[musinglizzy]

This was our latest discussion in therapy, and is one word I have a VERY difficult time saying or talking about, because it just seems so wrong.

How does one truly overcome a lifelong issue with jealousy? Because of things we should have had but didn't in childhood, following us up until now? I didn't have a loving home. I still miss that... and have a hard time with people who are close to their parents (even as an adult now, although I NEVER admit it!). Or..jealousy when I see a dad interacting with his kids (because 1. I don't know my dad, and 2. it turns out my hubby is not a loving, hands on father with our child, but I really thought he would be.

Or now....my marriage is a bit iffy, and he's not affectionate, involved in our lives, etc. It amazes me all of the husbands and wives who actually even go GROCERY SHOPPING together? WOW! I notice people holding hands, walking down the street. It's not an anger. It's a sadness. All of the above, I mean. I'm just very sad, and longing/longed for all of it. For me, and now for my son as well.

T says you get over it by talking about it, feeling it, accepting it, etc etc. But I feel like jealousy is such a horrible thought, and does not make me feel good as a person.

Please be easy on me...oh mi gosh this is like the hardest thing for me to talk about. I'm envious of those who had loving parents. I'm envious of those who have loving spouses. I'm envious of everything I see around me that relates to family. And I hate it.

[CANDC]

I am glad you are discussing this tough topic in therapy. It isn't easy.

Part of what fires my own rivalry with others is the belief that they have had less suffering than I had and they have had more love. Whether they did or not is not so important as whether I see the other person's yard and think that it is greener than mine. Then I feel left out and sad.

I am sorry you are finding things changing or not as you imagined they would be. Look at old couples. They fight, they squabble, they don't agree on much of anything. The only difference with the happy couples, they laugh about it.

It is hard to get over something as long as we really long for life to be different than it is. I guess accepting is difficult but it is only possible when I lower my expectations.

Maybe it is time to see if what the T says will work, will actually work.

[Partless]

musinglizzy, You mean jealousy in the sense of envy right, not romantic jealousy? Behind your envy I sense a kind of anger about unfairness that you did not get what others got, be it a nice home or good parents who were there for them. It's a terrible loss you have suffered.

But what concerns me is that you're beating yourself up about it. Are you not allowed to have such thoughts? Is a thirsty person in the desert not allowed to have thoughts of water or envy for those who get to drink water? Don't make things harder for yourself, you experienced difficulties in your life, nothing wrong with thoughts you have.

Musing, Partless has it covered I feel.

[musinglizzy]

Partless, are you my T in disguise? LOL. Actually, she used the analogy of kids with cake. Everyone gets one huge wedge of chocolate cake, except for one little girl who doesn't get any. She asked what I would tell her, would I tell her her feelings are wrong and to stop, or would I support her by saying it's really unfair and not right and I'm sorry. Well of course we both know the answer to that. I hate the word jealousy and won't even say it out loud....envy I will though. It's not so much anger, but sadness, yes, for what I never had. But at my age, I'd think I could just go on with my life and not think about that stuff anymore. I'm an adult with a family, a job, etc. I don't envy people so much in the way of money or who has the bigger TV or bigger house (my hubby is that way though), I envy those who can call on their parents, still, whenever they need them, and were brought up with love and respect, and people who have husbands who ask them how their day was. It's more the emotional aspect, not romantic. Honestly, if I were single, I don't think I would envy married people, but since I am married, and it's a pretty empty marriage, well, then, yes, I envy them. It seems like, in a way, history is repeating itself. I grew up with abuse, not much for love and support, and although my husband is not abusive in any way, I'm now married (15 years) to a man who is "not much for love and support." For me OR our son. I see male coworkers talk about their kids, sometimes interact with them, and I used to be sad for me, because I never knew my dad, but now it's more for our kid, who has a dad and lives with him but barely knows him. A coworker friend of mine has a 25 year old son who is suddenly experiencing panic attacks. He was home visiting, and he had one, and after having said attack was scared another would pop up. So he was panicking about the thought of panicking. She took the day off work just to be with him, to help keep him calm...and the next day, sat on the phone with him for an hour while he drove back home. Now that's so touching. That's love. That pangs my heart a little bit. I don't WANT to feel like this anymore. Like I told my T, I don't want to care anymore, or notice so much, you know? NOt saying that in a bad way. I know what love is....I learned to as I got older, and found good people in my life. I love my friends fiercely, and of course my son, he knows his mom is always here for him. I would be that same mom who would take the day off work to stay with my adult son who's scared of a panic attack coming on. But I detest that I still wish that for myself.

