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View Poll Results: Should someone who's consistently unstable in RL seek a career other than being a T?
yes; if you can't get stable, you can't help your clients 74 88.10%
yes; if you can't get stable, you can't help your clients
74 88.10%
no; being unstable in your life won't affect your clients 3 3.57%
no; being unstable in your life won't affect your clients
3 3.57%
no; you should pursue the career you want regardless of how it affects clients 1 1.19%
no; you should pursue the career you want regardless of how it affects clients
1 1.19%
Not sure 6 7.14%
Not sure
6 7.14%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 09:58 AM
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Lauliza Lauliza is offline
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I think many people go into the mental health field because they are inspired by personal experience, either their own or that of someone close to them. So if there are issues but they have them under control and take care of themselves, its fine and can even be helpful. Take Marsha Linehan, who is borderline but manages it and is stable. Her personal experience has helped countless people.

But someone who isn't so together is dangerous. I think at the MD level, they cannot be licensed and have a documented serious mental illness. However, at the social worker or Mental health counselor level, I think they can be. In Massachusetts I believe they can't even check those records. That might be one reason why there are so many bad counselors in practice.
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  #27  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 10:12 AM
stopdog stopdog is offline
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Originally Posted by amee200 View Post

But someone who isn't so together is dangerous. I think at the MD level, they cannot be licensed and have a documented serious mental illness.
I know of md's who get ECT treatments.
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  #28  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 10:29 AM
Syra Syra is offline
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I have a friend who I suspect has a personality disorder of some kind, or else severe trauma not yet resolved. I know others who worry she will decompensate one of these days. And yet she's like the energizer bunny, and keeps going. She is forever processing, at length. Sometimes I can't even follow her. And yet, she is kind, open, non-judgmental, accepting, incredibly empathetic and able to focus on the other person. I think she'd be a good T - but then I'm kind of in the group of people who don't think Ts should be "telling it like it is," be very directive (challenging questions if truly open and not asked with theT thinking they know the answer are okay) or be diagnosing.
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  #29  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 10:42 AM
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I know of md's who get ECT treatments.
Having ECT doesn't mean a person is necessarily, actually unstable though. I think most people here are talking about real instability that interferes/damages their ability to be at all effective in their profession.
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  #30  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 10:52 AM
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unlockingsanity unlockingsanity is offline
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I think "inspired by personal experience" is a long ways away from current destructive behaviours like continuing to self harm.

Obviously there are going to be T's who face challenges and continue to work. I remember reading a story about someone who had a therapist who had their spouse and child killed in a car accident. The therapist took a leave, but you'd have to expect that they would still be grieving even when they returned to work. The person sharing the story didn't feel like they could return to therapy because of how public the accident was and that they would be so empathetically affected for their therapist that the relationship would no longer be the best choice for treatment.

Now imagine someone who has a severe mental health condition that is not under control or even been treated. Imagine how much that would impact the relationship and the well being of the therapist anytime anything triggering came up. I'm unconvinced that even if a person could "put aside" their issues for the hour, that stuff still wouldn't come up unconsciously.

