[guilloche]

[Trigger warning: The book is about *sui methods.]

I'm sorry, it's such a weird question...

If a client brings in a book that gives detailed information on methods of *sui, can a therapist legally confiscate it? I mean, that's still theft, right? They can't just take it and refuse to give it back?

Nobody has taken any books from me yet, but the topic (of *sui) came up at our last session (he brought it up, totally surprised me). I was thinking of bringing in the book, but I don't want to do that if he can take it... I feel like it's ridiculous to have to ask, but... it seems like how things work in therapy-world don't always match up with my expectations from the real-world...

Thanks...

[stopdog]

They can try whether legal or not. Why not just xerox the page/pages and take those in? I would urge caution altogether in terms of this sort of thing with therapists unless you are okay with the potential that the therapist will overreact.

[brillskep]

No, I've never heard of that happening, but it does depend on the laws where you live. I find the idea silly since you already have the book, you may have read it and you can buy another copy anytime. Even with items you might use to hurt yourself, such as a knife or weapon, the therapist would just try to talk you into leaving it with them (unless you're trying to kill yourself with it), but a book ... Anyway, I'm surprised to hear there even is such a book out there. My recommendation would be to express your concern and talk about it with your therapist before bringing the book, so that you'll feel safe. Maybe even do a little thinking on your own abouyt what's so frightening for you about having this book taken away - would it feel uncomfortable to have your therapist take it away (betrayal of trust, anger, fear, etc) or are you actually planning to use the methods in it? Your reasons can make quite a difference. I really hope you're okay and that you'll stay safe, and that you and your therapist will both make the decisions that will best serve your well-being.

[Depletion]

Taking the book just seems ineffective when I'm sure anyone could find similar information online.

[guilloche]

Thanks Stopdog and Brillskep -

Stopdog - Thanks, and no, I'm not comfortable with my T possibly overreacting. I don't *think* he would, but you're right, I don't think I want to risk it. I don't want to put myself in that situation.

Brillskep - Thanks. The book is actually out of print, so if I wanted to buy another copy, people are selling them for $100+ I believe online. But mostly I'd feel it was a violation of trust. And, I find the book strangely comforting. It's written from a very academic viewpoint and also talks about the possible negative outcomes of different methods... which generally sound awful enough to keep me safe.

I'm not in any danger at all right now, it was just something T said that seemed completely out of left field at the last session.

Thanks... I appreciate the feedback!

[guilloche]

Thanks Depletion - that makes sense, but sometimes Ts don't (make sense)!

I am wondering why you would want to take it to session, unless you want your therapist to talk you out of having the book. Otherwise, would it be enough just to say that since he raised the topic, that it's something you think about but are not planning? And then play it by ear as to whether or not you mention having a book about methods. If it's something that brings you comfort, it's worth talking about because maybe there are other ways to do that.

A good therapist will know that talking does not = doing.

[guilloche]

Thanks LicketySplit.

I know, it doesn't make sense. It was just such a weird last session. I was actually doing pretty well, I thought, talking about past therapy since I wanted to talk through some of that. Out of nowhere, he pops up with "so how often are you suicidal?" or something like that.

It felt very left field to me. Just totally surprised me, especially since I was blabbering along ok I thought. I sort of jumped and said something like, "What? Never? What gave you that idea?"

So now I feel like one of the things on the list for this week is to try to talk to him a little about where the reality is with that statement. One problem I have is that... I'm not sure how to explain it - when I'm feeling bad, it's very real. When I'm not, the feeling bad isn't real - I don't have a good sense of emotional consistency (?). Not sure that makes sense.

So one part of that is, that yes, I certainly HAVE felt that way sometimes, bad enough to have and read the book, but I don't right now. But "right now" for me tends to change fast.

And, I realize, none of this sounds reassuring... but I'm trying to figure out how to accurately convey something that I'm not sure I accurately understand to start with. You know, it's like, "if I'm not sure what the truth is, I can't give you an accurate picture of it."

It's very frustrating . I just feel like, in the long term, I might be better off if I clear this up with him now. I don't want to leave the "I'm happy and wonderful and never think about stuff like that" impression standing, b/c if I get to a place where I need to talk to him about it, I want him to be prepared... I don't want to have to catch him up while I'm feeling miserable and depressed, b/c I won't have the energy to do it then!

