[rainbow8]

I don't think what my T said to me at the end of my session was therapeutic or appropriate. When I got up to leave, I said something like "I don't know what to do". She said with a smile and almost a laugh: "Thank you for a wonderful time", or maybe it was "I had a wonderful time with you today." I don't remember the exact words, but the way she said it made me say "are you being sarcastic?" She said "you're whining and I have to tell you... (maybe she said I don't like whining)." Then we hugged and I left. She's never made a comment about the session like that so it was obviously not true.

It really annoys me that she would say that. It was like teasing but once before she told me I was whiny and she didn't like it. At that session, I rephrased what I had said and she said that was better. Today it was at the end so I didn't get to say anything. I own that I did say it in a whiny voice but does she have the right to call me on it and make me feel bad?
I think she may have been trying to tease me out of that mood, but I'm not sure. Plus, I felt stuck and had no time to say it in a better way since the session was over. Do you think T was out-of-line or not?

Hard to say as we really don't know the context, weren't there. Heck Rainbow, you aren't even sure what she said. I don't see that what she said "was obviously not true". Sounds a bit black and white. Your T does have the right to call you on things unless you just want her to be a yes-man, (and I realize for some people that is apparently what they want from their therapist), and she can't "make" you feel bad. You have taken the option to feel bad about what was said even though you are not certain what was said. You are really angry that she wasn't your fantasy T today and got real with you instead of indulging you in talking about your feelings about her once again. This really isn't about what was said or not said at the end of your session.

[feralkittymom]

No.

She's never made a comment about the session like that so it was obviously not true.

Why would her not having said it before necessarily make it not true?

[likelife]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I don't think what my T said to me at the end of my session was therapeutic or appropriate. When I got up to leave, I said something like "I don't know what to do". She said with a smile and almost a laugh: "Thank you for a wonderful time", or maybe it was "I had a wonderful time with you today." I don't remember the exact words, but the way she said it made me say "are you being sarcastic?" She said "you're whining and I have to tell you... (maybe she said I don't like whining)." Then we hugged and I left. She's never made a comment about the session like that so it was obviously not true.

It really annoys me that she would say that. It was like teasing but once before she told me I was whiny and she didn't like it. At that session, I rephrased what I had said and she said that was better. Today it was at the end so I didn't get to say anything. I own that I did say it in a whiny voice but does she have the right to call me on it and make me feel bad?
I think she may have been trying to tease me out of that mood, but I'm not sure. Plus, I felt stuck and had no time to say it in a better way since the session was over. Do you think T was out-of-line or not?

Hi rainbow. I'm guessing you're feeling kind of overwhelmed with emotions about your session. It sounds like you're maybe looking for some reassurance as well? If that's the case, can you slow yourself down a bit to figure out what the need is that's driving you to focus on your T's words?

Is there a different way you would have preferred your T to respond? What were you needing when you said you didn't know what to do?

[ImperfectMe]

I don't understand how a therapist thinks it's okay to tell a client that they are whiny. Even if you were. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't therapy supposed to be a safe place to do that without reprimand if we need to? I'm sorry that happened. I don't think it was a very professional thing for her to say. It showed a lack of compassion in my opinion.

[ImperfectMe]

Could you just imagine if a therapist had a sign in their office that said "No whining aloud". They'd go out of business.

[likelife]

Originally Posted by ImperfectMe

I don't understand how a therapist thinks it's okay to tell a client that they are whiny. Even if you were. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't therapy supposed to be a safe place to do that without reprimand if we need to? I'm sorry that happened. I don't think it was a very professional thing for her to say. It showed a lack of compassion in my opinion.

I think it depends on the context in which the feedback is offered. And the intention behind it. If the T is just scolding, that's certainly not helpful. But if it's meant as feedback regarding how others might perceive/ experience the client, then it seems appropriate.

[unaluna]

Your statement, "I don't know what to do", might be a better session opener than a session closing statement, but your t has tried so many different things with you, idk.

I get overly attached to my ts too, but it's more like a side effect of the treatment. It's not what I'm in treatment for. I'm trying to get out of my own way in becoming "more me". So when I apply that to you, I'm still unclear on why you're in therapy. You don't have to say it here, but that might help you answer your question, your feeling of not knowing what to do?