Everyone is going to bring baggage to a relationship, but I think untreated or health issues that are not in remission only spell trouble for all involved. I think in a lot of professions, you could get around issues like this, but I think therapy is a tricky profession for this.
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  #31  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by scorpiosis37 View Post
I realize that it's not my place to involve myself in anyone else's career choices... but I can't help but feel somewhat concerned.
Is this person supervised by anyone that you can reasonably talk to about this?
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  #32  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Lauliza Lauliza is offline
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Originally Posted by stopdog View Post
I know of md's who get ECT treatments.
Anxiety and depression may not be the same. It seems like at some point everyone suffers from one or both of these and Ts are human after all. I was thinking along the lines of bipolar disorder, but I could be way off here. I thought it was something I heard...
  #33  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 11:20 AM
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archipelago archipelago is offline
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I do think there is an important distinction between having "issues" and being "unstable" as people have pointed out. Someone who is unstable shouldn't be allowed to be with clients. And as I have said, there are ways that this type of thing is monitored so it doesn't happen. Also interns have to earn thousands of hours before they are even allowed to sit for the exam. During that period there is supervision so if even if "issues" are coming up, that has to be addressed. If a person has too many issues coming up that interfere with the ability to be there for clients, then they should take a pause and seek out help, even if relatively minor but still affecting them consistently. People hopefully who enter the field have enough self-awareness that they know when they are in need of help and are ethical enough to do no harm. Of course that is asking a lot, but the profession demands a lot. It is not a typical professional relationship where these things won't come up, even if in non-direct ways. And clients are very sensitive to the subjectivity of their therapists so it can cause problems. There is no shame in taking time off. My zen teacher who was getting her hours took time off during an ugly divorce because she took it hard and knew she wouldn't be present. It disappointed her regular clients, but in the end it was the right thing to do even for them.
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  #34  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 11:33 AM
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Asiablue Asiablue is offline
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Originally Posted by My kids are cool View Post
Asia, I admire so much your level of self-awareness and ability to put the interests of your future clients first. I think that, for me, what I was talking about in terms of 'instability' was much more about active illness and the personality disorders, rather than just sort of low grade, background issues that would not affect clients. I have one acquaintance who has a history of CSA, and while I really feel for her, she will be so dangerous to clients if she ever starts practicing. She has borderline personality disorder, and she thinks she is FINE and totally stable and has conquered her illness (or presents herself as if she thinks this). From the outside looking in, though, she clearly still has huge issues and cannot handle disagreement, disappointment, or too many fluctuations in her life or the moods of those around her. She still has giant issues around abandonment and feeling left out. I cannot see her ever handling the kind of push/pull thing that happens in therapy, or reacting well if a client disagrees with or challenges her.



Perhaps part of this issue is that some people do not have the self awareness or the insight that Asia has. They think their problems are solved or not so bad that the problems will affect clients. I see several people also who clearly look unstable to me, and who TO ME seem like they would be horrible therapists due to their issues, but who seem to think they are fine and stable and able to be therapists.

I know there were times when I was not functioning as well as I could because of my own issues with depression. I tried really hard to keep it from affecting my clients, but I am not certain I was always successful. Luckily in my profession, it's generally not the case that my mistakes would affect someone's mental healthy status.
I am very self-aware and insightful but i also suffer many of the traits of borderline personality, i've never had a psych evaluation so not sure if i def have it or just have the traits of it, it has been alluded to by therapists. So abandonment issues are huge for me (how would i handle a client leaving abruptly?) I don't deal well with interpersonal relationships (what if one client reminded me of my mother? Or if a client reminded me so much of me that it irritated me?) and the push pull thing you speak of is very prevalent in my relationships.
The scary thing is, i hide it all really well which is a byproduct of my upbringing, and am very self-aware that these feelings/behaviours aren't good or healthy so i try really hard not to indulge in them but i could easily pass as stable and a school would have no worries about me becoming a therapist and it wouldn't be until i was in the job that perhaps some of these traits i have could interfere with the therapeutic relationship. I am not willing to take that risk. I've had crap therapists and i know the damage it does.