But everyone is right, I can catch him up plenty without showing the book, or even talking about it for now. Thanks...

I think that's a good idea. You'll get a good sense for how he responds to the topic. And since he raised it last week, it sounds like he's comfortable with it and does not freak out. Honestly, none I have talked to when I felt that way have overreacted. In your case, it might be worth finding out if there are situations that trigger those feelings, if it's purely physiological, or a combination.

[elaygee]

They cannot confiscate a book. They may try to talk you into leaving it there, but they can't take it. You're not a child. Its not a risk to them, or really an actual physical risk to you, thus they have no right. Just my thought?

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by guilloche

One problem I have is that... I'm not sure how to explain it - when I'm feeling bad, it's very real. When I'm not, the feeling bad isn't real - I don't have a good sense of emotional consistency (?). Not sure that makes sense.

This is how SUI thoughts are for me. Maybe it's the same for you?

First, there's a difference btwn thoughts and feelings. I have SUI everyday. When I'm not depressed, the thoughts are like an annoying fly. They come up and the quickly go away. I have no desire to act on them. When I'm depressed, however, it seems like the thoughts just won't go away. The depression gets so bad that the thoughts seem like a solution to escape the pain.

Does that resonate with you?

My Pdoc says I constantly have the thoughts because I've had severe depression for so long my brain is, in a sense, programed that way. My T says the thoughts exist because they provide me with comfort, control, and an escape. That doesn't mean I don't like the thoughts or don't want them. I don't. But I've conditioned myself over the years.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by guilloche

...If a client brings in a book that gives detailed information on methods of *sui, can a therapist legally confiscate it? I mean, that's still theft, right? They can't just take it and refuse to give it back?...

I don't think it would necessarily be theft if they take it. It can be done out of care and concern. But I don't imagine it would be like they suddenly grabbing the book and never giving it back. They might talk you into giving it to them. I think it all depends on the book, on your state of mind or your intentions, and all that. It's obviously your book, so that would not change. But if you keep going back to it and reading it and are close to trying out some method from the book, it totally makes sense that they would try to get the book away from you and try to work on what is going on with you at the moment before giving it back to you at a later time when you are feeling better. That's my take anyways.

[guilloche]

Hi ScarletPimpernel... It's more like, I can be in a very dark, depressed, lonely place thinking about it pretty seriously (but not to the point of taking any action). But, a couple hours later, something can happen to take me out of that place... and then I'm truly fine. If T asks me about being in that place and I'm not there while he's asking, I have trouble remembering/recreating the feelings accurately enough to give a good description. I'm more likely to say, "oh I was a little depressed, but it was nothing". Even if it was really ALOT more depressed than that. Not because I'm trying to lie or minimize, but because I'm not depressed *now*, so *then* doesn't really feel real.

I don't know how else to explain it. I think it might have to do with the dissociative stuff? And it makes therapy hard!

And I think if I ever got to the point that I was going to do something, I would not want to tell T. But I know not to say that. I think there is no way that conversation can end well, and it's so hypothetical and not relevant to today, that it doesn't seem to matter anyway.

Partless - thanks. Yeah I was imagining him asking to see it, to see what's inside. And then just refusing to give it back (as opposed to just grabbing it). Doesn't matter, I see that there's no reason to bring it, so there will be no confiscation attempts going on.

I am not looking forward to tomorrow's session. I have to talk to him about his assumption that "cut people out of my life" (not right), all this *sui stuff, and the thing that I think he was trying to guess (history of SI) that I referred to but wouldn't tell him what it was. So of course he wants to know now, and basically told me that "not telling your previous therapists things didn't work out so well for you in the past, so maybe you should consider that if you don't want to talk about something, it's a good indicator that you SHOULD". Too many hard topics for tomorrow!!!!

[junkDNA]

my T would prob encourage me to give it to him. hes come to my apartment before and taken my knives and things. it was part of a safety agreement though

[wotchermuggle]

I wanted to share with my therapist how I was feeling once, so I wrote it down because I couldn't say it out loud. I asked if I could have the paper back before I gave it to him. Of course, there was a conversation about why I wanted it back but he did give it back. Be prepared for your T to mentally take a picture though. My T stared down my letter very well before handing it back.

There is no harm in asking beforehand.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Guilloche - What you're describing sounds like Atypical Depression.

