[scorpiosis37]

I've been in therapy for 3 years, I've always had a strong relationship with my T, and I feel our work together has been very productive. I come in with topics to discuss, we talk them out, I feel heard, I leave feeling better, and my RL improves as a result. I usually feel like T "gets" me. I've always felt a healthy attachment to her. She has helped fill a little piece of that "void" that I have from never having a mom, while also allowing me to accept that the "void" will never completely go away; I will never actually have a mom. I've always had really positive feelings towards my T and the therapy process. I've never felt angry with T for any reason and we've have never had a rupture.

So why have been starting to feel differently the last few weeks?

My last 2 or 3 sessions have felt boring, repetitive, frustrating, and disconnected. I keep bringing up the same RL issue, and we aren't getting anywhere with it. For the last 3 weeks, I've asked T "What can I do differently? How can I change how I feel or think about this issue? How can I work on being happy/upbeat despite this issue? How can I work on myself so this issue no longer bothers me?" She keeps saying "You're doing all the right things. I don't having anything to suggest." She basically kills the conversation and has nothing to offer. She seems sick of talking about this, but this is my #1 issue. I'm frustrated because I feel like she can't help me.

She also seems to me totally misreading me and my feelings. She keeps trying to push how she THINKS I feel, even though I'm telling her directly (but politely) that she is off-base . She keeps saying "Working on your own schedule, and not having to go onto campus this summer must make you feel isolated. It can be difficult not to have a routine." I keep telling her "No, it doesn't make me feel isolated. I really LIKE having the luxury of seeing the co-workers/friends I WANT to see, and meeting them for lunch at outdoor cafes instead of being cooped up at work. I also really like NOT having to see those co-workers I don't care to see." I must have said this 3 times to her at my last session, and she just wasn't hearing it. She keeps translating "I'm single" into "you must feel isolated" when that simply isn't the case. I can't seem to get through to her on this point, and it really has me frustrated.

I think the problem is that I met her (and began therapy) because I had just broken up with my partner of 6 years after moving across the country for work. At that time, I WAS feeling isolated because I had left my partner and had not yet made friends in my new city (I had JUST moved there). However, after awhile, I settled into my new city, made friends, and have had other romantic relationships. Yes, I'm single, but I have lot of friends and family. My initial isolation was situational; it's not part of my identity or a regular state of being for me. She doesn't seem to get that. It feels like she's pushing this identity on me that just doesn't fit and her focus on this is taking away from the things I ACTUALLY want to work on in therapy.

I'm also having an issue with T's over-disclosure. Initially, it was important for me to get a sense for who my T was so that I would feel comfortable opening up to her. Initially, I asked her some personal questions and told her I preferred the kind of therapy relationship where she was a real person and not a blank state. And, for the most part, that is still true. However, ever since she told me that she left her spouse for a long-time friend and fellow T (she had an affair/cheated), I've lost some respect for her. I don't have a problem with divorce, nor do I have a problem with my T changing partners. But I do have a personal, moral objection to cheating. I also think it shows poor judgment to have an affair and then immediately move out of the spouse's house and into the new partner's house (with the children)-- and incorporate her business with that of her new partner. All before the divorce is even processed. It just seems a little naive and impulsive-- which are the words SHE used when I told her that a friend of mine had just done something similar. She said "after only 9 months? you can't know anyone well enough after 9 months of dating to make those kinds of life decisions. it sounds like your friend is riding the oxytocin and not thinking logically." So is that the advice she would give herself? I don't think her life is my business-- and, quite frankly, I don't care what she does in her personal life. However, knowing this about her personal life makes me question her judgment as a therapist. It makes me think: "If T's relationships are a bit of a mess, why should I listen to anything she says about my relationships?"

I've also talked to T quite a bit about how I have a disillusioned view of relationships, given the examples that were set by my own parents, my friends, and other family members. The majority of my friends are cheating on one another, lying about it, and asking me to "keep their secret." It bothers me quite a bit to think of T as being "just like" those friends. I know that T is human and humans make mistakes-- but there is a part of me that wants to believe that T is "older and wiser" (40s) than my peers (20s) and that T holds my moral values, which I DO adhere to in my own life. I guess I want to believe that T lives up to the standards I chose to live by, and it bothers me to find out that she does not.

