[Yearning0723]

I screwed up so badly. T was upset about the email and reminded me about boundaries and that I knew better than to email her, which I did, but I did it anyway because my needs felt so overwhelming and that is a serious problem. I was so overwhelmed with so many things and I was just crying.

She wanted to talk more about the email and I thought I would be okay with that but what she said felt shaming and I just wasn't in a place to hear it so I told her we could talk about it next week but could we please talk about my mother stuff today because it is super important and because I know I'm going to respond really badly to her in the state I'm in, and she said she wouldn't be behaving ethically if she didn't bring it up with me, but we could talk about my mom stuff for ten minutes, but ten minutes wasn't going to be enough so I was getting anxious and then we spent eight minutes arguing about what we were going to discuss, and it just felt super adversarial and just wrong. She was mad at me; everyone is mad at me, and she wasn't going to help me problem solve.

She said it was going to take more than one session to figure it out but I wanted to figure out what to do for tonight at least because I told my mom I would call her tonight and the longer I wait the worse it will be, and T said my mistake was giving her a day I would call her back instead of just saying I needed some time, but she wouldn't LET me just say I needed some time.

I was so frustrated and overwhelmed that I was getting really upset with T and she was just reacting to me and it felt like she was just telling me how much I screwed up, even though I know I did, and that my needs are too big and that's a problem...I know that's not what she said but just how I took it, and then I started crying, a lot.

I never cry in front of her but I was just so off kilter that I was, and she said this mother stuff is important and (reproachfully) maybe we should spend our next sessions and maybe we should have spent our past sessions talking about that instead of about mentor figure and other stuff, and maybe I just need to give this more time and not talk to my mother for awhile. But I can't. My mother won't let me. And the longer I wait the angrier she will be.

And I realized today I don't really have a support system. Current mentor figure = no. My friend who I usually go to is going to be fed up with me if I keep burdening him with this stuff. T is once a week (and don't you get it that once a week means once a week? And if you can't do that, maybe you need another T or the DBT group or other things that cost money). And my anxiety right now is just too extreme.

We accomplished nothing; we spent most of the session just doing our back and forth with me feeling so ashamed and guilty and hopeless and overwhelmed and responding in a really upset way to her because I just wasn't in control, and that made it worse. We didn't get to talk about the email; we probably will next week but now she's upset at me and so is my mom and probably mentor figure too and I ruin stuff because my needs are just too big.

I was almost crying as our session ended and then I started crying hysterically in the waiting room when I got back out there. I wanted her to come after me when she heard me crying to make sure I was okay. She didn't. I knew she wouldn't. But all I really need today is for someone to hug me and tell me it's okay and they're here for me and they're not going anywhere. T obviously won't do that. No one will.

I feel so alone.

[RTerroni]

I have had this happen to me with Therapists in the past (one even terminated me becuase of it) so I know how hard it can be.

[IndestructibleGirl]

Yearning, I am so, so sorry this has happened to you. Giant safe hugs. Is there anyone like a school counsellor you could drop in with just for a bit of emergency support? It may help make you feel less alone?

Or do you have any friends, even far away, who you could contact for a Skype call or something just to vent?

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by IndestructibleGirl

Yearning, I am so, so sorry this has happened to you. Giant safe hugs. Is there anyone like a school counsellor you could drop in with just for a bit of emergency support? It may help make you feel less alone?

Or do you have any friends, even far away, who you could contact for a Skype call or something just to vent?

No...the counsellors at my school only do drop ins for emergencies (ex you're feeling suicidal - they literally just run through a safety plan with you and that's all). T said to call a crisis line, but I've done that before and their suggestion is just to talk to my T and they can't tell me anything beyond that because that might "detrimentally impact" the work I'm doing with T if they helped me more than that.

I thought I had an okay support system, but I lost a friend recently, now lost my mom, now lost T emotionally (although to be fair I never had her to begin with). I'm ruining everything...with my mom, with mentor figure, with T...I have no one.