From: Treatments for Atypical Depression Symptoms
What Is Atypical Depression?
In addition to the core symptoms of depression, atypical depression is defined by the ability to feel better temporarily in response to a positive life event, plus any two of the following criteria: excessive sleep, overeating, a feeling of heaviness in the limbs and a sensitivity to rejection.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Originally Posted by guilloche

[Trigger warning: The book is about *sui methods.]

I'm sorry, it's such a weird question...

If a client brings in a book that gives detailed information on methods of *sui, can a therapist legally confiscate it? I mean, that's still theft, right? They can't just take it and refuse to give it back?

Nobody has taken any books from me yet, but the topic (of *sui) came up at our last session (he brought it up, totally surprised me). I was thinking of bringing in the book, but I don't want to do that if he can take it... I feel like it's ridiculous to have to ask, but... it seems like how things work in therapy-world don't always match up with my expectations from the real-world...

Thanks...

Much depends I think on which of you is the stronger - this conjures up quite a picture. No seriously, I am sure there are no legal grounds to confiscate the book, but if I were in their shoes I would suggest that you to discard it. I had something similar for the longest time, but I eventually grew away from that phase - the act of discarding it was quite liberating. Interesting that he brought the topic up and that you had this book - sounds like he put two and two together?

[Ad Intra]

I highly doubt it. He would probably talk to you about why you have the books and how much you have thought about how you would hurt yourself. You would probably be encouraged to put the books up until you feel better.

[SnakeCharmer]

Big Triggers ...

Guilloche, dear one, is it possible you want to take that book in and give it to your T, as a way of making things visible that have been hidden?

As Depletion said, in the day of the internet, the info is always right there. So taking the book in is symbolic of something ... something very important. It's a way of saying, God dang it, look at me, this is urgent. Pay attention right now. I'm not playing games. I need help. Now. Red Alert!

IMO, it's a very good idea to take the book in to your next appointment and not fuss if T wants to keep it for a while. Bringing it in is the important thing.

***

I've written before about the work Ive done with some fairly rough customers. I've had people show me books on sui and bombmaking, I've had them bring loaded guns and knives and ropes tied into nooses. One guy came to me and dropped $2000, a gun and box of bullets on my desk. While drunk, he'd taken the money and gun to perform a hit, that is, to kills someone as a hired hitman. He wasn't that kind of guy at all and when he sobered up he was appalled at what he'd agreed to.

I came to work one morning and found a noose tied to a branch of the big tree right outside my office window. A frantic search of the grounds turned up a scared, speechless, weeping man in the bushes. He couldn't tell or say the problem or ask for help with words, so he showed it, right out my window.

I confiscated the books and guns and bullets, ropes and knives. I once confiscated a whole gun collection from an outlaw biker dude. With receipts. Everything was given back eventually, usually to a family member or some other responsible person. A couple times people ended up in the hospital. Other times their families/friends/biker gang dudes were brought in for interventions. Several times, clients asked me to dispose of the ropes and razors. Which I did, far away from my stomping grounds, so they couldn't come back at night and dig through the dumpster.

The guy who brought me the money didn't want to kill anyone, but he was panicked and didn't know what to do. Scared spitless that he'd have to go through with it to save face. So I called the chief of police, someone I knew, right in front of the potential hitman, and told the chief what was about to go down, who the potential victim was and who did the hiring. Nobody died. Nobody went to jail The whole thing sputtered out. The guy who came to see me went into hiding and the cops interviewed and watched the guy who hired him. Nothing happened to the intended victim, except they got the divorce and property settlement they wanted. I gave that gun to the chief and held onto the money for six months and then the not-a-hitman guy and I gave it to a local charity.

People didn't bring me books on suicide and bomb making or bring me guns and knives and ropes or tell me about being hired to kill someone because they wanted to go through with it. The plunked a loaded gun down on my desk because they wanted me to stop them. They gave me knives and razors because they didn't want to keep using them on themselves or anyone else.

Some of this stuff scared the living bejesus out of me. But nobody ever died on my watch. Nobody. Not a single suicide. Over the years the most common cause of death in my clients has been old age. And that's the way I want it.

Nobody ever laid such concrete evidence down in front of me unless they wanted me to do something they didn't know how to do for themselves.