Not all borderlines are outwardly emotionally unstable and unaware. The classically acting out borderline would easily be picked out as unsuitable for therapy training but there are "quiet borderlines" which act inwards rather than outwards and they are much harder to spot and might slip thru the net. I think if anything i am one of those. Luckily with my awareness and perfectionist streak i need to know that i am not going to harm anyone and that i am the best therapist i can possibly be and to do that i need to solve my own problems first.
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  #35  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 11:55 AM
Dontfeellikeme Dontfeellikeme is offline
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Im not a therapist but I am a mental health nurse. I don't think my mental health problems have anything to do with the quality of care I give to those I work with.
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  #36  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by archipelago View Post
I do think there is an important distinction between having "issues" and being "unstable" as people have pointed out. Someone who is unstable shouldn't be allowed to be with clients. And as I have said, there are ways that this type of thing is monitored so it doesn't happen. Also interns have to earn thousands of hours before they are even allowed to sit for the exam. During that period there is supervision so if even if "issues" are coming up, that has to be addressed. If a person has too many issues coming up that interfere with the ability to be there for clients, then they should take a pause and seek out help, even if relatively minor but still affecting them consistently. People hopefully who enter the field have enough self-awareness that they know when they are in need of help and are ethical enough to do no harm. Of course that is asking a lot, but the profession demands a lot. It is not a typical professional relationship where these things won't come up, even if in non-direct ways. And clients are very sensitive to the subjectivity of their therapists so it can cause problems. There is no shame in taking time off. My zen teacher who was getting her hours took time off during an ugly divorce because she took it hard and knew she wouldn't be present. It disappointed her regular clients, but in the end it was the right thing to do even for them.
I just disagree that unstable people are as easily or as thoroughly screened out as you say. I have experiences with therapists which tell me that toxic people are getting through the cracks, my acquaintance that I mentioned earlier for one.

I read things on this forum and on blogs from folks studying to be therapists that tell me that DEFINITELY unhealthy/unstable people are sliding through and becoming therapists. Some of those people KNOW they are unstable and express their concerns that their schools will somehow prevent them from becoming therapists, yet they continue through school and eventually become therapists. In my State at least one person that I know of has sued under the ADA because her program tried to prevent her from becoming a licensed T due to her mental health issues.
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  #37  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 12:21 PM
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The other issue is that a person could be stable while going through training and the instability may manifest later, after licensing. Not all mental illness develops while young.
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  #38  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 12:29 PM
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Perhaps my experience has been different. All I'm saying is that professional schools have to attend to student behavior as well as academics and do evaluations and have meetings to discuss each candidate. Plus when they are in the field there are evaluations of their work. Schools are hyper about not getting sued so they tend to follow through on this. Can they let people through the cracks? Well of course, but then they can get investigated by the accredition body or other boards that oversee training. If someone has slipped through it will show up with clients and clients should be aware that the therapist isn't acting right and terminate. And make a complaint as well so it's on record. Eventually a unstable person working in the field will either end up with no or few clients or with a suit or investigation. I think that the field is "policed" as much as is possible and more than others in some senses. Plus the therapist having difficulties might realize it on their own and at least seek help, consultation, or take a break. Does that solve all the problems? No, but you can't solve everything perfectly all the time. I have been surprised to read about some of what people encounter in therapy and been shocked at the behavior of the therapist so I know that it occurs and does serious harm. I'm not treating this lightly. I'm just stating that there are ways to screen people and it usually happens in professional schools and after in supervision or agencies.
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  #39  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 12:35 PM
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After licensing the therapist still needs to do certain things to maintain the license so there is still contact with bodies that oversee them. And they often work at agencies or have contact with colleagues so there are ways that people could find out and see a red flag and do something about it. Plus the clients will end up not going any more, which should give a clear signal to the therapist that they aren't working effectively. Unfortunately it is not exactly as tight as say being a physician so I can see the worry about people slipping through and doing harm. There are however bad professionals in every field. Usually that comes out over time and prevents the harm from happening.
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  #40  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 12:59 PM
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Who do you suppose is drawn to this profession? I think it is people who have known pain who want to help other people deal with their own pain. There is no one "in charge" to make these decisions - life is pretty much run by committee.

Last edited by sabby; Dec 06, 2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: administrative edit
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  #41  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 01:12 PM
The_little_didgee The_little_didgee is offline
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A therapist has to know who they are before they can attempt to help clients. This is a quality I look for in a therapist, because it indicates conviction and authenticity. I am much more willing to listen and heed advice from that kind of individual than someone who doesn't know who they are.

