I was just reading about Adam Phillips, a psychologist who had theory that the way for a person with a narcissistic personality disorder or borderline with narcissistic traits to become emotionally healthy, was for that person to RE-EXPERIENCE the narcissistic injury of realizing that he or she is not the center of the universe and not all important. That essentially, the person has to come to realize the fact of life that she or he WILL be excluded from things and isn't omni-important and omnipotent, and that they just have to accept those facts.

Coming at it from the perspective of having a mother with these issues, I would LOVE on some level to see her forced into experiencing these things and having to deal with them. I was wondering what other people thought about the potential effectiveness of such treatment, and also whether a person with those disorders would even stick around for such a treatment.

For those who know about DBT, is that what DBT teaches?

[pbutton]

I am quite certain I wouldn't need therapy if certain members of my family were forced to experience the fact that it is completely acceptable and right for them to be excluded from things. I would die of happiness.

[stopdog]

It sounds extremely cruel to me. But maybe because I picture people being forced to do it against their will. I have no idea whether the technique works if voluntary.

[murray]

Wow. I can't imagine any of the people in my life with those issues ever agreeing to participate in that sort of experience. I would be afraid that they would just get even angrier and they would lash out at others for failing them once again.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by stopdog

It sounds extremely cruel to me. But maybe because I picture people being forced to do it against their will. I have no idea whether the technique works if voluntary.

I kind of pictured it as the polar opposite of my T telling me I need to become more interconnected and rely on other people. It's not exactly glitter and unicorns for me, it can be VERY painful, but it's probably a necessary change. Totally voluntary on my part though.

[likelife]

Does Phillips talk about how to facilitate the re-experiencing of that injury?

[unaluna]

Dbt does not talk about trying to fix someone else. What kind of psychotherapy does? None that I know of. You have a pretty short window left of legally being able to get your kids any kind of medical treatment, let alone your mother. Dbt pretty much just shows you how to accept things as they are without going nutso (technical term).

Thanks for the technical definition, hankister. LOL. Yeah, I wasn't really meaning to force anyone (except my mother in my fantasies of retribution). That's why I asked if anyone thought that the person would stick around for the treatment.

Likelife, I just skimmed an article talking about his theory. I didn't read his actual book.

[skysblue]

I suspect one of my daughters has narcissistic personality disorder and I can't imagine her EVER agreeing that she needs help.

[Kacey2]

Hey MKAC,
That does sound like an incredibly insensitive therapuetic model. And to be frank when a person with borderline personality disorder senses such negative connotation towards them by anyone who claims to help they would either blow them up or run like h@ll!

When I think of a person with borderline or narcissistic traits I think of someone stuck in a child phase where they can not see the world from a view point of another. It is not neccessarily intentional, it is a state of psyche immaturity.

As a person who not only completed one but two rounds of DBT. I can definately tell you that is not in there curriculum. There are four main chapters/lessons and they are: mindfulness, emotion regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness. I can see how in the interpersonal effectiveness training, a person could learn insight on how another feels about their interactions with the learner. They will also grow in their interpersonal effectiveness by having to negotiate their way in a group setting.

Inflicting pain or any "narcissistic crisis" on any borderline is a ridiculous plan. For the most part these people have already been traumatized way beyond even the majority of the psychiatric population. And for those that have not been traumatized they have been biologically made to have emotional skin likened to those of a burn victim. Which is more than not effective; it would be harmful to the patient and certainly not ethical for any supposed mental health provider.

You asked for opinions and this is just mine. I have not looked at the article you described. Could you please provide a link? Thanks.

[unaluna]

I googled "adam phillips narcissistic injury" and it brought up a page in his book "beasts in the nursery" and a rather prosaic discussion of Freud and transference love. I didn't see anything about calling somebody else out. And when I said get your kids medical care, I meant as long as they are under 18.

Mkac, you keep writing very provocative posts. Have you considered asking your t to look at them? Cuz it feels like you keep asking for some kind of help, then saying no I didn't dial 911, what are all these firetrucks doing here? Or it could be just me. But I'm never wrong much!

I didn't wish for this thread to be provocative. Really. I read what I thought was an interesting article when checking around after our discussion on the other thread, and then asked what other people thought of this stupid theory from the 1970s because, while the retribution portion of my brain would love to see my mom go through such a treatment, I could not imagine a person who actually has such a disorder submitting to the treatment. I was making conversation about something I thought was really interesting and wondered what other people thought. Hankster, you were the one who jumped on me about the whole forcing someone thing, and throwing my kids into it. I never suggested forcing anyone (other than my mother and admitted that was a retribution fantasy) into anything.

If you are feeling provoked hankster, perhaps YOU should show this thread to your T and discuss why you're so sensitive about this.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I was just reading about Adam Phillips, a psychologist who had theory that the way for a person with a narcissistic personality disorder or borderline with narcissistic traits to become emotionally healthy, was for that person to RE-EXPERIENCE the narcissistic injury of realizing that he or she is not the center of the universe and not all important. That essentially, the person has to come to realize the fact of life that she or he WILL be excluded from things and isn't omni-important and omnipotent, and that they just have to accept those facts.