I don't know what to do. I thought maybe just go home and try to be calm until next week like what I've done for the past few days, but until what? Until my session with T? What good will that do? I thought last week I could keep my anxiety at bay until I saw T and then I would figure out a plan. I was okay with the anxiety, but then seeing T made it even worse.

[Yearning0723]

My first instincts are: call T (not an option), go to mentor figure (definitely not an option unless I want to make things even worse) or go to my only friend who I've already been burdening too much with this. What else can I do?

[learning1]

Have you tried journaling about it? You can write as much as you want. Hugs (((Yearning))))

[Freewilled]

I'm sorry That sounds like a really brutal session. I imagine I'd feel much like you - in fact, I can picture myself having the same type of response. Especially wishing my T would come after me and comfort me but knowing he never would....

Do you think this is a reenactment of some kind?

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by learning1

Have you tried journaling about it? You can write as much as you want. Hugs (((Yearning))))

I journal a lot. It sometimes makes things clearer. This time, it hasn't. It helps me between sessions, but it doesn't resolve the situation or my feelings of loneliness. I can't do this alone. I don't have the skills or the tools to take care of myself completely. I don't think anyone does. What I really need is for someone to be there for me and hug me and listen to me and just let me cry. I thought I could do that with T today, but she was impatient, and so was I. For me, the time I spent crying = time not spent discussing two hours' worth of things that I needed to fit into fifty minutes and for her, the time I spent crying = me taking up time that should have been spent discussing my boundary violation.

I thought I was okay, but it's just an illusion. I don't have a support system. I'm still doing stupid things. I've lost everyone now. I have no one to turn to. And turning to myself is a band aid on a bullet wound.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I'm sorry That sounds like a really brutal session. I imagine I'd feel much like you - in fact, I can picture myself having the same type of response. Especially wishing my T would come after me and comfort me but knowing he never would....

Do you think this is a reenactment of some kind?

I always want people to come after me when I'm upset, but no one ever has and I know no one ever will. No one cares that much. I care that much about others, but no one cares that much about me. I guess it's just that I wish parents would have comforted me when I was little instead of leaving me to comfort myself...but I'm not little anymore and it's never going to happen. Time to accept that.

T was so upset with me...and current mentor is too (in my imagination)...and I know I can't control their feelings but I just want them both to reassure me that it's okay and they'll still be here for me. But it's not true. They won't. Time to accept that, too.

T wants to make me boundaried and independent, like she is. But my secret is that I don't want that. I just want people to love me. I wish they could. But since I know they can't love me the way I need to be loved, being independent is just what I need to do. It's survival.

[Freewilled]

Wow Yearning....I so get what you are saying. I don't know the answers though..... I know how to be independent and need absolutely NO ONE. Of course, it leads to extreme self-loathing and Sui now (ugh....so it worked for quite a few years anyways) but I can't make someone care either. I don't get it - we go to therapy for what again? If your T wants you to be boundaried and independent, why? What does she think that will do for you? How does that work? Does she tell you any of these things?

I feel like she gets mad at you for bringing your problems into the session but isn't that what therapy is all about? I can see why the email would upset her. She's asked you explicitly not to email her like that and you did anyway. But I think her getting mad at you is questionable. But when you say "mad" what do you mean exactly?

[Middlemarcher]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

She wanted to talk more about the email and I thought I would be okay with that but what she said felt shaming and I just wasn't in a place to hear it so I told her we could talk about it next week but could we please talk about my mother stuff today because it is super important and because I know I'm going to respond really badly to her in the state I'm in, and she said she wouldn't be behaving ethically if she didn't bring it up with me, but we could talk about my mom stuff for ten minutes, but ten minutes wasn't going to be enough so I was getting anxious and then we spent eight minutes arguing about what we were going to discuss, and it just felt super adversarial and just wrong. She was mad at me; everyone is mad at me, and she wasn't going to help me problem solve.

She said it was going to take more than one session to figure it out but I wanted to figure out what to do for tonight at least because I told my mom I would call her tonight and the longer I wait the worse it will be, and T said my mistake was giving her a day I would call her back instead of just saying I needed some time, but she wouldn't LET me just say I needed some time.