Aside from that, it has been my experience that yes, once they stand up, ts sometimes become kinda like used car salesmen, personality-wise. It's not pretty! But it happens.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

Hard to say as we really don't know the context, weren't there. Heck Rainbow, you aren't even sure what she said. I don't see that what she said "was obviously not true". Sounds a bit black and white. Your T does have the right to call you on things unless you just want her to be a yes-man, (and I realize for some people that is apparently what they want from their therapist), and she can't "make" you feel bad. You have taken the option to feel bad about what was said even though you are not certain what was said. You are really angry that she wasn't your fantasy T today and got real with you instead of indulging you in talking about your feelings about her once again. This really isn't about what was said or not said at the end of your session.

Thanks, Chris. I meant that she has never made any comment about enjoying the session or not. That's SO unlike her. I think whining pushes her buttons. Maybe her kids were whiny. I could tell that she was being "something", I can't put my finger on it. Not exactly sarcastic, but joking--though she wasn't joking about my being whiny. You're right that she wasn't my fantasy T today. She hasn't indulged me in talking about my feelings for her lately at all, though. I wouldn't say I'm angry; I'm more depressed and despondent about the session. I do think it's rude that she commented on my being whiny.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

No.

She's never made a comment about the session like that so it was obviously not true.

Why would her not having said it before necessarily make it not true?

Thanks, feralkittymom. I meant that it is SO, SO unlike to tell me how she feels about a session. I know it wasn't a wonderful session, and so did she. She was obviously being sarcastic or trying to be funny.

Originally Posted by likelife

Hi rainbow. I'm guessing you're feeling kind of overwhelmed with emotions about your session. It sounds like you're maybe looking for some reassurance as well? If that's the case, can you slow yourself down a bit to figure out what the need is that's driving you to focus on your T's words?

Is there a different way you would have preferred your T to respond? What were you needing when you said you didn't know what to do?

Thanks, likelife. I needed more time in the session to tell her that, although I understand it all intellectually, my emotions aren't letting me do what I need to do. I wanted to say that I don't know how to get myself out of this loop even though she thinks I do. I wanted to say that I needed help to do it, not being told I'm whiny, though I didn't whine until I got up to leave. If you call it whining at all. She did say she knows it's hard for me, earlier in the session. I would like liked her to say something positive like she usually does, instead of a sarcastic remark about her feelings. She did ask earlier if I was continuing with DBT and I said "yes". I know she thinks it's good for me.

Her words hurt me. She's not usually sarcastic like that, and it didn't help for her to say I'm whiny. It bothers me.

Originally Posted by ImperfectMe

I don't understand how a therapist thinks it's okay to tell a client that they are whiny. Even if you were. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't therapy supposed to be a safe place to do that without reprimand if we need to? I'm sorry that happened. I don't think it was a very professional thing for her to say. It showed a lack of compassion in my opinion.

Thank you for your response, ImperfectMe. That's what I think, though I know she's trying to be helpful. She's usually very compassionate and professional, but this is the second time she's commenting on my whining. I don't do it often that I'm aware of.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by hankster

Your statement, "I don't know what to do", might be a better session opener than a session closing statement, but your t has tried so many different things with you, idk.

I get overly attached to my ts too, but it's more like a side effect of the treatment. It's not what I'm in treatment for. I'm trying to get out of my own way in becoming "more me". So when I apply that to you, I'm still unclear on why you're in therapy. You don't have to say it here, but that might help you answer your question, your feeling of not knowing what to do?

Aside from that, it has been my experience that yes, once they stand up, ts sometimes become kinda like used car salesmen, personality-wise. It's not pretty! But it happens.

Good points, hankster. NOW I'm in treatment because I have a problem with my attachment to Ts, due to attachment difficulties in my life with others. Other issues are weight, self-esteem, unfulfilled marriage, shame. They are all related to not having a good sense of Self. Maybe a better answer is "to become happier with myself" which is perhaps what you mean by "becoming more you"?