I know that the advice I'm likely to receive is "talk to your T about this!" I feel comfortable telling T that she is misreading me and I do not feel isolated (i.e. telling her this AGAIN), but I do not feel comfortable telling her that I am uncomfortable knowing about her divorce/cheating. She has already told me that some of her friends have chastised her for her behavior, and that she thinks "they just don't understand." She even rolled her eyes when mentioning the things her friends have said. I don't think there is any way for her to HEAR how knowing this has affected me. If I thought she could really hear it, I would tell her. But since I don't think she can hear it, I don't want to make the relationship worse by bringing it up and making her angry.

My T is usually really good, but when it comes to self-criticism-- well, she sucks. I once told her that some advice she gave me didn't really pan out. I was in no way blaming her; I just said "hey, I did what you suggested and it didn't work out." She immediately became defensive and was like "oh, so you're blaming me for this? that's okay. I can take it." I said "no, I am not blaming you for anything. I decided to take the advice you offered. It was my choice. I believe I'm responsible for my decisions and my actions." She was like: "It's okay, you can blame me if you want." This whole exchange really shocked me because she had never acted like that before. It was really defensive and hostile, and it was not at all related to anything I said or did. It was totally about her.

I want to bring up my relationship with her in my session tomorrow, but I want to do it in a constructive way that avoids saying it's related to what she disclosed to me. After all, the real problem is that I do not feel connected to her or heard by her right now. I feel like I've "lost" something in therapy. I also want her to give me more suggestions/feedback (which I've asked for and not received). I want strategies to use or tangible means to make improvements in my life. Just talking about the same things over and over is not helping me. But I don't know what to do differently. I also don't want to change Ts. I've put 3 years into working with my T, and I want to stick it out. I just want to improve things.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[Mapleton]

Did you think to put a (trigger warning: wall of text) for the ADD among us?
===
Okay.. so first, the answer about issues with therapy are always basically going to boil down to one of (terminate your T, or discuss it with your T, or avoid discussing it with your T.)

Since you said you've had a good relationship with your T prior to this, you might want to preface your talking about this issue by saying that. Saying that you value the therapeutic relationship that has been built.

You described a concern about how an issue is being approached, and that there is a repetition and lack of flexibility that's being displayed here by the T. You want to make sure you raise that as the issue. Don't get bogged down in the issue, otherwise you'll get into the same pattern.

Ask
(1) Can we try a different approach? Can you think of another way to look at this?
(2) If not, can you explain why you're approaching it this way? Is it something you picked up from before?

[unaluna]

Hmm. What would be out of your comfort zone?

Hey mapes, at least there were some paragraph breaks! Stick around, you ain't see nuthin yet!

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by hankster

Hmm. What would be out of your comfort zone?

Hey mapes, at least there were some paragraph breaks! Stick around, you ain't see nuthin yet!

Sorry... the writer/professor in me can't help it!

Hankster, I'm not really sure what you're asking me. Explain?

Hi scorposis,
Sorry to hear you are recently single again, things didn't work out with the gf, huh?
This is a very delicate situation for you. My own t had an affair too and I would NEVER bring it up with her because for me it would be crossing a huge boundary with her. Yes,, we have a good relationship but you just don't go there with your t. We are there to talk about our lives not theirs. It is very hard though when after you put so much into a relationship and you think you know what kind of person t is, their morals and beliefs and wham, something like an affair blows everything right out of the water and we are left feeling like we don't even know our t after all and how can we take advice from someone who doesn't even live by their own code of ethics: first do no harm.
What about her spouse?

As for t not listening and not hearing your problems. I find that some ts misinterpret just how important things are to us because they would not be important to them but I do think you have to say to your t, t please just hear me when I say HOW important this is for me right now. Especially since you don't want a new t and want to keep your t. I think if you don't tell her and are losing respect it will head for a massive rupture.

Also maybe with her current situation and with all of the changes in her life she is heading for a burn out. I really hope you can talk to her about her hearing you though. I know how isolating the gay life can be sometimes but you are not isolated now so maybe t just keeps referring to your old self and is not hearing your current self.
You both have a good solid relationship and can talk to her about anything so I hope you can talk to her about this.