I know that these are very hard feelings in a very hard situation, but it seems like you're looking to avoid them. "Responding to her badly in the state you're in" seems like important therapeutic work to me-- actually feeling your feelings, in the moment, and expressing them, authentically.

I never cry in front of her but I was just so off kilter that I was, and she said this mother stuff is important and (reproachfully) maybe we should spend our next sessions and maybe we should have spent our past sessions talking about that instead of about mentor figure and other stuff, and maybe I just need to give this more time and not talk to my mother for awhile. But I can't. My mother won't let me. And the longer I wait the angrier she will be.

How will your mother "not let you" not talk to her for a while? Even if she called 40 times a day or showed up to where you're staying, you wouldn't have to answer the phone or the door. While I know it's terrible to feel that someone is angry at you, what is so pressing about this that it must be immediately resolved? I agree with your T that your issues with your mother and your issues (transference, etc) with your T are not going to be solved overnight. These are awful, tremendously strong feelings you're having, but there's no short-cut through this. (At least, not one that my T knows of--and believe me, I've asked. )

And if you can't do that, maybe you need another T or the DBT group or other things that cost money). And my anxiety right now is just too extreme.

Are you seeing a pdoc or on any meds? You may or may not want to try meds, but it's an option out there, anyway. They can aid you in your work in T.

We didn't get to talk about the email; we probably will next week but now she's upset at me and so is my mom and probably mentor figure too and I ruin stuff because my needs are just too big.

What are you afraid is going to happen as a result of T being mad at you?

I know this is so hard.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

Wow Yearning....I so get what you are saying. I don't know the answers though..... I know how to be independent and need absolutely NO ONE. Of course, it leads to extreme self-loathing and Sui now (ugh....so it worked for quite a few years anyways) but I can't make someone care either. I don't get it - we go to therapy for what again? If your T wants you to be boundaried and independent, why? What does she think that will do for you? How does that work? Does she tell you any of these things?

I feel like she gets mad at you for bringing your problems into the session but isn't that what therapy is all about? I can see why the email would upset her. She's asked you explicitly not to email her like that and you did anyway. But I think her getting mad at you is questionable. But when you say "mad" what do you mean exactly?

Mad = my impression of her, her tone, etc. And her insistence that we discuss it right this very second even though she could see how distressed I was. And that she was like, "You know better, you need more support than I can provide, you're having trouble keeping the boundaries." Not exactly in those words, but pretty close. And she's right, 100%. I do know better, and I am having trouble keeping the boundaries, and I know she can't fill my needs. But then who can? She thinks I can fill them myself, and maybe someday I will be able to, but right now I can't, and how is letting me flounder on my own before I'm ready good for me? It's what my parents used to do. It didn't make me strong, just resentful. It just made me not trust people. Making your thirteen year old take care of her own emotional needs is not actually going to give that thirteen year old the capacity to take care of those needs herself. It solves nothing.

T thinks that I will learn to take care of myself by taking care of myself. But I can't. Not having other people just reminds me of my own incompetence.

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

T wants to make me boundaried and independent, like she is. But my secret is that I don't want that. I just want people to love me. I wish they could. But since I know they can't love me the way I need to be loved, being independent is just what I need to do. It's survival.

I suspect what you T hopes you will learn is that this isn't black or what. You can have independence and good boundaries AND have people who you are in healthy relationship with and who love you. It isn't either/or. In fact, with good boundaries and a sense of independence, you will find people are more willing and able to love you freely and fully.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Middlemarcher

I know that these are very hard feelings in a very hard situation, but it seems like you're looking to avoid them. "Responding to her badly in the state you're in" seems like important therapeutic work to me-- actually feeling your feelings, in the moment, and expressing them, authentically.

How will your mother "not let you" not talk to her for a while? Even if she called 40 times a day or showed up to where you're staying, you wouldn't have to answer the phone or the door. While I know it's terrible to feel that someone is angry at you, what is so pressing about this that it must be immediately resolved? I agree with your T that your issues with your mother and your issues (transference, etc) with your T are not going to be solved overnight. These are awful, tremendously strong feelings you're having, but there's no short-cut through this. (At least, not one that my T knows of--and believe me, I've asked. )

Are you seeing a pdoc or on any meds? You may or may not want to try meds, but it's an option out there, anyway. They can aid you in your work in T.