[Wren_]

Rain ... she may have been hurt by your reaction to her comment about it being a wonderful session perhaps? hard knowing when we don't know exactly what was said and can't hear the tone of voice she was using at the time. Are you going to be able to get through this week without talking about it with her? or do you need to schedule another session to work through it more immediately

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by tigergirl

Rain ... she may have been hurt by your reaction to her comment about it being a wonderful session perhaps? hard knowing when we don't know exactly what was said and can't hear the tone of voice she was using at the time. Are you going to be able to get through this week without talking about it with her? or do you need to schedule another session to work through it more immediately

Thanks, tigergirl. I KNOW she didn't think it was a wonderful session. Her tone of voice and laugh told me that. She said it in kind of a teasing manner. She said it first, before I said "I don't know what to do". At least I think she did. I wish I had a better recall of my T's words but I don't.

I don't need another session to work it through more. I need to forget about it and think about how she's trying to help me instead. I think whining pushes her buttons and I have to accept that she's human. If I had more time, I could have expressed myself differently like I did that other time she commented on my sounding whiny.

[SkinnySoul]

YOUR therapy isn't about what your T likes.

Even if you feel like whining the whole session, just to get things out of your system, she is obliged to deal with it. Otherwise she picked the wrong job.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by ImperfectMe

Could you just imagine if a therapist had a sign in their office that said "No whining aloud". They'd go out of business.

well, you could still whine quietly.

[SkinnySoul]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

well, you could still whine quietly.

And why whine quietly?
We go to therapy because something feels or is really wrong, we have many reasons to whine and this is the place where we get to do this without being criticized.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

It really annoys me that she would say that. It was like teasing but once before she told me I was whiny and she didn't like it. At that session, I rephrased what I had said and she said that was better. Today it was at the end so I didn't get to say anything. I own that I did say it in a whiny voice but does she have the right to call me on it and make me feel bad?
I think she may have been trying to tease me out of that mood, but I'm not sure. Plus, I felt stuck and had no time to say it in a better way since the session was over. Do you think T was out-of-line or not?

It sounds like it wasn't very therapeutic, regardless of her intent.

I can totally understand wondering if she was sarcastic. I don't find therapy an enjoyable experience oftentimes. I also can hear it in a way that she may have been trying to tease you out of that mood. And I understand your frustration or discomfort at not having time to deal wtih it.

The tone I get from you is that you do like her, and recognize she may not have intended to chastise you. It may have been an awkward and ineffective effort to tease you, which can be bonding. If she really was being sarcastic I think it was out-of-line.

I imagine it's hard waiting until the next session to clarify this? or wondering whether to clarify it? Is that it?

[mixedup_emotions]

What strikes me, at the moment, is the idea that when you feel a strong unpleasant feeling about your T, you seem to want to judge and label.

There are times when being notified of an aspect of our behavior that may need to be looked at or changed - and knowing how it affects others - is useful. Her timing may have been off, but ultimately it needs to be put in the context of your session and your overall relationship.

Trying to get people to rally against your T to validate your feelings seems like something worth exploring.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

Trying to get people to rally against your T to validate your feelings seems like something worth exploring.

Oh boy is *that* a good suggestion!

Also, I've found that one thing that helps me is that, even when I might not like *how* something is said, there usually is some merit in *what* was trying to be conveyed.

If your therapist thought that you were whining, well, you likely were. That's okay, of course.

However, if this is something you would like to change, then maybe, instead of complaining, your therapist is saying that a more problem solving approach might be more helpful.

perhaps a deeper exploration of how your feeling about the situation, or why you felt the way you did.

I mean we can always talk about problems, but, I think one of the goals of therapy is to get us to think differently, and act differently when faced with them.

Just my two cents.

For me, whining has a connotation of a person who is complaining in a juvenile, regressed way about something they have no intention of changing. At least, that is how I use the term. I think it's worth exploring how your T uses that word and what exactly she is trying to convey to you when she uses it.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

Trying to get people to rally against your T to validate your feelings seems like something worth exploring.

Thanks for this, MUE. Whether or not that's your intention, Rainbow, that's often what ends up happening on these threads... it becomes either for or against your T, and for or against your feelings.