I happen to agree though that an affair is the worst thing you could possible do to your spouse and to move in straight away, terrible.
I am sorry if I am a little bit emotional here but my partner had an affair after six years and moved her new partner in before I had even finished moving my stuff out and it was devastating for me, it shows no respect so I wonder about your ts counsel too. It doesn't matter what the circumstances between her and her spouse were she could have just left him and then shacked up with her new gf. I would lose a lot of respect for her and I did for me own t too when I heard but I didn't hear the whole story until recently, it doesn't change her affair but my opinion of her changed. My t is all alone now but happy.

I hope you both can work through this

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Hi scorposis,
Sorry to hear you are recently single again, things didn't work out with the gf, huh?

Yeah, I decided to end things with my gf 2 months ago. She was beautiful and fun, but she didn't have much going for her career-wise, she couldn't hold an intellectual conversation with me, and she didn't have the ability to reflect on her own emotions or actions. I struggled with the decision because there were a lot of things I liked about her and we did have fun together but, ultimately, I knew I didn't want to be with her long-term. I want to get married and have a family, and I want to do those things with someone I consider a true partner. I realized that I was, once again, trying to "take care of" my girlfriend; I was paying for everything, I was helping her with her academic work, I was caring for her daughter, I was helping her send out job applications, etc. Thanks to therapy, I know that relationships in which I "take care of/save" the other person are unhealthy; I need to date someone who is capable of taking care of herself and can meet me as a whole person.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

how can we take advice from someone who doesn't even live by their own code of ethics: first do no harm.
What about her spouse?

I happen to agree though that an affair is the worst thing you could possible do to your spouse and to move in straight away, terrible.

I hear what you're saying, and you hit the nail on the head when you said that it's difficult to take advice from someone who doesn't live by the code of ethics that they dispense in the counseling room. However, for me, the issue doesn't have anything to do with how she may have hurt her spouse. I don't know her spouse, and I don't feel any allegiance with him. I don't know anything about how he treated her; maybe he cheated as well, maybe he was verbally abusive, maybe he was controlling; maybe he was just a run of the mill jerk. The issue I have only concerns T and the standards she holds for herself. In my opinion, the person you degrade when you have an affair is yourself. You impune your own integrity. So, for me, the issue is that T is unable or unwilling to live up to the standards she sets for herself and, at least when explaining the situation to me, demonstrated no remorse or disappointment about the way she conducted herself. Of course, I recognize that I am not the person she needs to explain herself to; I'm not involved in this situation. But, as her client, I find it difficult to hold her in the same esteem that I did prior to this disclosure. If I hold myself to a higher moral standard than my T does, why am I looking to T for relationship advice? It feels a bit backwards to me.

It's part of the destructive stage as humans we need for someone to be 'useful' to us in any meaningful way. We deconstruct someone so we can use our creativity to reconstruct them. This is an internal process that at times feels as if something is 'actually' becoming destroyed.
It's a sign that the relationship does work or else we'd never reach this stage. Humans have to deconstruct then recreate.

[tinyrabbit]

There are lots of reasons why you could be feeling like this - maybe they're to do with you, or your T, or transference (feelings about other people that you transfer onto your T). Maybe they reflect unconscious resistance or barriers to the therapy process.

I'd be interested to know about your T's theoretical approach and whether you're doing skills-oriented therapy like CBT or something deeper and more long-term.

I think you have two choices here. Either you can decide that your T isn't right for you and try someone else, although you may have the same issues with some aspect of that T, too. Or you can stick around and work through the problems, even though you feel you've lost the connection. We can't have perfect therapy, only good-enough therapy - do you think you can have good-enough therapy with this T?

Personally, I think your T has over-disclosed. It's okay to tell you stuff about herself if it helps you, but she's getting too personal and bringing her own stuff into the room. I think you need to tell her that. I think it would be helpful if you could separate
- what practical things you have issues with
- what feelings you're having about them

So you can tell her: the facts are XYZ, and I feel XYZ about that. I do think it's worth sticking with her and working through this, because nobody's perfect - in real life, you'll meet people who are morally fallible, who mess up, and this is your chance to work through how you feel about that.