Coming at it from the perspective of having a mother with these issues, I would LOVE on some level to see her forced into experiencing these things and having to deal with them. I was wondering what other people thought about the potential effectiveness of such treatment, and also whether a person with those disorders would even stick around for such a treatment.

For those who know about DBT, is that what DBT teaches?

I think that -for those people you describe, which is surely a diverse group, so this is going to be a gross generalization, I'll say at the outset- the experience of therapy in and of itself will likely inflict a narcissistic injury, and maybe of the most painful kind. Because the therapist, for many, is the center of one's world (say, emotionally, safety-wise) and once one realizes as the patient that you are not the center of *their* world, well... I think it's liable to happen, regardless, and may be one reason why some people have a very difficult time staying in therapy. There was another thread on 'disappointment' and I think this is related.

Some people may 'need' that narcissistic injury (as I say, I think it happens naturally) more than others. And this is where I'd say that the therapist attempting to be the 'perfect' caretaker, can get people into big trouble. Either you won't experience the narcissistic injury you 'need' to grow (at some point we need to stop idealizing our parents in order to grow into adulthood) or at some point or another you will be disappointed, the therapist will plummet from the pedestal and all hell will break loose -a good therapist may be able to work with this 'hell' and much good will come of it, in other instances, or many, it will not work out.

This is all, of course, entirely theoretical.

[unaluna]

I have. Talked about your threads I mean. Like the one about your younger dog who got his own cookie. That really bothered me. But probably because of my r/s with my mother. She heard my brother but not me. Thanks, really.

Eta: ultramar: yeah, I think that's what brought me to pc 2 years ago, now that you mention it. He's off the pedestal and I'm trying to get off ground zero.

The difference, hankster, is that I tried to figure out what the dog wanted, and genuinely cared that she wanted to tell me something. When she did it herself, I praised her and told her how adorable she is. And the next morning, made extra special sure that she got her cookie. Your mom failed to realize how adorable you were and wasn't trying to hear you. That was her fault. Not yours.

[Inedible]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

That essentially, the person has to come to realize the fact of life that she or he WILL be excluded from things and isn't omni-important and omnipotent, and that they just have to accept those facts.

It happens to everyone. Being excluded isn't the important realization. What matters is knowing that there is still plenty which is available. There is enough to go around.

And honestly, what would be the point of showing my T this thread? My mother was a narcissist or borderline, or some combination thereof. I have some revenge fantasies and this interesting article briefly fed into them. I quickly realized that it was kind of a useless theory for the reasons I stated, but was interested in what others thought. Nothing there that is super deep or involved or anything he does not already know.

[stopdog]

I have never had revenge fantasies about my mother - I think it is brave MKAC that you let yourself do it. Nor the csa relative. I have had them about the therapist after she mocked me, but only to the point where she looks sad or scared, and then I relent and let her go. I did about my sibling too, but again, would always, even in the fantasy, stop as soon as he looked upset.
I suck at fantasy revenge.
I think fantasy is a good and useful thing. I had not really realized that I am a fantasy wimp as well as in real life.

[unaluna]

I'm worried about your daughter. I fear you're being overprotective - or something - im not quite sure what. I don't really want to talk about it or argue about it because it's not my place, I don't have kids, I may be projecting, and I have caused trouble in my own family by saying stuff. But that's why I say show your recent threads - not just this one - to your t. I sense a house on fire. And I really don't want to be reassured that everything is okay, because it's not. But I can accept that it's your decision. I think this is what my other thread was really about, I just didn't want to say it. Well I feel pretty stupid now. But better. And I apologize for getting into your business. i will stay out now, promise.

Hankster, I really don't talk enough about my daughter for you to know what is going on with her. I have posted some, it's true, but not enough so anyone knows her or my situation. I do appreciate your willingness to stay out of it when you have only a tiny fraction of the information. If I post a thread asking for input about my daughter, then by all means, post away. In the meantime, keep my child out of it.

[Perna]

I don't think such an experience can be engineered from the outside. We are not in charge of what others feel, how they perceive, what they think, or do. I'm sure you know the story of the boy and "there must be a pony in there somewhere"? (huge pile of ****)

[WikidPissah]

Wow. If I could only force them into that? Hmmmm.

I don't know how you can hurt someone who is hurt by every little thing. Seriously, I don't know what type of hurt it would take. I have told my mother point blank that my life isn't about her. She still didn't get it. Narcissistic people just don't ever see it's not all about them. They would take the hurt, compound it, and they jump on their platform and use it to gain even more attention for themselves. My mother would never submit to treatment. It's a nice fantasy though.

And...sorry if I am out of line but: Until you have to care for a chronically ill teenager, you can never judge. Watching your child suffer is the worst torture a genuine mother can handle.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Perna

I don't think such an experience can be engineered from the outside. We are not in charge of what others feel, how they perceive, what they think, or do. I'm sure you know the story of the boy and "there must be a pony in there somewhere"? (huge pile of ****)

That is one of my all time favorite jokes. I'm such an optimist!!

In case others don't know: parents were worried about their son, who was always an optimist, no matter what. So they consulted a psychiatrist, who told them, "give him a room full of manure for his birthday, he can't possibly get something positive out of that, that will cure him of his optimism." Love. It.!!