A Moral Judgment

Yikes. I'm wondering why you need to know this information. I totally understand your concern and care, but I wonder why it's important for you to know whther Michelle is making the right decision, since it's her decision.

Sometimes I don't know if I made the right decision - all I know is, after thinking about it, it is the decision that seems like the right decision, and that is the best I can do. Sometimes feeling pressed about a decision makes me defend it longer and harder.

It's possible Michelle does not see things clearly. It's also possible she sees things very clearly, and for her own reason, doesn't want to give more specifics. I feel like she has more information wtih which to make that decision. I think it's her journey to make those decisions. I would find the pressure difficult to deal with.

Perhaps I have jumped in too early and am expressing my fears about posting.

I'm asking these questions because I think it would be remiss of posters on this site to either assume she is mistaken or assume she is correct as the advice could potentially send her down a destructive path. I don't need to know any of that info. It's not my life or my T. But I'm concerned about whether she has these things clear.

This isn't just any old dilemma. It's a question about whether her T has committed a massive ethics violation and what to do about it. I don't see how anyone can advise responsibly without knowing that she's got reason to believe this. I feel it would be extremely wrong to encourage her to end her T relationship or complain when it is so unclear what the situation is. This seems so unlikely. It might be true, but I don't know if she really knows that.

I'm trying to enquire as to whether she has thought this through. I don't need to know. But concern isn't really about what you need to know, is it? I find it sad that you see pressure rather than just concern - but that is of course subjective.

I can hear your care and concern much better. I'm not sure I agree on the responsibilities of posters. My experience I would guess is different from yours as to what kind of support is helpful. But people can have different ways to trying to achieve similar things. I heard you wanted her to explain to your satisfaction, but I hear that isn't really what you wanted.

Hmm. again, I can see how we respond differently. I didn't hear her asking for advice. Maybe I missed that.


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I read this post and I hear your concern, very much. Perhaps I am sensitive to pressure.

I think that, if someone comes to this forum while in a vulnerable state, sounds off about their T and asks other posters what they think, they could be affected by the responses they get - I know I've had moments where I've wanted to quit, and been encouraged by posters telling me to go and work it out with my T. If they'd all said to quit, maybe I would have.

Responsibility is perhaps the wrong word, as we only know what people choose to share and at the end of the day we're all in charge of our own decisions. But I think there's a need to be aware of the potential effects of any advice given. And I personally have a gut feeling that it's worth encouraging Michelle to consider what she knows, and what she simply thinks she knows. I'll sleep better as a result than if I just said: that's awful, report him.

She posted on a forum, wanting input. Sometimes it's worth asking difficult questions in case it helps someone. And if it doesn't, well, so be it.

again, we heard her differently. I didn't hear her ask about what she shouild do.

Yea. I agree. I don't think I'd tell someone whether to quit or not.

I thnk we keep coming back to the request. I didn't hear her ask for advice. I don't really have a problem with encouraging a poster to consider what she knows and what she thinks. I heard you differently. Maybe I'm just sensitive. or perhaps we have styles that don't easily mesh.

I agree again - I don't think I'd feel comfortable suggesting someone report another professional. Someone once told me to do that, unsolicited, for something that really was, and is, an ethical violation. I was uncomfortable with being told what to do by someone who didn't know me and what it would take for me to report someone. It's way to hard a decision to boil down to a few facts

I think we heard a different request for what kind of input was wanted.


Again, I agree with you. Sometimes it is worth it to ask difficult questions. I guess I would be concerned if it didn't go well -which is different than judging any decision made, and it being different from mine, if I had an opinion.

My original OP asked "how hard is it for a T to admit to a mistake?"

TR you asked me to clarify what the mistake was. I had no intention of putting it out there originally. If you choose not to believe my T made a mistake, that is your prerogative. I wondered if other T's have made mistakes with clients and had the guts to apologize. It would also be interesting to hear if the clients forgave the T and if they reconciled. Maybe it would be too personal for others to post, IDK. One need not specify the exact nature of the error made if they don't want to. It can be generalized like he didn't acknowledge my phone call or something to that effect. Who knows what kind of mistakes can be made? We all make them to some extent don't we? That's what I was interested in hearing.