Personally, I don't think an affair is the worst thing you could do to your spouse. Affairs can be the problem - or a symptom. Domestic violence is the worst thing you can do to your spouse. My point is: these judgements are subjective and based on our own 'stuff'.

What if therapy, for you, is partly about accepting people's flaws and understanding that it's possible to have some kind of relationship (whether a therapeutic one or a 'real world' one) with someone who is flawed and makes mistakes? Is anyone perfect?

[quote=tinyrabbit;3120607]Personally, I don't think an affair is the worst thing you could do to your spouse. Affairs can be the problem - or a symptom. Domestic violence is the worst thing you can do to your spouse. My point is: these judgements are subjective and based on our own 'stuff'.
quote]

Well having been through the two, domestic violence and an affair I would personally take the violence. You have to have been through an affair to really get how they affect you for a long time afterwards.
I know I am getting too involved here so I will step away.

[tinyrabbit]

[quote=monalisasmile;3120617]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

Personally, I don't think an affair is the worst thing you could do to your spouse. Affairs can be the problem - or a symptom. Domestic violence is the worst thing you can do to your spouse. My point is: these judgements are subjective and based on our own 'stuff'.
quote]

Well having been through the two, domestic violence and an affair I would personally take the violence. You have to have been through an affair to really get how they affect you for a long time afterwards.
I know I am getting too involved here so I will step away.

I have been through both. I still think DV is worse. But what matters here isn't who is 'right' about what is 'worse' - I was just making the point that we all have different perspectives, as our conversation here shows. To one person, having an affair is terrible. If I knew my T had had an affair, it wouldn't actually bother me that much. It's all subjective.

[Raging Quiet]

Scorpio, I could have written this post. I am going through a rupture with my T. Would love to see how it sorts out for you. Sorry I can't offer anything helpful, but I am happy to sit with you.

[Bill3]

An underlying theme that I am hearing in your post is that you look to your t for advice. You sound frustrated to my ears when t doesn't give advice or when t's advice can be called into question.

Another view is that T is not there primarily to offer advice, but rather to help clients come up with their own paths, come up with their own advice if you will.

T's immovability on your #1 issue could mean that she feels that now it is up to you to find your way to advance on it. Perhaps she would be willing to at least brainstorm with you about it.

With regard to the affair (which imo she should not have disclosed to you), the lack of respect you feel for her judgment would certainly affect your perception of advice that she might give. But what if her role was to help you, push you, to figure out things on your own? In that event, she would not appear to be giving the advice of a hypocrite. How would that be for you?

There were a number of things you reported about t that troubled me: the detailed overdisclosure about her relationships; the inability to hear and validate your feelings; the gratuitous, judgmental comment about your friend; the defensiveness. They all concern me, but the one that most concerns me is the inability to hear and validate your feelings. How pervasive is that problem?

[rainbow8]

You've already gotten some excellent responses and suggestions, scorpio. I'm sorry it didn't work out with your gf.

I can understand your difficulties due to your T's disclosures. I too, think it would have been better for her not to talk so much about her life (yeah, that's coming from ME) but you can't change that now. We want to believe our Ts are moral, according to our own beliefs, and it's a shock when they aren't. They can still help us with issues they can't solve for themselves, though.

My T is getting divorced but she is giving me good advice about my marriage. If I knew that she cheated on her H, I would be in the same predicament as you. I would lose respect for her. It's better not to know that kind of personal information about our Ts.

It's up to you to decide if you can come to terms with what you know, and if you can concentrate on your issues or not.

As far as T not understanding you though you keep telling her, the only thing to do is to ask her why she is so persistent in what she thinks is your problem. Is there any grain of truth in what she says? After all, she has been working with you for 3 years. I don't know what else you can do except to talk it out with her some more.

I hope that you can regain your connection with your T. If not, then I believe it's meant to be that way. All YOU can do is try your best and see how your T responds.

[feralkittymom]

I wonder if part of what you're struggling with isn't a sense of disillusionment. I remember when you posted about your recent relationship, full of the glow of the "honeymoon" phase. Now that relationship is over. Your T has disclosed actions that seriously call into question your respect for and trust in her: again, disillusionment. Is this touching any similar experiences from the past?