One thing to keep in mind is that it's possible for someone to do something that hurts your feelings, without them being unprofessional or out of line. It happens, and sometimes it's just bad timing or a bad call.

For me... I have a very, very hard time picturing the exchange between you and your T. Partly because you have switched the order (so now it's unclear whether you said "I don't know what to do" before or after she said "thanks for a wonderful session" or whatever she said), and partly because there is so much missing context that I don't know what each of you is responding to, except when you ask her if she's being sarcastic.

If I go by your original post, the conversation was something like:

R: "I don't know what to do." [About what? What was your tone? Were you near tears? Were you angry? Were you not feeling much about the comment?]
T: "Thank you for a wonderful session." [What in the world is that a response to?]
R: "Are you being sarcastic?"
T: "You're whining, and [whatever it is she said about not liking your whining]." [What is THIS a response to? What was whiny? The session? What you said just now? Was she still smiling when she said it? Or was she stern?]

To me it's like some avant-garde theater where it doesn't even seem like anyone is talking to anyone, and all the lines come out of nowhere, and it's impossible to tell what anyone is feeling.

There are two things your T said that you seem to consider unprofessional. The first was what appeared to a be a lightheartedly sarcastic comment (rather than a cruel one) about the session. I can see my T saying something like this when it's clear to him, as it seems to have been in your session, that both of us had a difficult and frustrating session. He's certainly said stuff like that -- "Well that was a pleasant exchange!" -- but I think he knows he can say that because his sense of humor is very similar to mine, and we're both very willing to laugh off a total disaster of a n exchange between us. And both find it therapeutic. He has also made lighthearted jokes at inappropriate times. I have been various degrees of upset about it at the time, and lately he's good about admitting if he's been insensitive or read the situation poorly. Which is usually all it comes down to. I don't think it makes him unprofessional, just human. Nor does it make me a bad patient to be hurt by it. Just human.

As for your whining, that's highly context-dependent. I don't think it's unprofessional per se, but it could certainly be delivered in an unprofessional manner. There are times when someone I know well telling me I am whining would help, and times when it would not. There are also some people I would be ok hearing it from, and some I would not. So while I don't think saying it makes her a bad T, it's quite possible it wasn't the most helpful thing for her to say at the time -- or at all. Try to avoid turning this into a black-and-white situation. It's possible she was trying to help in a way that might have been helpful to another person, but got it wrong.

There's nothing wrong with feeling upset or hurt by her comments. But that she said them, by itself, doesn't say that much about her as a T.

[Rive.]

It doesn't look like your T was out of line. Seeing it was the end of a session, there was no time to delve deeper into your remark anyway. It comes across as her not wanting you to leave with a defeatist attitude, or on a negative note (i.e. the not knowing what to do comment), thus her light-hearted comment (and hug).

It seems to me she was merely trying to put a positive spin on your parting remark or rather, trying to reframe the picture for you on a positive note.

[Jdog123]

Rainbow, you've listed so many ways that what she said (or you think she said) is out of character for your T. Rather than ruminate on it on all week or get on the board and like MUE said wait for us/encourage us to say that your T is wrong, you need to shelve this until you can talk face-to-face with her as hard as it might be for you and as much as it means that your T won't consume your thoughts as she is now. She might not have meant what you thought or she might say something like "wow, what I said at the end wasn't very compassionate, didn't come off the way that I'd wanted." It's not like she does this often/ever, from what you say and even if she is a professional she deserves to be cut some slack for one transgression--it most likely doesn't mean that she has changed how she feels about you. Occasionally this has happened with my T and resolving whatever she said, or I thought that she said, with her in person has been amazingly healing and good work. It's not easy to wait, will cause some stress, but is very good model for difficulties in other relationships, which is why you said above that you are in therapy. Good luck.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by SkinnySoul

YOUR therapy isn't about what your T likes.

Even if you feel like whining the whole session, just to get things out of your system, she is obliged to deal with it. Otherwise she picked the wrong job.

Thanks, SkinnySoul. My T doesn't react that way to anything else I say or how I say it. I think it's one of her quirks that I have to accept and discuss with her why she is pointing it out to me.