TR you said:

However, it sounds to me like you are retracting that statement are you? You want me to "prove" a case? I'm not on trial here, nor is my T. He may be a great man for all anyone here knows. Maybe he made only one mistake with a client & it was with me. Or maybe I'm wrong. I didn't ask anyone if my T was guilty. I have my opinion and you obviously have yours. If no one wants to share on this thread, that's fine. It will die off like so many others.

Thank you TR for your concern. Again, I won't be giving details as there is no trial here.

Thank you Syra for your support.

My T has made errors, and has apologized. He is really good about owning his own stuff and offering me some explanation about what drove his behavior, without trying to excuse himself or negate what happened or my feelings about it. That said, he has done things I consider errors and he did not, and we discussed those as well.

For what it's worth, I will say that I once represented a client who claimed that her doctor had violated confidentiality and given her employer information about her. I filed the lawsuit and found out in the course of discovery that my client had signed a release to allow the doctor to talk to the employer. She did not remember signing the release (because she was in the throes of mental illness when she signed it), and she did not like that he gave the employer as much information as he did, but she had in fact signed a release.

My T has made errors. He has owned most of them. Usually doesn't apologize, but has on occasion. I'm good enough with his owning what he did. I think there is something different about the hurt ahd harm on the issues he apologized for, and those he just owned. A couple of times he owned it but in a way that said he didn't think he was triggered by anything, that what he did was okay. What I like about him is regardless, I can talk with him about it. He'll listen to my feelings. He'll negotiate what should be different. I feel no judgment or blaming me for being wrong or arrogant or anything, like I did with exT.

My prior T never apologized, not really. One time she told me "I didn't make a mistake." She didn't just tell me, she slapped her hands on her thighs and asserted in a mildly aggressive manner I didn't make a mistake. I thought the fact that I was hurt, she couldn't feel compassion for me, and we weren't working things out kind very well of suggested a mistake had been made, even if there was no maliciousness, or maybe even no culpability. For the final, mega issue, she eventually blamed it on external issues, like neither of us had any any contribution to it, it was outside forces. I thought it was lame. I told her I didn't feel heard or seen. She never responded to that.

I still haven't decided whether to pursue something.

In rabbit's defense, may i say she was caught in the same trap i was? some who are overly conscientious may read many threads by the same person and then we fall into the trap and ask or answer the unwritten question, only to get our head bitten off for our trouble.

I think what makes these threads so tempting (it's not just one person doing it) is that it triggers our own "thing". Usually triggers are thought to be sex or violence, but if your cptsd was neglect, then "jumping in", being overly responsible, might be triggered by withholding. In this case, we're saying oh I didnt ask that.

At my last job, I got yelled at for fixing an error in a computer program, because the boss didnt ask me to fix it, because they didnt know about it! I found it while fixing a different error. but I couldnt fix my assigned error without fixing the "unknown" error because I ccouldn't get a valid run of the program. Major Midwestern university.

So is that how we're supposed to act here? Could we at least say, not in the psychotherapy forum? You don't INTENTIONALLY blow smoke up posters skirts safe zone? I dont like getting set up and yelled at. So was it my fault? Did I get triggered or was I set up?

The one I see does not apologize for anything. The second one I see does apologize and the interaction with her is much smoother. I really don't think some therapists think they make mistakes and are trained to always blame the client (resistance, transference etc) rather than the fact that sometimes it really is them.
Also I do agree that there is no need to spell out evidence/justify oneself here, even if someone else asks. I did not see the OP as setting anyone up. I don't think that there is a trap set for an "unwritten question" for others to ask. But that is me.

Don't know where you're anger is coming from here Hangster. There was no "set up", no smoke, nothing "intentional" and there was no yelling in my response to TR. I felt like I was being pushed for information that I did not want to give. This is only the 3rd thread I have ever started and I think it was fine without getting all into details of my issue. I have no idea how I offended anyone but it sounds like you were offended Hangster. In which case, I would apologize as no "set up" was initiated here.

I appreciate all the posts in response to my original OP. It is a delicate topic perhaps but I think we can all discuss and maybe even agree that when someone makes a mistake and hurts someone else, an apology is in order whether the person is unemployed, a doctor or even a lawyer. There is no line drawn to having morals or not. It's not a status thing. I think we are all bound by the same standards of right and wrong. That's just my opinion. Some may think differently.

Thanks folks.