And is it possible, with what you know of her actions, that she is projecting these feelings of isolation, etc, onto you? Could that be why you feel so invalidated and unheard?

It's certainly possible to move into a different phase in your T relationship, a less innocent but wiser phase, but I don't think that can happen without working through this issue. Your alternative is to avoid the issue and allow it to reshape your relationship and sessions in ways you may not be able to foresee or control. I'm not sure that can be a truly productive environment.

[stopdog]

Do you have an idea about how the therapist should respond to indicate that she had heard you about how you are reacting to knowing about her personal life? What I am getting at is she may "hear" you and still not respond the way you think she should.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

There are lots of reasons why you could be feeling like this - maybe they're to do with you, or your T, or transference (feelings about other people that you transfer onto your T). Maybe they reflect unconscious resistance or barriers to the therapy process.

I'd be interested to know about your T's theoretical approach and whether you're doing skills-oriented therapy like CBT or something deeper and more long-term.

I think you have two choices here. Either you can decide that your T isn't right for you and try someone else, although you may have the same issues with some aspect of that T, too. Or you can stick around and work through the problems, even though you feel you've lost the connection. We can't have perfect therapy, only good-enough therapy - do you think you can have good-enough therapy with this T?

Personally, I think your T has over-disclosed. It's okay to tell you stuff about herself if it helps you, but she's getting too personal and bringing her own stuff into the room. I think you need to tell her that. I think it would be helpful if you could separate
- what practical things you have issues with
- what feelings you're having about them

So you can tell her: the facts are XYZ, and I feel XYZ about that. I do think it's worth sticking with her and working through this, because nobody's perfect - in real life, you'll meet people who are morally fallible, who mess up, and this is your chance to work through how you feel about that.

Personally, I don't think an affair is the worst thing you could do to your spouse. Affairs can be the problem - or a symptom. Domestic violence is the worst thing you can do to your spouse. My point is: these judgements are subjective and based on our own 'stuff'.

What if therapy, for you, is partly about accepting people's flaws and understanding that it's possible to have some kind of relationship (whether a therapeutic one or a 'real world' one) with someone who is flawed and makes mistakes? Is anyone perfect?

My T is not skills-based. I've asked her (more than once) what school of psychotherapy she ascribes to, and her answer is that she doesn't use any one particular model. She basically just does regular 'ole talk therapy. She is comfortable addressing the therapeutic relationship when I bring it up. I would say that it is deeper and more long-term therapy, but right now it feels somewhat superficial.

I don't feel as though I have a barrier to the therapeutic process. I really wish that my T would actually "go deeper." I feel like she focuses too much on asking me about my week, and not enough on pushing at what might underlie what I'm discussing with her. I've actually told her this before-- told her that I want her to "push" me-- but she hasn't done it.

I don't believe in perfection, and I'm not expecting a perfect T or people in my RL to be perfect. There are plenty of other things my T has disclosed that show she is not "perfect," but the affair is the only one that bothers me. I've never cheated or been cheated on; there were no affairs in my family growing up. I don't think my reaction is related to any personal experience from my past-- it's just a moral thing I feel strongly about. I have several friends who have had (and are having) affairs; my sister also once had an affair in a previous relationship. I don't like it, but it's certainly not a friendship ender. And my sister and I are extremely close, and she is now in a great relationship in which she is faithful. I find it much easier to accept this behavior from my friends and my sister, than from my T. It's only human to have flaws and make mistakes; my friends and sister are also young (20s) and are just figuring out how to be adults with careers and relationships, and navigate their way through life. I suppose there is a part of me that wants T to be "older and wiser" and to offer more perspective than my friends-- that's why I choose to see a T. I see T and myself as equals but, at the same time, I expect that T can offer some perspective I might not get alone, or by talking with my peers. But I don't think this is an inability to accept flaws, especially in my RL, because I don't have difficulty accepting my friends' flaws. I tend to be the confidante of my circle of friends precisely because, as my best friend says, "I know you'll accept me no matter what." I think this issue is really about T.