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

well, you could still whine quietly.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by SkinnySoul

And why whine quietly?
We go to therapy because something feels or is really wrong, we have many reasons to whine and this is the place where we get to do this without being criticized.

I agree but it's something that bothers T, so maybe it's "her stuff" that makes her want to point it out to me.

Originally Posted by Syra

It sounds like it wasn't very therapeutic, regardless of her intent.

I can totally understand wondering if she was sarcastic. I don't find therapy an enjoyable experience oftentimes. I also can hear it in a way that she may have been trying to tease you out of that mood. And I understand your frustration or discomfort at not having time to deal wtih it.

The tone I get from you is that you do like her, and recognize she may not have intended to chastise you. It may have been an awkward and ineffective effort to tease you, which can be bonding. If she really was being sarcastic I think it was out-of-line.

I imagine it's hard waiting until the next session to clarify this? or wondering whether to clarify it? Is that it?

Yes, I do like my T--very much!! I am pretty sure she meant it in a teasing way, to get me out of my mood as you say. But it was s double whammy--making that statement about the session, AND commenting on my whining. I'll bring it up at the next session if it still bothers me. Actually, I emailed her about the session but she doesn't email back so I still have to wait until next week. Thanks, Syra.

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

What strikes me, at the moment, is the idea that when you feel a strong unpleasant feeling about your T, you seem to want to judge and label.

There are times when being notified of an aspect of our behavior that may need to be looked at or changed - and knowing how it affects others - is useful. Her timing may have been off, but ultimately it needs to be put in the context of your session and your overall relationship.

Trying to get people to rally against your T to validate your feelings seems like something worth exploring.

Thanks, MUE. I agree that it was useful but her timing was off. Of course so was mine! I felt frustrated when I got up to leave and my words came out whiny.

I am honestly NOT trying to get people to rally against my T in this thread. TBH, I was feeling uncared about (yeah, it transfers to PC too) because I didn't get responses to my first thread, and thought I would try again, with a focus on what bothered me at the end of my session. I think what I wanted was some caring to counteract my bad feelings from the therapy. I was feeling sorry for myself. I should have posted the above too.

Originally Posted by elliemay

Oh boy is *that* a good suggestion!

Also, I've found that one thing that helps me is that, even when I might not like *how* something is said, there usually is some merit in *what* was trying to be conveyed.

If your therapist thought that you were whining, well, you likely were. That's okay, of course.

However, if this is something you would like to change, then maybe, instead of complaining, your therapist is saying that a more problem solving approach might be more helpful.

perhaps a deeper exploration of how your feeling about the situation, or why you felt the way you did.

I mean we can always talk about problems, but, I think one of the goals of therapy is to get us to think differently, and act differently when faced with them.

Just my two cents.

Thanks. I agree that whining is not helpful and my T pointed that out at another session. She doesn't see me as a general whiny person but I think I'm more that way at home than in my sessions. It just was poor timing at the end of the session when there wasn't time to discuss it.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

For me, whining has a connotation of a person who is complaining in a juvenile, regressed way about something they have no intention of changing. At least, that is how I use the term. I think it's worth exploring how your T uses that word and what exactly she is trying to convey to you when she uses it.

Thanks, mkac. The other time she commented that I was whining she asked me to rephrase what I said and I did it. She said that was better. I think she meant I sounded like a bratty kid, but I'll ask her again.

Originally Posted by SallyBrown

Thanks for this, MUE. Whether or not that's your intention, Rainbow, that's often what ends up happening on these threads... it becomes either for or against your T, and for or against your feelings.

One thing to keep in mind is that it's possible for someone to do something that hurts your feelings, without them being unprofessional or out of line. It happens, and sometimes it's just bad timing or a bad call.

For me... I have a very, very hard time picturing the exchange between you and your T. Partly because you have switched the order (so now it's unclear whether you said "I don't know what to do" before or after she said "thanks for a wonderful session" or whatever she said), and partly because there is so much missing context that I don't know what each of you is responding to, except when you ask her if she's being sarcastic.