Michelle, as you say this is only your 3rd thread so you may not yet realise how it can feel if you post something critical about your T and people agree with you. It's great to be vindicated, but it can also bring up all sorts of other emotions. I recently posted about a stupid mistake my T made, and people agreed with me - he was stupid, thoughtless, etc. And I appreciated it, but it also made me feel like crap, because I wondered why I was such a useless, worthless client (as, like many people on PC, I see other people's actions as a reflection of my worth, even though intellectually I know they're not) and worried I was putting my trust in the wrong person. I felt ashamed and alone. I would never have been able to predict that.

I think you've missed the point of Hankster's post, which was: sometimes you might ask one question and get answers to different ones, which haven't been asked, but have suggested themselves. So should we only ever answer exactly what the OP asked, or is it okay to say other things, too? I for one am not trying to make you feel like you're on trial, but I think the mistake in question is such a huge one that I'm worried about you. I'm worried that you're either seeing a T who makes huge ethics violations, or that you've lost trust in your T because of something that hasn't happened.

Ultimately, this doesn't affect me. It's your life, not mine. It's no skin off my nose. But it makes me sad to see you so upset and I just feel like someone should suggest you stop and ask these questions. I say this as someone who's been wrong about her T in the past. Ah, you may say, that's your stuff. Well, yes. But it's not just my stuff, is it? It can happen to anyone. I find it staggering to believe that a T would make a mistake like this - by which I mean it's very, very shocking. And if it is indeed the case, you should be making a complaint. But I wanted to ask if you're sure. If you're annoyed by that, if you don't like what I posted, well, so be it. I still think I was right to ask. It felt like the right thing to do, so I followed my instincts. I'd want to be asked the same questions in your shoes.

In response to your original post, my T does admit to mistakes when he agrees he's made them. We had a big blow-up recently over a stupid suggestion he made, and things then went very off-kilter. Last session, he said he hasn't been careful enough with me, and that he got lost in his own self-importance. But he's never done anything I would report him for.

Anyway, I wasn't responding to your OP. I was responding to this post.

This post suggests it's important to establish how Michelle has been treated. To return to the point above, many of us (and this may or may not be the case for Michelle) have shattered, enmeshed or confused boundaries, selves or emotions. To tell someone they've been treated in XYZ way can be like telling them they are XYZ. I'm sorry if I sound like I don't believe you, Michelle, it's not that. It's just that it's such a huge mistake to make - like you said, it's unconscionable for him to do this and not even admit it, so I wanted to check you're sure.

It's alright to ask TR, it's o.k. to pose the question, it's also fine with me if a post leads to other issues or if someone else needs a matter explained to them in my thread. I just choose not to answer because I need to consider how disclosure could affect my case. My reasons for my belief are also of a personal nature. I am sure of my position. That is why it hurts me so much. I would not file a report haphazardly. I have given this grave consideration. The stress and humiliation brought on by my T has also caused physical manifestations for which I need medical treatment. I continue to struggle with my predicament. The arrogance my T has displayed over this mess has also hurt me. My last visit he changed his tune a bit but still no signs of regret. I have not been able to resolve things with my T. There is no case to win here as I have already lost. It would be more helpful to me if T were honest rather than hide everything. I have already spent over $1,500 on lawyers. How much more money, stress and problems will I have before I get resolution? I don't know.

I don't know about you, but I don't feel enmeshed with this T, but I do feel that he has enlisted people I care about, and I trust them wholeheartedly with the big picture, I am struggling with the minute details of certain things with them. I know I trust him, I have a good sense of knowing when to trust people. In remembering how I felt during the T vacation where my xT treated me horrifically, I think the same kind of thing was going on then as it is now. I was too reactive to him to do this kind of therapy, whatever this kind of therapy is. Just a thought, not the truth. I believe because I want to believe. I need to find that part of me.

Therapists make huge mistakes all the time. Not every therapist perhaps, but a good number of them. Being a therapist does not mean one has a higher moral code than anyone else. It means they have gotten a license in a highly subjective, non-scientific endeavor and sometimes, often by accident (it has been shown that what a therapist reports they believe a client found important is often not what the client reports), they are not completely unuseful to a client. I think there is an unwarranted tendency to give therapists far more benefit of the doubt and to blame the client instead. Not just here, but on other forums too. I have found the therapist to be as I describe her, I have not found I am wrong in my observation of the woman.