What are you afraid is going to happen as a result of T being mad at you?

I know this is so hard.

I can't get meds without a diagnosis, and right now, no doctor is going to diagnose me with anything. I've seen several pdocs and none thought my anxiety was serious enough to justify pills. And usually it isn't. Just occasionally. And they're not going to give me meds so I can take a soma holiday whenever stuff goes wrong. That will solve nothing.

And I've had situations where I respond to T when I'm upset. She escalates. We get nowhere when I'm out of control with her. She just gets defensive tells me that the way I'm talking to her isn't okay and then wants me to look at how the way I'm behaving now is reflected in my conflicts with other people. All that does is make me feel even more guilty when I'm out of control. Her response to me being out of control always feels like shaming. Or at least, I feel ashamed when she responds to me in that state. It accomplishes nothing.

And if I don't solve this problem now with my mother, it will get worse and worse. It's like accumulating interest on a loan. You borrow $10. If you pay it back next week, you pay back $10. If you pay it back next month, you pay back $12. If you pay it back next year, you pay back $120. The longer I wait, the more difficult it will be to deal with. And time I spend away from her means time spent away from my brother who I adore and my grandfather who is in poor health, but who I won't be able to see if I'm not seeing my mother. If I lose her, I lose everyone. Those are the rules of the game.

The issues won't be solved overnight, but having a new perspective or a short term plan to get me through the week would have been nice.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

I suspect what you T hopes you will learn is that this isn't black or what. You can have independence and good boundaries AND have people who you are in healthy relationship with and who love you. It isn't either/or. In fact, with good boundaries and a sense of independence, you will find people are more willing and able to love you freely and fully.

That's just stuff therapists say. Do you ever hear people who haven't been in therapy sitting around discussing their boundaries and telling each other, "You've infringed upon my boundary?" No. People just live their lives and negotiate things organically, and for the most part it works for them.

Being fairly independent and emotionally stable is good for relationships. But if you're able to fill all your needs yourself, then why would you even want relationships with other people? No one can fill all their needs themselves. That's why solitary confinement is classified as torture by the UN. No man is an island and no one can do it alone.

[Freewilled]

If she said "you know better" I strongly disagree with her method. That is shaming. Of course you KNOW better - but you're in therapy not just because of any cognitive reasoning stuff (if any at all) but emotional processes that aren't always rational.

Is she a CBT therapist?

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

That's just stuff therapists say. Do you ever hear people who haven't been in therapy sitting around discussing their boundaries and telling each other, "You've infringed upon my boundary?" No. People just live their lives and negotiate things organically, and for the most part it works for them.

Being fairly independent and emotionally stable is good for relationships. But if you're able to fill all your needs yourself, then why would you even want relationships with other people? No one can fill all their needs themselves. That's why solitary confinement is classified as torture by the UN. No man is an island and no one can do it alone.

No, people don't talk about boundaries, but the DO observe them, keep them, respect them quite regularly if they are managing to get along in the world without too much drama in their relationships. It isn't just therapist talk; the ability to hold and respect boundaries is pretty vital.

Again you are thinking in black and white. Being independent doesn't exclude relationships. In fact, with independence comes real understanding of what you can manage independently and the ability to ask for help appropriately when you need someone to lean on. Independence means you can think for yourself and manage your life with confidence, but part of that confidence is the trust that others can help you when you really need it and that you can ask for that help appropriately. It isn't one or the other.

[Middlemarcher]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

And I've had situations where I respond to T when I'm upset. She escalates. We get nowhere when I'm out of control with her. She just gets defensive tells me that the way I'm talking to her isn't okay and then wants me to look at how the way I'm behaving now is reflected in my conflicts with other people. All that does is make me feel even more guilty when I'm out of control. Her response to me being out of control always feels like shaming. Or at least, I feel ashamed when she responds to me in that state. It accomplishes nothing.

