Mothering Relationships: Oprah & Maya Angelou

Early in my therapy, my t made the comment that it wasn't healthy or appropriate to want an older female friend to love me like a parent. As a person with fairly significant attachment issues, this may be true for me. I have attempted one or two such relationships as an adult with older female friends. Although they started out wonderfully and brought mutual benefits, they ended in a very messy, painful way. The painful dynamics of the ending of those relationships was a recreation of the rejection/abandonment scenario I experienced with my parents in childhood. Since then, I have strictly avoided forming an attachments of this sort. Yet the painful longing and earnest yearning for a loving, accepting, maternal influence in my life has continued unabated. I know the problem is fueled by the deprivations of my childhood, but knowing that does nothing to lessen the hunger and longing.

Yet at the same time that my desire for a maternal figure in my life is viewed as inappropriate and un-natural, I see that a close mother-daughter type bond does exist with some people, does seem healthy, and does bring what appears to be an infinite amount of joy, belonging, love, and gratitude.

The most recent example of this is the relationship that exists between Oprah Winfrey and Maya Angelou (author of the book "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" and well-known advocate for African American civil rights for women). Their relationship was highlighted in the interview Oprah conducted with Maya, where she asked Maya to talk about her childhood, successes, challenges, and life views. Oprah talked openly about the close mother-daughter type relationship they had shared for years. Oprah expressed what a wonderful mentor and role model Maya had always been for her. Maya said that she had a son, but had always wanted a daughter also. But since she didn't have a daughter, "I took other people's daughters. I certainly took you, Oprah." The magazine showed a picture of Maya and Oprah together, with Maya sitting in a chair, and Oprah on the floor at her feet, with her head in Maya's lap and her arms wrapped around her legs.

It was beautiful, and it described so well the sort of relationship I've always needed, and never found. It made me very, very sad. I cut the article out of the magazine and have toyed with taking it to my session and talking to my t about it.

I would like to know why it is healthy and OK for people like Maya and Oprah, but not for me?

I would also like to know how a person goes about finding a relationship of this sort?

And most importantly, I would like to know this:

If a person like me has suffered deep emotional deprivation in childhood that expresses itself now as an unrelentless, empty emotional deprivation that drives me to find a parental-mentor type relationship such as Oprah and Maya have -- but which instead has always led to harmful relationships of exploitation that end in a re-creation of the abandonment of childhood. . .how does a person of this sort ever fill that relentless empty hole inside? If they never find such a relationship of mutual love, intimacy, and acceptance that is so necessary between parent and child - -and which is exemplified in the relationship between Oprah and Maya, how does one ever truly heal?

I think part of the problem is we have not had such a relationship but we can see good ones and imagine. Imagination can be a powerful tool but can also get us in trouble?

Maya and Oprah are very distinct individuals; both are centered/grounded "self-supporting" and have good senses of self-esteem/worth, etc. Their relationship is mutual and decided on mutually, almost like a love relationship.

For me, the way I worked with my longing for a good emotional relationship was through therapy with an older female therapist. Before that I had had an older woman I considered my mentor who was nurturing but I was in therapy then, too, and knew not to lean harder on the relationship than the relationship could bear (not be demanding of the other person but learn to accept what the other person offered). But, for me, therapy was the key where I learned my self-worth/confidence and how to center and balance myself. I can enjoy a relationship with an older woman now but accept it for what it is rather than let my imagination run rampant through it, trying to make it what it is not or cannot be (with that person). I learned to nurture myself in my adult state and my younger child self too so the yearning desire for the child/mother bond lessened and was pretty much resolved.

I know of the concept of "self-parenting" and "self-love." And yet I find that attempts to love and nurture myself, as a mother would do for a child, do not work for me. I did not get such nurturing from my parents. I do not have any children. I have no experience in nurturing. I have no inner concept of how it does, or should, feel to love or nurture a child. I also don't know what it does, or should, feel like to be nurtured and get emotional needs met. I don't have an understanding, experience, or a pattern that I can follow to give to myself what I did not receive in childhood.

