Found Out Something Disturbing About T

Yes, thank-you Syra. That is how I feel. I don't even need her to say that her partner was unethical-- only that she finds kind of behavior by a T in general to be unethical, or that she does not condone that kind of behavior in her own practice.

I'm not sure what is really going on but it feels to me like this is really about something else. I don't think you feel unsafe with your ts boundaries. It seems like you are wanting to challenge your t for some other purpose of which I am not sure. It feels like a stretch to be this distressed over something that didn't involve you and didn't even involve your t. I don't think anything she says is going to satisfy you as you seem to want to be upset with her.

I actually do feel unsafe. I don't feel unsafe physically, nor do I think my T would ever try to violate any kind of sexual boundary. However, I do feel emotionally unsafe. I feel like I can't just take T's judgment for granted anymore, and that is causing me to put up an emotional wall with her. A wall I don't want to have. Like I've said, the reason this is triggering me (i.e. causing me to have a strong reaction where others might not) is because of my own past experiences with having my boundaries violated, and that being a primary reason I am in therapy now. T is the person who first acknowledged the way my boundaries were violated in the past, and made me feel like she took them seriously. That was very healing for me. This situation (rightly or wrongly) causes me to question if T really meant it when she said those past situations were unethical and when she said I never should have had my boundaries violated in that way. Even if it isn't logical or fair, this situation just makes me think: "if T can accept a partner who violated boundaries, does she really think it was so bad when X violated my boundaries? Does T think it's ok to violate boundaries sometimes, under the "right" circumstances? What are Ts own views on boundaries in her own practice?" I absolutely do not want to be upset with T or have conflict with T. More than anything, I want to feel close and connected to T. Like I've said, I'm very strongly attached to her. This situation just caused me to take a step back and re-assess how vulnerable I feel comfortable being with her. I tell her things about my past and childhood/adolescent trauma I've never told anyone else, and I don't share on PC. The idea that Ts boundaries could even be called into question a little bit freaks me out and makes me feel emotionally unsafe.

I think this is the scariest part of relationships when a healthy one has not been modeled in our early life - negotiating; accepting that the other person - or even yourself! - isnt perfect. Thats one of the problems of being a perfectionist (im in recovery ) - people who can accept imperfections at least get SOME needs met. Perfect me gets left sitting alone on the sidelines, no needs met. Conditional love - we never got anything as kids. Unconditional love as adults - maybe reciprocal terms are better. Unconditional positive regard from t is just to help us make the jump from unhealthy to healthy - its not a place to stay forever. Imo.

Your T does seem kind of shockingly clueless... it seems like there are a lot of misunderstandings that stem from her not being able to relate to where you're coming from. Which is kind of her job.

You mentioned on my last comment that it wasn't the case that she had previously said something and you heard something else -- but I could have sworn you said she made it seem like having a partner would solve all your problems and you should be dating now, when in fact what she was saying was she wished you had a partner to help you out. I think it's still a weird thing to say, but it was definitely a misunderstanding. I guess, unless you think she was being untruthful about her actual meaning, and the meaning you gleaned the first time was the real meaning. Or, as you say, I'm misremembering.

Scorpiosis, I've been following this thread and haven't written anything. I feel very much for your situation and all the questions it raises--as someone who feels so safe with my T, yet could be very vulnerable given all she knows about me, it'd be hard were I to find out that she was in a triggering situation.

Reading your last few posts, I'm wondering whether it might be good to talk with another T for a session or 2. I'm not saying to leave your T or not keep working through this with her, but just to have an 'objective' therapist to talk to and work through some of this stuff. I know this could be hard given the nature of the situation (perhaps you live in a small college town). Do you have a former therapist whom you could trust? When I was in grad school, there was a T whom I saw a few times while she covered for my T whose husband was sick. A couple of years later when my T (a different one) and I were struggling I saw her for a consultation session. This was enormously helpful.

