, and physically experienced in the here and now like in the past. Attachment needs not met by mOm. Hang in there.

I read a thread on transference and it didn't fit for me when I read it, and after reading several other articles. The jury is still out. And, every client doesn't fit the same mold.

I didn't read the thread or article about transference yet. Yeah, my T thinks it's probably about my Mom not meeting my needs, though she certainly loved me enough! All my Ts told me my needs weren't met in the past though they didn't know how or why not. I was told maybe my Mom and I didn't "fit" right, or maybe she was too anxious. It doesn't matter so much. My T says SE will help me not be triggered so much by those kinds of experiences. My body will learn how to cope better. It's worth a try!

What is SE?

[peaches100]

Hi Rainbow,

It sounds like a very intense session, and even though you are feeling lousy, I think you've tapped into some very important feelings.

As you know, I had a similar situation recently with my t, where her moving my sessions around too much triggered intense anger and feelings of rejection -- and just like you said, the feelings were way too huge and painful to be "just" about what my t did.

For some reason, seeing M. talking happily on the phone probably triggered an unconscious or subconscious memory you have from the past, when you felt left out.

It makes sense to me too that you exploded at home with your h. Once those triggers get stirred up, it is very hard to contain them! They can continue to surface after you leave the session because your mind and body are trying to process them still. It sounds like your anger surfaced with your h also. I found this also happened to me. As I felt the anger toward my t, I also found myself reacting suddenly and angrily toward my h over little things. It is all connected.

I'm sorry you have to deal with the mess of having the flood! It sounds very frustrating!!

Hang in there, Rainbow! Considering everything, I think you are doing great!

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thanks, ultramar. Yes, it was kind of intense! I did have those reactions you listed but my main insight is that it is more than that, that it's about something from my past. The hurt was too huge, and the pain too deep to be about her transitioning to someone else on her phone. She sees clients back to back, so I've seen the next person many times without that reaction. I've heard her on the phone other times too. I think part of it is me as an adult, but most of my reaction was as a child.

I've had about 15 years of talk therapy with 4 other Ts, and I do talk to my T because I like talking with her! She's the first T I've had who uses other methods, including teaching me mindfulness meditation and encouraging me to take yoga. I love IFS which is basically talk therapy, and we did that for the first year or so. But she's taking advanced training in somatic experiencing and it's getting me to get to know my body better--all good for me even though it's a little weird.


I didn't read the thread or article about transference yet. Yeah, my T thinks it's probably about my Mom not meeting my needs, though she certainly loved me enough! All my Ts told me my needs weren't met in the past though they didn't know how or why not. I was told maybe my Mom and I didn't "fit" right, or maybe she was too anxious. It doesn't matter so much. My T says SE will help me not be triggered so much by those kinds of experiences. My body will learn how to cope better. It's worth a try!

That's a great insight that you see that this time was different than other times -sometimes it can be hard to make those kinds of distinctions.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by artemis-within

What is SE?

SE stands for somatic experiencing. It's a technique deveolped by Peter Levine, who wrote a book called Waking the Tiger. It's based on observations of how animals in the wild handle stress and trauma. They move in certain ways and then they go back to their normal life. I know it's more complicated than that; I haven't read the book yet. So, based on that premise, Ts who are trained in SE have clients move slowly in ways that will eliminate trauma. It has to be slow, she says. It's a way of getting the body and brain to release the trauma. It doesn't cover it up. You have to feel it, and work with it in using a certain protocol. I know it sounds weird, but when I think of that image of her on her phone, laughing, I don't feel so triggered now. I know my T wouldn't pay for a 3 yr. training program in SE if she didn't believe it works! She says it's like EMDR, which is more well-known but a different way of relieving trauma.

Originally Posted by peaches100

Hi Rainbow,

It sounds like a very intense session, and even though you are feeling lousy, I think you've tapped into some very important feelings.

As you know, I had a similar situation recently with my t, where her moving my sessions around too much triggered intense anger and feelings of rejection -- and just like you said, the feelings were way too huge and painful to be "just" about what my t did.