If I go by your original post, the conversation was something like:

R: "I don't know what to do." [About what? What was your tone? Were you near tears? Were you angry? Were you not feeling much about the comment?]
T: "Thank you for a wonderful session." [What in the world is that a response to?]
R: "Are you being sarcastic?"
T: "You're whining, and [whatever it is she said about not liking your whining]." [What is THIS a response to? What was whiny? The session? What you said just now? Was she still smiling when she said it? Or was she stern?]

To me it's like some avant-garde theater where it doesn't even seem like anyone is talking to anyone, and all the lines come out of nowhere, and it's impossible to tell what anyone is feeling.

There are two things your T said that you seem to consider unprofessional. The first was what appeared to a be a lightheartedly sarcastic comment (rather than a cruel one) about the session. I can see my T saying something like this when it's clear to him, as it seems to have been in your session, that both of us had a difficult and frustrating session. He's certainly said stuff like that -- "Well that was a pleasant exchange!" -- but I think he knows he can say that because his sense of humor is very similar to mine, and we're both very willing to laugh off a total disaster of a n exchange between us. And both find it therapeutic. He has also made lighthearted jokes at inappropriate times. I have been various degrees of upset about it at the time, and lately he's good about admitting if he's been insensitive or read the situation poorly. Which is usually all it comes down to. I don't think it makes him unprofessional, just human. Nor does it make me a bad patient to be hurt by it. Just human.

As for your whining, that's highly context-dependent. I don't think it's unprofessional per se, but it could certainly be delivered in an unprofessional manner. There are times when someone I know well telling me I am whining would help, and times when it would not. There are also some people I would be ok hearing it from, and some I would not. So while I don't think saying it makes her a bad T, it's quite possible it wasn't the most helpful thing for her to say at the time -- or at all. Try to avoid turning this into a black-and-white situation. It's possible she was trying to help in a way that might have been helpful to another person, but got it wrong.

There's nothing wrong with feeling upset or hurt by her comments. But that she said them, by itself, doesn't say that much about her as a T.

Thanks for your detailed response, Sally. You make me see it more clearly. I can see why you're confused. It happened so fast that I do not remember the exact order of the conversation. I THINK I must have said "I don't know what to do" first, because the session wasn't so terrible that my T would have made such a joking comment about it, coming out of nowhere! She WAS smiling, but I wasn't in a place to see any humor. Immediately I said "are you being sarcastic?" and she said "you're whining, and.... I have to tell you that" or some such words.

I know she's human and she's still an excellent T. I know she never would intentionally hurt me. I've been with her for almost 4 years now but it's only a few times that I've seen this part of her--the joking, slightly teasing, frustrated part. She hasn't criticized me very often; she's always been sweet, caring, and compassionate. It just takes some getting used to.

I don't mean the thread to be for or against my T, or for or against my feelings. I wasn't looking for a debate. I just want to be heard and cared about. I'm not going about it in the best way, I suppose. Maybe this thread was whiny. I could have written "I feel unloved and unwanted because of my session." Could I please have some hugs"? That's more what I was looking for now that I think about it.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I don't mean the thread to be for or against my T, or for or against my feelings. I wasn't looking for a debate. I just want to be heard and cared about. I'm not going about it in the best way, I suppose. Maybe this thread was whiny. I could have written "I feel unloved and unwanted because of my session." Could I please have some hugs"? That's more what I was looking for now that I think about it.

I wouldn't necessarily call the thread whiny. But it did seem to me like you were feeling really upset about how things went at your session, and sometimes it's a proxy for comfort if someone agrees with you when they say that someone who hurt you was wrong -- it's an indirect approach to getting at "I'm sorry, that sounds like it hurt!" rather than a direct one.

It's hard not to get really upset when T seems to be tone deaf to what would be helpful in the moment, especially after a break, when expectations can be high. And I did realize after I posted that one thing I *didn't* say that I had been thinking was that even though I can totally see how T's intentions might be good, I can also totally see how this would suck to deal with. And to have to wait to address.

So:

i don't think she meant any harm by it

hell, sounds to me that she was just expressing that you and her are doing good in her sessions, hence "i had a wonderful time". or, " i enjoy working with you"