Good luck

Thank-you for this. Now that my T is no longer dating the other T, that issue isn't relevant anymore. However, I have been toying with the idea of consulting with another T about my T in general. I want to stay with my T, but there are some issues that keep coming up, and consulting about them might be helpful. I just don't know who I would go to-- I don't want to see someone who knows my T and, in my town, that is a bit of a challenge.

.... I just don't know who I would go to-- I don't want to see someone who knows my T and, in my town, that is a bit of a challenge.

My T told me about 9 months ago that she was ending her marriage with her husband and was now in a relationship with a woman who is also a therapist. That was definitely quite a bit of information to hear (she shared it in context; it made sense to disclose that at the time), but it was not earth-shattering. It left me with the question of: "did T cheat?" but nothing significant beyond that. Today, I heard from someone who knows a friend of T that T's new partner is actually T's (now ex) therapist! The woman T went to in order to get counseling for her marital issues is now her partner. If T chose to engage in a relationship with her own T, what does that say about her as a T herself? That just seems so unethical that it t really creeps me out. At this point, it is also a rumor because I have not heard it from T herself... but the person I heard it from is in Ts larger social circle and certainly would know who T was bringing as her "plus one" to social events. It also turns out that it's the same woman that my friend (who also sees T) told me she thought was dating T several months ago, when she saw the woman leave (a little too happy!) from Ts office as she was going in. This T was also featured in the newspaper awhile back: there was a whole story about her losing her T license for immediately beginning a sexual relationship with a client following termination (i.e. they did not wait the required 2 years; she stopped seeing T and the next day they were partners). So... my question is: what the hell do I do with this information? Do I keep it to myself? Do I ask T if it's true? Do I tell T that I heard "a rumor" about her and ask her what I should do in this kind of a situation? Let her decide if she wants to know about the rumor or respond to it? It's really, really creeping me out to think that my T is with her own T. It just calls her judgment into question and makes me lose trust in her. Unfortunately, it's also coming at a time when my connection with T is really good and I really need her. We just got over a minor rupture, and I've been feeling really close and connected to her since then. I don't want to bring this up, as I know it's NONE of my business... but how can knowing something like that not affect my therapy? It's also possible that it's not true... but I really think it is. Please help me figure out what I should do about this.

I find it odd that your T tells YOU what would make YOU happy - a partner. Isn't that a weird thing for a T to be doing? TELLING you what you should want. I thought therapists - the psychodynamic type - were to help a client find out for themselves what they need or want.

I would find it quite troubling if my T did that. And if she did and I told her she was wrong and then she continued????

My goodness. I understand you're attached but this very action of hers of constantly reiterating her opinion would make me seriously question any other help I thought I was receiving from her.

Good luck and hugs as you try to work through this.

So I talked to my today and told her what I heard. She told me that the information is partially true and partially untrue. She is in fact in a relationship with that particular woman, who did lose her license for engaging in a romantic relationship with a client. However, my T was not that client. Things didn't work out between the T and her client (shocker!) so she began dating my T instead. So, my T did nothing unethical herself. She was not involved in that situation. However, she did choose to pursue a relationship with a fellow T who was (at the very beginning) still dating her former client. I have really mixed feelings about this, and about my session today.

I told T that I was "okay" after she gave me her explanation and, in the moment, I meant it. I was relieved that T was not the client and I appreciated that my T was open and honest with me, and did not in any way make me feel bad about having to bring up something personal and uncomfortable. I was glad that this did not seem to affect my relationship with my T from her side, and I didn't want it to affect our relationship from my side either. I really needed to connect with my T today, and I did.

However, now that I've had some time to process things, it's starting to bug me a little. My T's partner is not a new or inexperienced T. She's been in practice 20 years. She's middle-aged. The client was not a T or a colleague or someone she knew before hand. The client was also not out; she was a married woman questioning her sexuality for the first time. I think the T took advantage of her-- and then dumped her like a hot potato. This is also not something that happened in that T's past. This happened 2 years ago. Who knows if she has learned from, repented, processed, or made amends for this situation. From the way my T talked about it, it seemed like she was minimizing it and justifying her partner's actions. It seems as though T's partner has gotten off pretty easy. She simply jumped ship with the former client (who, I would guess, was upset/hurt by this) and landed comfortably with my T. Her suspension is almost up, and she'll be back in practice in a matter of months.