But what I DO know is how it feels to desperately needs nurturing, love, acceptance, guidance, and protection. I know what it feels like to need certain things that feel as necessary to survival as air and water. Yet I don't know how to meet these needs in myself. After years in therapy, it is painful and frustrating to meet up, again and again, with the unmet needs and pain of my childhood, and to try to heal. I feel like an empty vessel attemtping to fill another empty vessel. I feel like a blind adult trying to teach a blind child what it is like to experience sight. I try, and I fail. I try, and I fail. Every few steps forward results in 2 steps back.

The progress of healing is so slow. The pain and need are so great. And although my therapist is committed and caring, if I lean on her too much for contact between sessions, for a hug, for reassurance -- even in times of crisis and need -- she always directs me back to myself. Ultimately, it is MY job to be my own parent. And I can't seem to learn how. I don't know how to do it. I feel alone and afraid much of the time.

I am not a good parent to myself. I don't know how to be. And even when I take some loving action toward myself, it is not the same as receiving that sort of care from another human being. It feels simply "not enough." And yet, "It Is What It Is."

How do you get past the pain of not having something that feels like a necessity? What does it take to give up the dream of attaining the sort of relationship with another person that I cannot have with my own mom? How many exploitative relationships will it take before I accept that the risk is too great, and the chances of a parental-type relationships of deep mutual love and support too rare, to continue holding out hope? How can I benefit from the resources of my therapist without holding out such hope for love from her, and then continuing to be hurt by the limitations of the therapy relationship?

"If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, what a sweet world it would be."

Perna,

It helps me to know you have been successful in getting past the horribly painful stage I feel that I am stuck in.

Could you please share what specific ways you found to nurture your own "inner child," for lack of a better term? How did you build up your own sense of love, confidence, grounding, etc., so that the need for a parent figure lessened its painful grip? At the risk of sounding stupid, I need some ideas that will work.

A blind adult can only teach about and help a blind child deal with what it is like to be blind.

You can never get the mother/daughter relationship you did not have with your own mother. You have to mourn that with the child self and know, in yourself, that the "two" of you will be okay because you have one another.

When I was around 45, I was making biscuits from scratch one day and the dough was too wet and stuck to my hands, was very "messy" and wouldn't come off, and I instantly felt like a young child and more or less called out to my "mommy" to make things better, to get the goo off my hands, I didn't like it!

Unfortunately, I flashed to my stepmother and realized she was being operated on that day, was in the hospital and not available so I quickly flashed to my mother, and, too late, fell into the fact that she died when I was 3, after being critically ill all my life (from two years before I was born). There was no one for me, to help me.

Fortunately my 45 year old self came along and soothed the panicked selves (my stepmother use to criticize me for getting messy; it wasn't until I was in my 40's that I could enjoy eating an ice cream cone without getting anxious that I'd get in "trouble"; I still have some difficulty with sandwiches (I like extra mayo) and any task that requires I get my hands "in it") and simply went to the sink and "solved" the problem. The whole thing was one scary 10 seconds followed by feeling quite proud of myself and I told my T of my experience (and told her about the Bisquick biscuit baskets I'd made (filled with a chicken in gravy sort of mixture) and did such a good job she expressed the wish I'd brought her one to see :-)

It is learning to feel the unmet needs of one's younger self and then remembering one's actual, adult self and all that she can do now (like think to wash the child's hands :-) that helped me feel better about myself. I AM an adult now, despite feeling feelings of a much younger self sometimes. It's the more balanced (thanks to therapy) older self that has the experience and abilities to think of solutions that I celebrate while at the same time being very grateful I have those momentary child feelings and remembrances. I am "whole" and not just stuck in older modes of feeling or forced to stay in the "now" because I may not be able to cope with myself feeling all the feelings I've had occasion to feel, be confronted with the problems that will come into my life.