For me, it would be important to talk (in person) about how she seems defensive to you, and to talk about your feelings of guilt and shame. The feelings are important--the guilt, the shame, the feeling that your needs are too much. Talking about this stuff with my T changed how I felt and reacted in conflict situations with other people (and yes, the way I felt and reacted with her often mirrored those situations).

[HazelGirl]

I really dislike your T. Seriously. This isn't how things with your T should go. You need to be able to discuss what you want to, and so I really think you need a new T.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

If she said "you know better" I strongly disagree with her method. That is shaming. Of course you KNOW better - but you're in therapy not just because of any cognitive reasoning stuff (if any at all) but emotional processes that aren't always rational.

Is she a CBT therapist?

She didn't exactly say "you know better"; she said, "you know that I'm only here for you once a week and you agreed during our first session not to email me about personal things." I mean, she's right; she's definitely right. But I knew that already. What I really needed was for her to just say, "Okay, you made a mistake, but I'm here for you anyway and I'm not upset at you and it doesn't change anything."

But of course, I didn't, she's not, she is, and it does. It was deliberate of me. I know it was wrong. I do stupid things when I'm all emotional like this. I will probably continue to do stupid things like that in the future. And asking her to just take it in stride is what I need (I think) but it isn't fair to her.

She doesn't do CBT with me; she mostly works from an attachment framework.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

No, people don't talk about boundaries, but the DO observe them, keep them, respect them quite regularly if they are managing to get along in the world without too much drama in their relationships. It isn't just therapist talk; the ability to hold and respect boundaries is pretty vital.

Again you are thinking in black and white. Being independent doesn't exclude relationships. In fact, with independence comes real understanding of what you can manage independently and the ability to ask for help appropriately when you need someone to lean on. Independence means you can think for yourself and manage your life with confidence, but part of that confidence is the trust that others can help you when you really need it and that you can ask for that help appropriately. It isn't one or the other.

I can think for myself and manage my life on my own, for the most part. I don't need other people around me 24/7 and I don't need constant hand-holding just to get through the day. I need other people when really bad things happen, ex. the situation with my mother. Anyone would need other people in that situation. But independence, according to most people, is the ability to deal with my distress on my own and get it down to a level that's socially acceptable to other people.

But it's never socially acceptable to other people. Think about the most distressed a person could possibly be, when they're feeling suicidal. When I felt this way, what I really needed was for my father to take the day off work to spend some time with me and sit with me and listen to me and hug me and be there for me. That would have helped me wait for the feelings to pass and give me something to live for in the short term. What I got instead was a psychiatric hospital where they gave me medication, needles, and threatened to restrain me if I didn't stop pacing around the room. I kept asking the nurses for a hug or to hold my hand because I needed to feel a little tiny bit of support in that situation. No one obliged. I felt so alone. And I couldn't do it alone. But that was the situation. I didn't get a choice.

I need someone to lean on now too. I can't be completely independent. I'm independent enough to be functional, independent enough that I don't fear being alone, independent enough to state my boundaries when I need to. But I'm not independent enough to handle all of my important relationships crumbling simultaneously. And I don't think anyone ever is. My grandfather lost two of his sisters and his wife in the space of a year. He needed a lot of support during that time. People were at his house every day bringing him food and giving him company and offering to help him with various things. He needed that in that moment. It doesn't mean he's not independent; it means he was suffering an extreme loss and needed some support.

I'm suffering now and I need some support. But there's no one here to give it to me. T's solution = give it to yourself. But I can't. I can give myself a lot of support, but there are limits. My grandfather could have given himself support, but if he hadn't had other people around him, he probably would have been pretty miserable and might not have made it. In crises like that, you can't be 100% independent. Yes, there are shades of grey. I can meet most, but not all of my own needs. No one can meet 100% of their own needs. And even if someday I might be able to, I can't at this moment, so telling me to do so and I'm just on my own and out of luck and deal with it seems pretty cruel.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Middlemarcher

For me, it would be important to talk (in person) about how she seems defensive to you, and to talk about your feelings of guilt and shame. The feelings are important--the guilt, the shame, the feeling that your needs are too much. Talking about this stuff with my T changed how I felt and reacted in conflict situations with other people (and yes, the way I felt and reacted with her often mirrored those situations).