In all honesty, it does make me question my T's judgment. What is appealing about a colleague who behaved so badly that she got her license suspended? Does my T have any empathy for the former client? Does she even know where that woman is now, and how this has affected her? Did the client herself make the report because she was so damaged by it?

The T-client relationship aside, I've also thought about all of the other clients who lost their T and had to start over with someone else because of this T's ethical violation. If the situation were reversed, and my T had an affair with another client and lost her license, that WOULD affect me because I'd no longer have my T. That would absolutely devastate me. Obviously, my T has not (and will not) have an affair with a client. But it just bugs me that she doesn't seem to think what her partner did was a big deal. Her reaction to the situation just didn't seem appropriate to me. She said she felt protective of her partner, because her partner gets such a bad rap in the community for what she did and people don't understand her partner's side of things. She also said that it was "not a big deal" because her partner would be getting her license back in a few months. I know nothing about the woman this T had an affair with, and I don't know if that woman is hurt by this (or if she seems to think it's no big deal also)... but I can't help but think of her, whoever she is. I can't help but that think that this (most likely) hurt her significantly and now this T is going to be back in practice, like it never happened. It also makes me wonder: If this T had an affair with a client 2 years ago, who is to say she won't do it again? This T just seems so unethical and "yucky" to me-- and I don't like to think that my T is in a relationship with someone like that. Of course, I realize that I don't know the whole story and I don't know this T. But do I trust my T's judgment, at least in her personal life? No, not at all. But, at the same time, I'm not concerned that my T is going to do the same thing and I'm not concerned about T's boundaries with me. I still care about and value my relationship with my T as much as I did before, but I think I've lost a little respect for her. I hate to say that because I like to think that I have unconditional positive regard for my T. If I've lost some respect for her, does that mean I no longer have unconditional positive regard for her?

I will give my T credit though for being open and honest and calm with me, and for thanking me for bringing the information to her attention. She said she was glad that I asked, and she said that I was very respectful in the way I approached the topic. She also said that her concern was for me and how this news affected me-- although, I do feel like, in all honesty, she was probably more concerned about her partner's reputation and how it affected her partner. Still, she was attentive to me and she did seem very genuine about not wanting this information to affect our relationship. She wasn't defensive; she was very warm and she demonstrated that my asking about this didn't change the way she felt about me. And, after about 15 minutes on this topic, we switched to something else about my own life, and I felt she was helpful in that context. We actually ended up having a rather fun, lively session with quite a bit of banter. We were both able to put this other issue aside and focus on my therapy. However, now that I'm back home and I'm done with my work and social obligations for the day, I find myself thinking about this situation and feeling a little upset. I'm not upset at my T, though; I'm upset at her partner. Of course, I don't know the woman and I don't know any of the details beyond what was in the newspaper and what was told to me by my date. Still... I don't know that there would be any context or any amount of backstory that would make this okay. And I'm upset that my T really minimized her partner's wrongdoing. She seemed, perhaps, a little blinded by love goggles. I could tell in the way she talked about her partner that she really cared for her. Yet, it was clear from what she told me that her partner is really viewed poorly in the community, and her partner's reputation is rubbing off on my T professionally. My T doesn't like that her reputation is being affected by her partner. But isn't this something she would have anticipated, going in? Of course people are going to question my T's ethics if she began a relationship with a fellow T who was in the process of un-coupling from her former client, who she lost her license over. Why wasn't this an ethical problem for my T? That was a question I had, but didn't feel I had a right to ask.

I suppose, now, I feel like there is more to say to my T... but I don't know that I would bring this up a second time. It may be better to just leave my T's personal life alone and only talk about myself. I think it will take me a little more time before I fully process how I feel about this.