It is a little like when I am anxious now, sometimes I wake at night and I might, say, get anxious because of the dust on the door lintel and worry that I'll become an old lady surrounded in filth and unable to care for myself but, the next morning, I dust that door lintel, take care of that problem in the now and know myself competent, now. Feeling the feelings of the past is like feeling the feelings of the imagined future; I made it through the past and am here now so I can continue to make it through. I was "abandoned" as a child but my spirit and self made it through. Yes, it hurt and was very difficult and that child lives in me now but I am proud of her, she did her best and got me to here, now.

I read the interview too and thought it was lovely as well.

I'm not sure about the statement that you "shouldn't" have a similar type of mentoring relationship. Is it possible that whoever has told you this is wrong? What do you believe about whether or not this would work for you, which is different than whether or not you want it?

As to why Oprah and not you, and how you find such a relationship, a couple of things come to mind. One is that Oprah has done an enormous amount of work on herself, has been public about her struggles with growing up in an abusive and neglectful family, has been open about her CSA, has been "walking the walk" for many years about acceptance, gratitude, and other spiritual awakenings. I'm sure she's a flawed individual like everyone else, but she has definitely put in the effort to have deep and satisfying relationships.

I have been mentored and I have mentored others, but not in anything I would consider mother-daughter in either direction. I"m not opposed to the idea, it sounds vaguely present, but it's not something that I would go out looking for.

I think that mentoring relationships are born out of mutual interests, and that you would be likely to find one if you follow your interests, whether work or volunteer, and make an effort to connect with those in your worlds. I suspect that Oprah and Maya, two incredibly hard-working, creative people, admire each other for how they approach their work and what they have accomplished. I would guess that their relationship began as a friendship because each had something to offer the other and grew from there. So a piece of this is not just how you find a mentor, but what you have to offer someone else. Even a mother/daughter relationship in this adult context is not all about Oprah and fulfilling her every desire.

I also think this interest of yours is related to your other thread about being routinely disappointed that others do not treat you as important enough (as you interpret things). I don't think that a mentor wants to invest their time and emotions in someone who communicates her disappointment that whatever she does is not enough. Even if you say nothing, other people can feel your disappointment in them, and it doesn't feel good. I would hazard to say that I believe that interpreting other people's behavior, when it's not exactly what you want, as it being because you are not important enough, is poison for relationships. I don't think that people want to feel blamed for always "making" someone feel disappointed or unimportant. I think if you can work on reversing or dampening this dynamic in your relationships, you may find that healthier people are willing to engage with you.

ITA, Anne. Neediness is not what attracts, nor makes possible, a mentoring relationship. It, in fact, repels them.

I don't think there's anything magical about what makes such relationships work. It is much like a marriage in the sense that each person brings something to the mix. It isn't about the depth of need "deserving" such a reparative experience. I don't mean to suggest that either person must be perfect, but the relationship does need to be balanced in need and fulfillment on both sides.

I've been very lucky to both have and be a mentor in my life. And I have to say, I enjoy each "side" equally. I don't "need" one more than the other.

I think as long as we need to be filled, we will never experience fulfillment.

peaches, i think that when you have grieved the loss of the mother you didn't have then you will be free to accept what others can give you. if you try to fill up that space without doing the necessary healing first i think that is what causes the problems. grieving will bring you to a place of acceptance and peace and then you will not strive to fill that need but be able to freely accept it when it comes. it's like trying to pour clean water into a cup full of murky water. first, you have to empty the cup of the murky water, then you can fill it with the clean water. pouring clean water into the cup full of murky water just stirs up the murky water and it starts spilling out all over. it might be more helpful for you to focus more on just grieving than trying to nurture yourself too. i hear you many times trying to nurture yourself while you are grieving and i think you might be trying to do too many things at once. just get the hurt and pain out. feel your feelings. yes, it will hurt like h e l l. grieve, cry, scream, etc. then, i think you can learn to nurture yourself.

[quote=peaches100;3058371]Early in my therapy, my t made the comment that it wasn't healthy or appropriate to want an older female friend to love me like a parent. [/quote]
I'm a little surprised at this, and I'm not sure all therapists would agree.

As you point out, parental-style relationships between adults do exist, and can be satisfying to both parties.