For some reason, seeing M. talking happily on the phone probably triggered an unconscious or subconscious memory you have from the past, when you felt left out.

It makes sense to me too that you exploded at home with your h. Once those triggers get stirred up, it is very hard to contain them! They can continue to surface after you leave the session because your mind and body are trying to process them still. It sounds like your anger surfaced with your h also. I found this also happened to me. As I felt the anger toward my t, I also found myself reacting suddenly and angrily toward my h over little things. It is all connected.

I'm sorry you have to deal with the mess of having the flood! It sounds very frustrating!!

Hang in there, Rainbow! Considering everything, I think you are doing great!

Thanks, Peaches. I think you're right about everything you posted to me!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ultramar

That's a great insight that you see that this time was different than other times -sometimes it can be hard to make those kinds of distinctions.

I think that my wanting my Ts to give me undivided attention, unconditional love, and everything else I want has always been transference but it's been difficult for me to accept that. Yesterday was hard for me. I sent my T an email that I really still feel like I want to hurt her, but then I wrote "I really want to hurt whoever discarded me!" and I know that's not my T. What has always been so frustrating for me is that I can't say it's because my Mom or Dad mistreated me. They didn't.

It's scary to think that I have these feelings anyway, just because of genetics or because my mother wasn't exactly attuned to me as an infant. But my Ts have told me over and over that something had to have been "off"--my needs weren't met--for me to have these feelings and problems. Since I can't ever know exactly why, it's time to use my T's skill in helping me become less triggered by the situations where I have these strong feelings. I have hopefully finally accepted that it's not about my T.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I think that my wanting my Ts to give me undivided attention, unconditional love, and everything else I want has always been transference but it's been difficult for me to accept that. Yesterday was hard for me. I sent my T an email that I really still feel like I want to hurt her, but then I wrote "I really want to hurt whoever discarded me!" and I know that's not my T. What has always been so frustrating for me is that I can't say it's because my Mom or Dad mistreated me. They didn't.

It's scary to think that I have these feelings anyway, just because of genetics or because my mother wasn't exactly attuned to me as an infant. But my Ts have told me over and over that something had to have been "off"--my needs weren't met--for me to have these feelings and problems. Since I can't ever know exactly why, it's time to use my T's skill in helping me become less triggered by the situations where I have these strong feelings. I have hopefully finally accepted that it's not about my T.

Could it be that your mother provided you with 'too much' attention? I think you said once that she was very protective of you, maybe overprotective, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly. Maybe that has led to the desire/need for so much attention from your T's (and others, if applicable)? Has anyone suggested this? I of course could be way off, just something that just occurred to me.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ultramar

Could it be that your mother provided you with 'too much' attention? I think you said once that she was very protective of you, maybe overprotective, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly. Maybe that has led to the desire/need for so much attention from your T's (and others, if applicable)? Has anyone suggested this? I of course could be way off, just something that just occurred to me.

Yes, that's correct. My mother overprotected me and was always "there" until she got sick and died when I was 33. Others suggested that could be part of my issues. My Mom probably didn't separate from me and didn't let me become independent. I think that's why I didn't develop a secure sense of Self.

My T is always trying to build up my sense of Self. In fact, I just typed an email but I sent it to me, and not to her. It's about needing someone else to define me, to give me a sense of Self, or I feel like I'm nothing. I used my Mom for that, I guess, and then Ts. But my Ts in the past also thought there was something wrong with the bonding between my Mom and me. There could be more than one answer. I give up trying to figure it out! I'm not sure if I was enmeshed with my Mom, though. I went away to college and got married, but she was still there, trying to make a lot of my decisions for me. I just sort of went on after she passed away, but that's when I began therapy. My best friend said I told her I wanted to die. I vaguely remember that. I had never considered therapy before. I wasn't the kind of person who would ever reveal her feelings!!

[ultramar]

I wasn't the kind of person who would ever reveal her feelings!!

Well it's great you're doing so now --it takes a lot of courage!