Oh, but I agree that DV is worse; I've experienced DV and not an affair so, perhaps I'm biased, but I definitely think DV is worse.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Do you have an idea about how the therapist should respond to indicate that she had heard you about how you are reacting to knowing about her personal life? What I am getting at is she may "hear" you and still not respond the way you think she should.

I don't think there is a "should." I've never told her that I'm having a reaction to her personal life, so she hasn't had an opportunity to hear or respond to that.

I definitely think she is not hearing me when I tell her "I'm not isolated" because she keeps trying to tell me that I must be feeling isolated. This makes no sense to me as I just spent the weekend on vacation in New York with my college friends, and I have another vacation planned with my high school friends next month, and I told her that I'm really happy about how my best friend from home just moved to my city in order to be closer to me. Why would I be feeling isolated? It makes NO sense. As FeralKittyMom pointed out, perhaps she is projecting something onto me? She did mention that she lost friends because of her divorce, so maybe she is feeling isolated and projecting it onto me?

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Bill3

An underlying theme that I am hearing in your post is that you look to your t for advice. You sound frustrated to my ears when t doesn't give advice or when t's advice can be called into question.

Another view is that T is not there primarily to offer advice, but rather to help clients come up with their own paths, come up with their own advice if you will.

T's immovability on your #1 issue could mean that she feels that now it is up to you to find your way to advance on it. Perhaps she would be willing to at least brainstorm with you about it.

With regard to the affair (which imo she should not have disclosed to you), the lack of respect you feel for her judgment would certainly affect your perception of advice that she might give. But what if her role was to help you, push you, to figure out things on your own? In that event, she would not appear to be giving the advice of a hypocrite. How would that be for you?

There were a number of things you reported about t that troubled me: the detailed overdisclosure about her relationships; the inability to hear and validate your feelings; the gratuitous, judgmental comment about your friend; the defensiveness. They all concern me, but the one that most concerns me is the inability to hear and validate your feelings. How pervasive is that problem?

I can understand from my OP why it might sound like I go to my T primarily for advice, but that isn't the case overall. I did ask T for advice on this specific issue, but it's one of only a handful of times I've asked for advice in the past 3 years. And I only asked for advice AFTER trying to handle it on my own in several different ways, and am still coming up empty. I'm extremely independent and usually hate it when people give me advice-- I usually prefer to come up with my own solutions. However, this time, since I can't find a solution that works, I am trying to get my T to brainstorm solutions with me-- but she hasn't done it. It's not because she wants me to do it myself; she told me it's because she doesn't have any ideas or solutions to offer me. She told me that I've already thought of and done everything she might suggest, so she has nothing to add.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

And is it possible, with what you know of her actions, that she is projecting these feelings of isolation, etc, onto you? Could that be why you feel so invalidated and unheard?

Yes, I think this is a possibility. It does seem to me that she is distracted and behaving differently. She seems to have a bit of a chip on her shoulder and she seems to get defensive, where she never did before. I noticed some of these changes before she disclosed to me about her divorce, but now I have (at least what I think is) a context for these changes. She seems a little less patient, a little less present, and a little less in-tune with me. The instance I mentioned about her becoming defensive in another context was also AFTER the affair/divorce preceedings began (but before I knew about it). It seems like she is the one who has changed, but she is trying to project any change onto me. Then, I'm becoming frustrated because I'm like "where is my engaged T who always hears what I have to say?"

Yes, I do think I feel a sense of disillusionment about my T. I do feel that, to a certain extent, she is not who she presented herself to be when we previously had discussions about our core values. I don't think though that the same thing happened with my gf. Yes, I was in the honeymoon phase about 6 months ago. Then, I got to know her better, and I was no longer satisfied with the relationship. But I don't think I experienced disillusionment; I just realized that we didn't fit together as well as I had hoped. I didn't feel disillusioned or misled though; I just slowly got to know her over time, and realized that she wasn't the right person for me. It wasn't a negative experience though; we had a great relationship for a period of time, and I'm happy that it happened. It was fun and it taught me a lot about what I am (and am not) looking for in a girlfriend/wife.

[CantExplain]

I had a rupture with Madame T over lost connection in 2010.
The way we fixed it was to see another T together - sort of marriage counselling.
But I think maybe I just needed a break. I do therapy pretty intensively and I'm starting to think that I wear myself out.