On the other hand, not all adults are prepared to be mentors and you could be setting yourself up for rejection.

I always wanted my bosses to be father figures and most were unable or unwilling to do that. My current boss is OK with it.

I think maybe you are reading too much into the Oprah relationship. I know what the interview says, and yes the pic is loving and beautiful....but....how many pics did they take? How many were awful? How much "touch-up" did the photo need? What I am saying is what you are seeing and reading is not actually real. It's not a loving pose, it was staged by a great photographer. Oprah doesn't actually go sit at her feet several times a week. We don't really know how often they get together. Basing our own relationship and life on what we read isn't really a good thing.

I have children, and dogs...so I nurture a lot. Several of my daughters friends are kind of attached to me, two of them even call me mom. I care about them greatly, but the love isn't as deep and attached as to my own daughter. I have a niece whom I adore, and I frequently say "she's like one of my own"... but she lived with me for several years, I have cared for her since birth, so my attachment is kind of on a mother/daughter level with her.

I am not saying it's not possible to find that mothering relationship, of course it's possible, but it happens spontaneously. It isn't something you can create or force. I'm sorry that you've never had that, I really wish you'd had. I think grieving it is a big part. Maybe learning how to mother and nurture another person would help you to nurture yourself? Become a big sister? Volunteer to mentor displaced kids? Or if animals are your thing help out in a shelter or something? Perhaps you can turn on your nurturing parts by caring for another?

I think it's really important to acknowledge that Maya and Oprah are celebrities and we can't know what kind of relationship they really have when they're not being filmed.

I completely sympathise with what you're saying, as I too crave those kind of relationships, but I'm not sure torturing yourself with a potentially false celebrity relationship is going to help.

Others have said the rest better than I can.

Perna,

You made a good point about both Oprah and Maya being self-supporting and grounded. Oprah doesn't appear needy or like she needs Maya to help her be complete. I get that.

Maybe that's the difference between parental-type relationships between mentally healthy adults vs. parental-type relationships with people who have trauma-related attachment needs due to childhood neglect. With Oprah and Maya, it can be more 50-50. I can understand that, and it's a good point.

So maybe what I need to realize is that is "IS" possible to have a nurturing mother-daughter type relationship, but it still should be between two equals, not where one of them is trying to fill the other one up all the time. Perhaps that is the reason my t told me that the sort of relationship I was looking for wasn't healthy between two friends, but is more suitable for the therapeutic relationship where childhood wounds are worked on and healed.

I'm understanding this a bit more now. It doesn't take away the painful yearning and longing, but it does make sense.

Perna,

Thanks for sharing what has worked for you. Maybe I haven't mourned the loss like I need to. Having not learned how to tolerate emotional pain growing up, but instead learning to suppress it, I have a hard time accessing it. . .and when I do, it can erupt like a volcano, drowning me in much more pain that I handle or is good for me. So I tend to really FEAR feeling my pain! I keep hoping the more I work on coping skills, the less afraid I will be to let the stored up pain just come out and get out of me so I don't have to keep carrying around so much. Another difficulty for me about grieving is that I was shamed alot as a kid for crying and showing other emotions. So I always feel ashamed when I cry in my session. I know grieving turns me into a sobbing mess, and it makes me feel weak. It's just. . .hard. I have a hard-wired belief that I need to be strong at all times, and it shames me when I can't be.

I really like your experience about the dough, and felt touched reading it. I'm reallly glad to hear that after you got yourself through the situation, you felt proud of yourself. That tells me that the more I can learn to take care of my own needs, maybe the better I will feel about myself, and then the less I will feel inadequate and needy, like I need someone to be helping and directing me in life.

It sounds like you are doing really well in your healing. How you explain it sounds kind of like what my t has been trying to work with me on. . .building up my adult self more, so that I have that side of me that feels competent and capable of taking care of myself when I get scared, needy, or in emotional pain. Right now, it doesn't feel like my adult self is very competent at all to do that. I AM competent in my job, etc., but I'm talking about emotional needs, you know? And it feels like, when I get triggered, sometimes the adult part of me disappears somewhere, and I only feel the scared child part of me. I need a way to keep BOTH parts of me present when I'm doing trauma work. I need to keep working with my t on these things.