I confiscated a lot of stuff ... temporarily ... with a receipt book and a pdoc, lawyer and the chief of police on speed dial in case I didn't now what to do.

So, yeah, your pdoc or T might confiscate your book ... for a while. BFD. You wouldn't bring it in unless you wanted your T to do something. Something. Anything. Something important to help you decide to stay alive.

Guilloche, whatever is up with you, whatever you're feeling, please let your pdoc or T or someone who can help you know, even if you have to do it symbolically by plopping a shocking book down on the desk. The only thing that matters is you. YOU. Eff the damn book. That's nothing compared to you.

Sometimes non-verbal symbolic acts are the most important. A book or gun or knife dropped on my desk. I take a look. Pick it up, check the safety on the gun, open a drawer and set it inside, lock the drawer. Deep breath. Then we take it from there.

Guilloche, you'll be in my thoughts every single day. Remember, the book has little value. But you do. You matter. You do. I wish you the best.

[Partless]

SnakeCharmer, are you a T?

p.s. that stuff freaked me out, I can't imagine how you in person had felt about it!

[stopdog]

It is why I tell my clients to be very very circumspect in what they take in to show or what they tell a therapist. Don't gamble with those people more than you are willing to lose.
I would never ever let a therapist take anything from me - so I do not give them the chance to even try. They often think more of themselves and their powers and their idea they know better than a client than is warranted.
I would never take my copy of Final Exit, for example, to the appointment with me.

[SnakeCharmer]

Originally Posted by Partless

SnakeCharmer, are you a T?

I'm not a T. The best word to describe what I've done is advocacy for the powerless.

[Petra5ed]

No, they cant, but if the T feels you've crossed the line into showing intent to harm yourself they could have you involuntarily committed, in which case you would not be allowed to have the book for that time.

[Tangerine87]

I never share stuff like this with my therapist. Methods are a no no. They can surprise you and freak out any moment. Mine certainly did. Remember it's you versus them. They have more power. But idk maybe I'm just cynical

[guilloche]

Hmmm. Thanks everybody. And, please... please... I know you can't easily get emotions from written text, let me assure, I am not in a bad place at all. I've had a few days vacation, a little over-sugared (cheesecake and Trader Joes chocolate peanut butter cups!), plenty of rest and exercise, keeping busy with music and repairing my home computer. Stressed a bit about work and therapy, but not depressed at all. I'm about as dandy as I get, short of a longer vacation and a new job

ScarletP... thanks. That's interesting. I'm not sure if it's me or not. There are so many diagnoses... and they all overlap, and I haven't asked T for anything formal. I think he put down some sort of mild depression on my receipts (for getting funds out of my HSA), but before he setting it up, he asked me if I preferred to be "mildly depressed or anxious". I'm not really interested in talking diagnoses with him at this point, they all seem kind of muddy to me.

Man of ConstantSorry - "Much depends I think on which of you is the stronger - this conjures up quite a picture." LOL . Well, my T used to play football, and I'm a wimpy girl who walks for exercise. So normally, he would be stronger... but he had shoulder surgery not too long, so maybe I've got a fair shot?!

I don't think he put 2+2 together. He was guessing, because I kept mentioning that the last time I was in therapy, things were very bad, and when he asked why, I told him I wasn't ready to discuss it yet... I'm still working up to that! He jumped about 12 steps though. And, I guess I was mildly *sui at that time (that was ~15 years ago!), but really what I was referring to was the SI stuff. Which is why his questions about *sui totally surprised me.

SnakeCharmer - wow! It sounds like you, and your clients, have been through so much. Thank you for your kindness and thoughts of me, but really, I'm fine. Please don't worry. And, you've actually clarified very well I think what any T might think if any client showed up with something like this. I don't want to make my T think this is an emergency because it's not. Thanks.

Petra5ed & Tangerine - Yikes. I really don't want that. Especially since I do not feel like I'm in any danger at all right now. Thanks for the reminder, and thanks Tangerine, good point about "methods are a no no".

Thanks.... everyone. I actually feel like maybe at this point its more important to discuss the other stuff... the way the feelings are unreal when they're not happening now. I need to add that to the very long list of things to talk about. Tomorrow. Kind of not looking forward to another T session now, but I'm happy I am also on vacation tomorrow - so at least I don't have to leave T and head back to work.... *grateful* for that, at least.

*thanks*