I think people who recovered from trauma and other struggles can make superb therapists. They just have to make sure to maintain their recovery and/or mental health so it does not interfere with their profession.
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  #42  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 01:25 PM
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Perhaps it also matters what one goes to a therapist for. I don't seek guidance or advice from a therapist. Therefore, to me, it does not matter if they can do that or not. I do expect them to sit there and appear not crazy at me for 50 minutes. Other than that, I don't care what they do.
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  #43  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:14 PM
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I'm unstable right now and I'm in training to be a T, it's going to take me 5 more years till I'm in practice, and I'm working to get better, when you're in training to be a T you are forced to go to a T. And they train you on how to take care of yourself, and teach us to go see a T If that person is seeking/getting T there is no problem
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  #44  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:36 PM
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I'm trying to imagine what it would be like if I had T that had attachment issues. My typical MO is to try to push people away. It would be quite a volatile combination.
  #45  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:39 PM
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Many people have attachment issues of a variety of types. When they are put in combination, things can get out of hand. Attachment is taught and is a general approach that newer research supports. The good news is that adult attachment styles can change from earlier insecure ones to secure ones. That's why someone should go to therapy who wants to be a therapist. And also use supervision and consultation as much as possible.
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  #46  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:48 PM
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I need a T who is stable enough to deal with me. I can be trying at times, project a lot of anger into my T (serves as a sub) and need a T who can take it.
I too met a T who obviously dealt with a lot of her own issues (needed constant validation for her clients- yeah I know not that bad esp after reading some stories on PC) - that's why I'd go only to a licenced psychotherapist (here it means 5 yr of additional training- including group and individual therapy plus supervision)- still the mental health is not guaranteed but at least it's stg... God knows I don't need to be more messed up than I already am.
  #47  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:51 PM
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I think how you've described, someone going in and out of residential treatment and harming themselves, is not stable enough to become a T. I think it's sort of like becoming a police officer. I'm not fully aware of those requirements, but I know that it's very intense, full of background checks, lie-detector tests, and an evaluation of the person's ethics and morals. It's only somewhat comparable, but it is of crucial importance that a T does no harm, so the requirements should be strict. That said, I'm willing to bet the best Ts have gone through/are going through issues of their own. But should be stable.
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  #48  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:57 PM
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Yeah, I think this thread reflects more our own fears and experiences, and what we think SHOULD happen, or what we wish WOULD happen -- at least for me. I would wish that unstable people would be self-aware enough, or schools selective enough, that truly unhealthy unstable people did not end up as therapists. It is not that I do not have empathy for these people because god knows I have my own issues. It's that I do not want to inadvertently end up with someone unstable as my own therapist. It has happened to me, albeit briefly because I quickly changed therapists. Shoot, I had the one female therapist I tried really and truly YELL at me when I was trying to express how suicidally depressed I was to her and my husband. Berated me and asked me if I stopped and considered how I was going to make my husband feel before I said I was unable to stand the thought of living through the day. When I quit, she called my husband and told him he couldn't "let" me quit therapy with her.

So the subject of unstable, unhealthy therapists is a tender spot for me. I have a lot of fear around the issue. I think it's really unfortunate when people have not worked out their issues and become therapists anyway, unless they are very self aware about their issues and tailor their practices accordingly. My T admits he has issues still (they don't appear to be huge issues to me), but he tailors his practice and screens clients somewhat so he does not end up clients to whom he would do a disservice.
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  #49  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 03:59 PM
FeelingOpaque FeelingOpaque is offline
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If a T tells me they've had a "perfect" life and never had problems I'd assume they were a liar or somebody who has no idea what I'm going through or how to help. You have to understand what it feels like to go through hard emotional times to actually help someone with them.
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  #50  
Old Dec 05, 2013, 04:27 PM
stopdog stopdog is offline
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Originally Posted by Daeva View Post
when you're in training to be a T you are forced to go to a T.
This is not universally true. Both of the ones I see have commented that this should be a requirement for everyone with a license, but, at least in my state, it is not.
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