Anne,

What do you believe about whether or not this would work for you, which is different than whether or not you want it?

Anne,

What do you believe about whether or not this would work for you, which is different than whether or not you want it?

No, I don't think it would work for me -- not now -- unless it was in the t relationship while I'm working on this stuff. When I tried it in the past with friends, I could see the problems. For one, I lost my power, and they began to control me (and I let it happen because feeling loved made me feel safe). Trying to break away from that control later became a real problem in the relationship. Also, I think I mistook their control for love. I thought they loved me, but what they loved was how I made them feel important and powerful. When I took steps to be more independent and/or began to disagree with their advice, etc. things turned out badly. In one case, my friend ended up dumping me because I didn't take her advice and she decided I wasn't worthy of her continued support. She went out and found someone else she thought was more deserving of help.

Maybe after I heal more, I could have the kind of parental relationship Oprah and Maya have. I don't think I look for the right kind of people anyway. As long as I feel inept, weak, needy, and scared in so many areas of life, I want to pick people who are strong, confident, protective, and directive -- basically authoritative people with a strong narcissistic drive. I know this about me. I'm drawn to people like that. Those were the kind of older women I sought as mother figures. I guess it shows more things I need to work on. I know it isn't good for me to yearn for connection with people like that, but I do.

Yes, I understand what you mean when you say that Oprah has been very open, honest, and has really reached out to encourage others and find connections. I have not done that. I'm really introverted, have a hard time opening up to people or initiating social events. I often feel enmeshed too if someone comes on too strongly in wanting to be my friend and spend alot of time together. I've been told I come off as nice but aloof, and hard to get to know.

You also make sense when you said I'd be more likely to find the kind of relationship I am looking for if we both shared some common interest. In my case, the two women were in my congregation. I would most likely seek it there because it's a very important part of my life. But I'm just picking the wrong kind of people there to get close to because of my own dysfunctions. The two women i got close to aren't considered very empathetic, affectionate, etc. by other congregation members. They really aren't that well liked because they come off as judgemental and arrogant. So again, I've got a problem in seeking out people like this. I need to work on healing first, and then look for a different sort of person to form friendships with. I just am not sure what I need to do to stop desiring relationships that end up hurting me?

As far as getting disappointed in mentors and blaming them for not living up to my expectations, I have never done that with anybody except my t. In the relationships I had with the two older women, I felt privileged to be in a relationship with them and I wanted to please them. Even when they hurt my feelings or let me down, I didn't let them know. I don't think my parents even know the depth of my pain about how they raised me. I've never been comfortable communicating my hurt and disappointment, or especially, anger. It has only been since I started in therapy that I have learned to start expressing negative feelings with her and with my h. It still feels weird, and I am not very good at it. Sometimes i swing too far into the demanding/selfish area and then am horrified and go back to not expressing at all. I haven't found the right balance yet.

Well, I'm self-conscious now that I've blabbed this much. I'm sure I've said far more than anybody needs or wants to know.

Thanks again for your post.

Hi Feralkittymom,

I appreciate your comments and they make sense to me. Thanks!

Not at all ("blabbing" too much). I think you've made a lot of progress and are very insightful and honest in this post about your past and the issues you've faced. And your desire to do differently. I believe that you can get to the point where you can have the kind of relationships that you want.

I get the overcorrection problem and the difficulty of finding balance between saying what's important for you to say in a way that doesn't run people over. I think this is normal and natural, and is probably a life long effort. I think being aware, as you are, and trying to make that balance work bodes well for you and your future relationships.

Hi Blur,

It never crossed my mind that one of the problems might be that I am trying to skip the step of grieving. But these comments to my thread are making me consider that it might play a role in why I can't get past being "stuck" when it comes to nurturing myself. I might be trying to bypass the grief stage because of my intense fear of feeling my own emotional pain. I have to admit that when it comes to being my own mom, so far I am not good at it. I am scared and overwhelmed by the pain and needs of that hurt child part of me. I want to ignore it so it will go away. I don't know how to deal with it. Sadly, I think that is the same problem my real mom had too. She ignored my pain because she didn't know what to do about it.