Yes, I beat myself up constantly, mostly for feelings. I grew up in a home where I wasn't allowed to show my feelings at all....I was punished. I'm most certainly not fearful of that anymore, and I know what I need to do....but conditioning my mind to think differently than it has my whole life is sure hard. I can talk about a lot of things. I can talk to my T about most things also. But whenever the subject even leans towards jealousy/envy, she knows she's hit home. I turn away, hide my face, and the shakes and the tears usually start. I just can't seem to get past this. Of course, I've just started asking for help in therapy. Just as I said above, I want to not care, or not notice, so much these wonderful, loving parts of lives.....or notice them and be touched by them, not cry inside. This was a few years ago, but I was at my son's school. His teacher was telling me what an amazing kid he is, and how this guy considers it such a gift to spend time with him. As soon as I was out those school doors, I was in tears. Because a man, someone else's father, was saying such good things about my kid, that I wish his own dad would recognize. Or a coworker. Who's young daughter sees him at work a lot. Seeing the interaction with them..... it hurts. Why couldn't I have been that 7 year old little girl? I just think it's pathetic that I notice too much. I hurt about too much. And it's not material things, it's matters of the heart. That is the one topic I've wanted to avoid....we've touched on it, but we've just now started really working through it. I honestly don't feel hopeful that I can learn NOT to feel this way.

I have posted about a lot of things on PC. But this, by far, is the hardest thing I'm talking about.

[unaluna]

Why are you looking at these moments negatively? I see you as sharing something with these people. Is the glass half empty or half full? They are powerful moments, yes, but arent you lucky to have them? Whats wrong with being emotional? Maybe im not reading it right, but it seems like you are more afraid of the emotion itself and are intellectualizing / assuming it to be envy and trying to stop it, instead of letting it ride out to its natural conclusion, which you seem to be afraid of, which is unknown? because having it means you risk losing it.

Thank you for this

Originally Posted by Partless

musinglizzy, You mean jealousy in the sense of envy right, not romantic jealousy? Behind your envy I sense a kind of anger about unfairness that you did not get what others got, be it a nice home or good parents who were there for them. It's a terrible loss you have suffered.

But what concerns me is that you're beating yourself up about it. Are you not allowed to have such thoughts? Is a thirsty person in the desert not allowed to have thoughts of water or envy for those who get to drink water? Don't make things harder for yourself, you experienced difficulties in your life, nothing wrong with thoughts you have.

Doesn't really sound like jealousy. Just an envy which seems perfectly normal. I have the family and friends and good job, etc., so I don't envy that in others. But I do envy families where everyone is physically healthy and they don't have the daily stress that comes with living with the reality of serious medical problems. What I would give to not have that worry in my life every single day! But I don't feel badly about myself for having those thoughts and feelings. They just are what they are and I figure most people out there have their own "stuff" that they also wish about their life.

(((musinglizzy)))

I am so sorry. I can really identify with your posts.

It is SO painful. One of the most painful aspects of trauma/neglect survivorship is feeling like an outsider, an alien, a non-human. I don't know if these feelings touch on that for you, but they have for me.