Is it totally irrational for me to feel like I want to slap, tell off, or otherwise react against this other T? Obviously, I mean that only metaphorically. But she just gives me the "yucks" and she kind of pisses me off. I know my T loves her and I want my T to be happy-- but I don't get it. Shouldn't this woman's behavior give my T the "yucks" too?

One good thing, though, was that my T disclosed to me that she does have a therapist of her own. So, at the very least, my T is getting some therapy and has someone to process things with, if she needs to.

I still just feel kind of "weird." On the one hand, I feel very close to my T. I relate well to her, I have a strong relationship with her, I think she understands parts of me very well and I find her helpful when I talk about my issues. Yet, this information and my t's discussion of it makes me feel very distant from her. It makes me think that her ethical standards are not on par with mine. I'm a professor, so the obvious parallel would be sleeping with a student. I would Never cross that line, nor would I date someone who had crossed that line... especially recently. That would give me the "yucks" and, even if I was attracted to that colleague, I just wouldn't go there. I'd think they had bad judgment, bad boundaries, and I'd think they would be likely to re-offend. I think it's certainly possible that this T has done this before. Who's to say that 20 years into her career was the first time? Usually, in my department, those who sleep with students are re-offenders. They rarely do it just once, and they rarely get caught the first time. Maybe I'm too cynical... but I've seen it happen quite a bit.

Should I just leave this be now? Or Should I process my new feelings about this at my next session?


ETA:

I don’t want to express the fact that I think her partner acted unethically or that I have negative feelings towards her partner, because that’s only going to make her defensive. It would pit me against her partner and, even in the therapy room, her loyalty is going to lie with her partner and not with me. Maybe that’s what is difficult for me. With the situation with my friend awhile back, and now with this, I feel like I can’t fully express my feelings, because I don’t think T can fully be on my side. Her loyalty rests elsewhere. I don’t have anyone who can fully be on my side all of the time, and that’s something I want in a therapist. The whole point of not knowing that kind of information about T—and not having an RL intersection with T—is that it allows T to be “on your side.” That is what I feel like I’ve lost.

My T told me about 9 months ago that she was ending her marriage with her husband and was now in a relationship with a woman who is also a therapist. That was definitely quite a bit of information to hear (she shared it in context; it made sense to disclose that at the time), but it was not earth-shattering. It left me with the question of: "did T cheat?" but nothing significant beyond that. Today, I heard from someone who knows a friend of T that T's new partner is actually T's (now ex) therapist! The woman T went to in order to get counseling for her marital issues is now her partner. If T chose to engage in a relationship with her own T, what does that say about her as a T herself? That just seems so unethical that it t really creeps me out. At this point, it is also a rumor because I have not heard it from T herself... but the person I heard it from is in Ts larger social circle and certainly would know who T was bringing as her "plus one" to social events. It also turns out that it's the same woman that my friend (who also sees T) told me she thought was dating T several months ago, when she saw the woman leave (a little too happy!) from Ts office as she was going in. This T was also featured in the newspaper awhile back: there was a whole story about her losing her T license for immediately beginning a sexual relationship with a client following termination (i.e. they did not wait the required 2 years; she stopped seeing T and the next day they were partners). So... my question is: what the hell do I do with this information? Do I keep it to myself? Do I ask T if it's true? Do I tell T that I heard "a rumor" about her and ask her what I should do in this kind of a situation? Let her decide if she wants to know about the rumor or respond to it? It's really, really creeping me out to think that my T is with her own T. It just calls her judgment into question and makes me lose trust in her. Unfortunately, it's also coming at a time when my connection with T is really good and I really need her. We just got over a minor rupture, and I've been feeling really close and connected to her since then. I don't want to bring this up, as I know it's NONE of my business... but how can knowing something like that not affect my therapy? It's also possible that it's not true... but I really think it is. Please help me figure out what I should do about this.