Also, my dad belittled and laughed at me for showing my emotions. And I do that to myself also. When I cry, I hear myself saying what a big baby I am, how weak I am, how stupid that I feel so weak and needy like I do, that I should be stronger. It makes it SO HARD for me to access my feelings and feel them. One part of me is trying to ignore them, and the other part of me is ridiculing me for having them. And then there's the part of me that feels small, scared, weak, and is crying out for help. It's like parts of me are working against myself. It gets frustrating and discouraging, and sometimes I want to give up, thinking that I'm just too messed up to straighten myself out.

Thanks for pointing out that I may need to concentrate on how to grieve. To do that, I have to find a way to get past the avoiding and shaming parts of myself that stand in the way.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. My mum was the same and it really hurts.

[quote=CantExplain;3060386]
Hi Can't Explain,

Thanks for reminding me that not all people are capable or prepared to be mentors. I am picking the wrong people. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it is actually a mentor I am looking for. It's more like I am looking for a strong protective parent to take care of me and keep me safe because life scares me and I don't feel able to take care of myself. . .just saying that is making me cry. it sounds so sad and so pathetic. And the weird thing is, there are some people who see me as being strong and confident and would be shocked to know that, deep down, I feel the way I do. I am SO GOOD at keeping up my "front." But it is just that, a front. I feel like an imposter, like a little kid dressed in grown-up clothes and pretending to be an adult.

Hi WickedPissah,

I get that it's a celebrity relationship and the pose was staged. But I still think that Oprah and Maya had a say in how they were photographed. The fact that they chose the photo they did is, I think, because they wanted to portray the humility and honor that Oprah feels in her relationship with Maya. Maybe I'm too idealistic, but I believe that they really do have a close relationship. But yes, I realize Oprah doesn't go sit at her feet several times a week. But that's not what i was implying. I do realize that.

I hadn't thought about the issue of spontaneous relationships versus sought-after ones. Maybe the desperation I feel inside made me try to find it, not able to sit back and just let things unfold day by day. When I think about the friends I've had throughout my life, they have been more spontaneous than planned.

You have a good idea with how I might get involved nurturing others. Even though I am a terrible introvert, I really do like people and very much like the idea of helping them. I have a good husband who is disabled and has many health problems, so I get a chance to show empathy with him. And I LOVE animals! If I didn't work full-time, I know I would want to volunteer at an animal shelter or nursing home, and I also do some volunteer ministry work. It does feel good to help others. And it does get my mind off of my own problems.

Hi Tinyrabbit,

Thank you so much for empathizing with me. I'm really sorry you didn't have the sort of relationship with your mom that you needed. I hope you are able to work through your pain and find ways to fill that empty hole that you may also feel inside.

Tinyrabbit,

I know, you're right, I'm torturing myself! I'm my own worst enemy sometimes. Maybe I should throw out the article instead of carrying it around in my purse to remind me of what I "don't" have, huh?

Peaches, I have a close relationship with my mother, but it doesn't involve nestling my head on her lap. Remember that is very staged for publicity. I don't doubt they are good friends and that Angelou feels motherly toward Oprah at times, but they are celebrities and are posing for cameras. That's not real life.

Consider mentoring some children or working with them in some fashion so you can get a feel of what "nuturing" is all about. As a mother, I can tell you with a certainty, it isn't always rosey, even while I'm nuturing my children. That parental relationship isn't a "romantic" ideal; it is hard work and not all pleasantness. You seem to have a very idealistic vision of what parental nurturing is.

Thank you. I wish the same things for you. I do think you're really torturing yourself here and I can understand why - this is hard and it hurts!

One thing I've been considering is maybe helping out some old people eg going to read to them or shop for them. I was thinking that kind of volunteering could be a nice way to strike up a relationship with someone older. Obviously not like a mentor as I would be helping them but still seems a nice idea.