Partless put it so well. I think of it as for a child, if everyone around you was eating food all the time, while you were always hungry, it would affect you (anyone) in so many ways. Who wouldn't feel strong emotions in this situation? It's only normal. Eventually, it starts to erode self-worth. A person can start to think that they must be the only person not 'worth' feeding. If you are alone in it, how is a child, who has limited emotions, comprehend that it has nothing to do with them, their worth and what they deserve? For me, that's how the feelings get traced back to early years. Can you relate to any of this?

And sometimes I think the painful longings of wanting that for yourself are re-experiencing those emotions from childhood, of being hungry when everyone else around you (outside your family) is eating. Every family has problems, but these feelings , in my experience, come with severe deprivation of childhood needs and complete lack of parenting and no sense of normalcy in the household where I grew up.

It hurts. And it's normal reaction to an abnormal situation, I believe.

(((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) you are very brave to share this here such a hard topic that seems so many can identify with, kudos to you♥♥♥

Everyone has hurt and pain and suffering in their life. Even people who appear to be "normal." Even families who appear to be loving and functional. There are probably people who look at you and your life and feel envious or jealous or whatever because they don't know your full story and how much you've suffered.

[musinglizzy]

Thank you, everyone, for being so understanding and trying to help me not be so hard on myself...it's hard. It took me 9 months to really bring this up in therapy.... (with twice a week sessions!)...and I know it will take some time to really work through it.

And yes, I'm quite aware of that puzzle bug.

I agree with you Puzzle, and I hope i'm not out of place responding to this on musing's thread ( I will delete if it's not welcome), but if I told myself this, I'd really be minimizing my experience and even being hard on myself, thinking--if everyone has pain and suffering and can live fulfilling lives (or perhaps appear to), I must be even more defective if I cannot do this (function even enough to do everyday tasks).

In my experience, more people had 'good enough parenting' than not. I think the degree of pain in adulthood is often correlated with the degree of neglect and emotional and other abuse, especially during pre-verbal years. And the intensity of the transference related to painful attachments with a therapist can correlate with the degree of unmet needs experienced in early childhood.

For example, feeling literally like I'm going to die when threatened by separation from my therapist. It is incapacitating. I think the kind of feelings conveyed by the op can also be so intense, and even though she may have not referred to it like this, these feelings are incapacitating for some. The re-experiencing I have is like PTSD flashbacks. I FEEL those life and death emotions that were previously dissociated. With dissociation, which often occurs with extreme neglect and abuse, those feeling memories are sort of trapped in a part of the brain, but later emerge in treatment with a therapist in the attachment context. I think that goes beyond 'everyone gets hurt'. Being incapacitated by emotional flashbacks of dissociated pain is not something everyone has to go through. The younger you dissociate, the more intensely these painful flashbacks can be.

That's how some feel loss, which is perhaps how you might have felt with your separation from your therapist? Ok, this is getting tangential. Just saying, thinking of it in these terms can be unhealthy for some as it is sometimes deemed minimizing. That's how it is for me, anyway. I used to say that to myself, now I own my pain and am trying to work through it and give it the attention it deserves. That's the only way I know once Pandora's box has been opened.

Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987

Everyone has hurt and pain and suffering in their life. Even people who appear to be "normal." Even families who appear to be loving and functional. There are probably people who look at you and your life and feel envious or jealous or whatever because they don't know your full story and how much you've suffered.

I reread my comment and I think it sounds insensitive. I did not intend to come across that way. I apologize. I would remove it but you already saw it and responded and someone else did to.

I am very sorry.

I had a horrible childhood. Two therapists have told me it was the worst they've ever heard of (not helpful but whatever) and I know how it feels to wish and want for something different. I am sorry. I don't think i ever really envied others though. I just saw my life as something I deserve.

[musinglizzy]

Thanks for your clarification puzzlebug. I appreciate it!

Ugh. I can be a idiot and I am sorry. I am going to shut up for awhile. LOL. Too much time on my hands today.

Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987

Ugh. I can be a idiot and I am sorry. I am going to shut up for awhile. LOL. Too much time on my hands today.

You're not an idiot.

[musinglizzy]

No worries, and no, you're not an idiot.

[archipelago]

Though I don't at face value feel envy that much, I do understand. I have felt just anguish when seeing or knowing about what appears to be everything positive that I didn't have. I suppose it is envy after all, though my experience of this is at the level of pain and hurt, with some sadness about how unfair things are.

Once I had a dream about going from house to house seeing everyone inside surrounded by loved ones and having a big table of food and warmth. In the dream, my former therapist was alongside me. When I told him the dream, he remarked on how it was about our mutual appreciation for good food. Wrong answer. When I told him that he was free in the dream to go inside but I wasn't, he was clueless. He had never experienced such radical alienation and wasn't able to understand. That is why he is a former therapist.

My current therapist does get it and sees this as a major theme of my foundation so likely to come up in the present. He frames it in terms of deprivation and aloneness and tries to be someone who is willing to be there. He often says, you come by that honestly, meaning that makes perfect sense given all you have been through as well as other validating things.

If you come by something honestly, that doesn't mean you want it or it's okay, but it does mean that there is no reason to push it away or judge yourself for it. That is a step toward acceptance, which in some cases is about all we can do, at least at first, in getting some peace with an issue. In other words, sometimes there are things we can't change readily, but we can change our acceptance or attitude about it and there is relief in that by itself.

Once I read a phrase, "Give up all hope for a better past." I think it is from a poet, but it was in a funny horoscope. I think sadly but also in some sense very humanly we are often engaged with the project of trying to change our pasts. It took a while to let that go and realize I only can alter the present, and perhaps hopes for the future. Strangely enough when I moved forward, the past started becoming available as something I could revise. Humans are so curious.

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987

Ugh. I can be a idiot and I am sorry. I am going to shut up for awhile. LOL. Too much time on my hands today.

Stop it!! For what it is worth, I totally understood what you meant in your post, so you are not an idiot!!

As I read the OP's post, I was glad not to feel jealousy over families/parents—not because mine were great, but because they were so hideous that I have little to no concept of those roles and therefore don't miss them; however, when I started thinking about jealousy with regard to professionals in my field, I totally got it. It is embarrassing to admit. Good for you, musinglizzy for getting to this issue in therapy. It's a horrible feeling and, in a way, is shame inducing. So while the content is different, I totally can relate to the concept.

[musinglizzy]

Thanks....it was about the most embarrassing thing I could admit. At my age.....

[musinglizzy]

After such a hard session....and thinking about it all weekend... trying to prepare for today's (Monday's) session....she canceled. Again. She is having teenage daughter issues. She cancels her days to be with her through this. That's almost triggering. Pathetic as it may be.

I'm really sorry she cancelled on you, musinglizzy. That must be very difficult, especially given what you are srtuggling with.

I get jealous of people getting things that I can never have. At 42, I think I should not feel that way - but I do.

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by Mastodon

I'm really sorry she cancelled on you, musinglizzy. That must be very difficult, especially given what you are srtuggling with.

I get jealous of people getting things that I can never have. At 42, I think I should not feel that way - but I do.

Thanks Mastodon. I'm 40, I agree. What I'm jealous of isn't material things...it's, well...matters of the heart, I guess.

This cancelation is making me rethink staying. Yet then I feel selfish, childish, whatever. She's having issues with her teenager. Issues that have caused canceled sessions, shortened sessions, delayed sessions, sessions with phone call interruption, and sessions with "do you mind if I Email my daughter's doctor quick?" etc etc.

With my insecurity and envy issues, why the hell is it always during MY sessions? Or, perhaps, it happens more often than I think. I just re-read IRL's "If there Be None posting...."

I've not slept tonight.... just thinkin. 'Bout lots of things, including this.