I've given my T so many chances to redeem himself. He insists on blaming ME for what HE'S done. It is unbelievable that he is capable of such cruelty. I asked him if that is what they teach in psychotherapy? Do they teach you to lie whatever the consequences to the client? The way he treated me tonight was appalling. He is so sure of himself that he was laughing at my predicament. He said I'll "get over it" among other things. He said this all while I'm there bawling my eyes out. He made light of my situation as if that makes his behavior o.k. I never met someone more arrogant except the other conspirator in this whole charade. You will both have to answer to a higher power. Do you think you will be able to double talk God too? Good luck with that. I will NEVER forget what you've done to me.

I'm really sorry, Michelle, that you're enduring this. It must be so incredibly painful.

My T has said and done some hurtful things in the past as well, and it took a lot of work to get him to even own his part. Initially, he would get defensive and protective, deflecting blame on me. Then, when we were both more calm, he would tell me what drove him to do what he did, taking "some" ownership but most times trying to get me to see why it was in my best interest or was part of a strategy that just "didn't work for me". He has admitted that maybe his stubbornness and ego has gotten in the way. I never hear an apology, though. My T has always told me that by apologizing, you are starting in a "one down" position. I, honestly, believe that an apology can go a long, long way depending on the circumstance.

Why are you still seeing this person? I don't understand how it helps you or serves you to keep paying him money or meet with him.

As I heard her, she was trying to resolve things with him. Maybe it was a good idea, maybe it wasn't. Hard for us to know. I see it as honorable thing she tried to do, to work things out and avoid going through the sytem.

This is one of the reasons why I'm so confused. Surely if a T commits a massive ethics violation like this it's time to stop seeing him?

Does he realize you are bringing charges against him (at least that is my understanding since you said you can't talk about details because of the upcoming trial or lawyers are involved or something; I'm confused)? I don't understand why he would consent to continue to see you at all under those circumstances nor why you would see him. I'm confused.

And honestly, if anything hurts your "case," it is continuing to see him. As an attorney, I would totally rip someone to shreds with the fact that the person continued to see the T after such a large alleged violation. How many more sessions did you have with him? How much did you pay him? So you continued to see him for X times and paid him X amount of dollars when you claim he did Y?

Not saying that to be mean, but just to point out that you damage your credibility and your case to people who have not been through therapy by continuing to see him. Not to mention the harm you do to your own psyche.

Hi Michelle25.

I am a client who has experienced multiple experiences as you described above.

My response to each situation has been different, in part, because I am learning more about myself with each experience, but also, importantly, I am learning more about my T's and their own limitations.

One of those experiences created a significant amount of harm. I had a breakdown. It took me almost five years before I was able to place responsibility where it belonged.

Another one involved a T lying to me and me finding out about his deception over a year after the original event. My current T knew it was a lie when it happened (lying T was my MT) and never told me. A year later, when I discovered it was a lie and my current T had known the entire time, we ruptured. It took some time to work through it.

I did want to confront lying T. My current T encouraged me to really consider each scenario before I confronted. He said he worried about my well being if I didn't get the response from MT that I had hoped. Right or wrong, I agreed with his assessment.

I took action, just not the legal kind. I chose not to see him again.

In reference to your original question, I have often wondered something similar. I don't have the answers but, I do hope you are able to work through your experience in a way that improves your overall well being!

That sounds so logical. I know I had dozens of red flags with my exT. I also had some wonderful help. I was also dependnet. Walking away, even when there is hurt, isn't all that easy. Even with ethics violation.

I don't see anything wrong about trying to work someone out with the client. I believe you that you would rip someone to shreds for continuing to see the person. I suspect Michelle is working more from an attempt to take care of her emotional needs, and hope for healing, than from strategy for her legal case.

I imagine it makes a difference wht she went back to the T for, and what was talked about. I didn't hear she went back to work on some old injury. I heard she went back to try and work out this issue. If we're talking courtroom, I think a client that tries to work it out before running to court is a lot better than one who flees the ex and files a lawsuit.

I think we just don't know enough. Michelle wants to keep some things private. I think that's fine. It's her journey. I don't thnk she was asking for advice or opinions on whether she should continue to see him. I think she was hurting, a lot.