I would be totally happy to do that if I trusted that she would respond well to me. But I don't. And frankly, she hasn't given me any reason to. What I really need while I'm expressing those needs is for her to reassure me that she's still going to be there for me and that it's okay to feel the way I'm feeling. She's not going to do that. She's instead going to remind me that if I'm going to feel guilty after sending her an email...then don't send her the email! Which makes a whole lot of sense, but also isn't anything I don't already know, and doesn't actually solve the problem.

[Freewilled]

Well that is some better than "you know better".....but I think it would be nice if you and your T could talk about why you are struggling so much with keeping boundaries. Like what does it mean to you when she says not to email her? How does that make you feel? How does it feel for you to sit with those feelings? When have you felt that way in the past? What can you do when you feel that way in between sessions?

These are questions I think would be helpful for her to ask you but even if she doesn't or won't, you could start that convo with her yourself....I think it's probably more important than strategizing about how to interact with your mom or your mentor, even if it doesn't feel that way to you right now. Because the relationship with your T is a microcosm of all of your other relationships. At least, that's the theory. Heck - I'm basically making my T talk about OUR "relationship" pretty much weekly lol I think it is central to my issues though....

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

Well that is some better than "you know better".....but I think it would be nice if you and your T could talk about why you are struggling so much with keeping boundaries. Like what does it mean to you when she says not to email her? How does that make you feel? How does it feel for you to sit with those feelings? When have you felt that way in the past? What can you do when you feel that way in between sessions?

These are questions I think would be helpful for her to ask you but even if she doesn't or won't, you could start that convo with her yourself....I think it's probably more important than strategizing about how to interact with your mom or your mentor, even if it doesn't feel that way to you right now. Because the relationship with your T is a microcosm of all of your other relationships. At least, that's the theory. Heck - I'm basically making my T talk about OUR "relationship" pretty much weekly lol I think it is central to my issues though....

Yes, that stuff is important, but I don't think it's AS important as the stuff actually going on in my real life. T and I talk our relationship a lot and it usually goes pretty badly and derails all other topics of conversation. When I'm experiencing real life crises, sitting and talking for fifty minutes about the relationship with T, which exists for fifty minutes a week and isn't causing her any distress, seems like a poor use of $110. I'd much rather talk about the relationships that exist for more than fifty minutes a week when those relationships are in peril and talk about my relationship with T when I'm calm enough to express myself and hear what she's saying instead of just crying.

Talking about our relationship today would have accomplished nothing because I wasn't in a place to hear what she was telling me, just in a place to argue with her about everything because my needs were too overwhelming to see past them. What I really needed do (which we didn't do) was strategize about what I can do this week to make those needs seem less overwhelming. That would have been a productive use of our session.

We've already discussed how I feel when I feel like I need to email her (like my needs are overwhelming and I'm trying to grab onto other people so I don't drown in them) and how it feels to me like abandonment or like she doesn't really care. There isn't anything she has said to me or will say to me that will make the situation better. She just says I have to sit with it and resist my impulses and use my other supports (ex. my friend, my mom, crisis lines). But the problem is, I've run out of other supports!

[Middlemarcher]

Originally Posted by Yearning0723

I would be totally happy to do that if I trusted that she would respond well to me. But I don't. And frankly, she hasn't given me any reason to. What I really need while I'm expressing those needs is for her to reassure me that she's still going to be there for me and that it's okay to feel the way I'm feeling. She's not going to do that. She's instead going to remind me that if I'm going to feel guilty after sending her an email...then don't send her the email! Which makes a whole lot of sense, but also isn't anything I don't already know, and doesn't actually solve the problem.

What about talking to her about this? It seems to me that that trust would be essential to establish in order for you to make progress in therapy. Could you talk to her about establishing that trust?