Something T said about herself bothers me

When I was talking to my T last session about feeling attracted to her, and how I get scared when she looks good because it reminds of the popular kids at school who didn't have anything to do with me, she asked: " Can't I be attractive AND nice? Then she said " I think I am".

It seems a little conceited for someone to admit they are attractive. Or is that just confidence? I admire my T for being confident about her appearance. I wish I felt that way about myself. I'm jealous of her.

I don't think I used the word attractive in my session. You can be attracted to someone who is not attractive, can't you? But T said that she is attractive! The point is that good looks and niceness can exist together, and I got that. What she said still bothers me, though!

:uts on therapist hat::

Why do you think it bothers you?

I don't think it is conceited. I think a lot of people present themselves in a way they consider to be attractive - and the therapist was simply acknowledging it. I think women far too often absorb a message that thinking well of themselves is wrong and bad and conceited and so forth. And sometimes it is so ingrained that when another woman does not act as though she has absorbed such damaging messages, it can be threatening and something others try to squash. Women do get to be confident and think well of their appearance and their abilities.
I think if you are attracted to someone - then you do find them attractive in some sense.

I think you can call yourself attractive without being conceited. You seem to really analyze everything T says to you and pick at it. Why is that? Why would it bother you if she was asking why she couldn't be attractive AND nice?

Would it bother you if she told you that she was intelligent? Or highly accomplished? Or a good singer? Or a great artist? Or is it just calling herself attractive that bothers you?

For that matter, would it bother you if I told you I was attractive? Or just your T?

It's called self-confidence, Rainbow; it isn't conceit.

I could not be attracted to someone who isn't attractive. But attractiveness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. There is no objective standard for what or who is attractive. Self-confidence can be a very attractive quality.

I think (and this is based on ME only of course) that it can be difficult to NOT think someone is conceited who considers themselves attractive, because until this current time in my life I never had the slightest bit of self-esteem and perceived that anything else was conceit, only because I had no inkling of what it was to love yourself in a healthy way. I don't know if that makes any sense at all but I tried.

Because I'm jealous! I want to be able to say I'm attractive but I'd have to be thinner and wear makeup so I don't think it's gonna happen.

Thank you, stopdog. You make a lot of sense.

I like to analyze what my T says. I'm not sure why but starting threads about her makes me feel closer to her when I'm between sessions and I miss her. Besides, IG DOES bother me. It makes me angry and jealous!

Yes, they would all bother me. I don't like when people talk about how good they are at something. Let their actions speak for themselves. I have trouble saying positive things about myself. You aren't my T so it doesn't matter so much to me. When someone says that they are confident to me or
These answers are different from what I expected. Thank you.

Yes, I do think I'm attracted to my T's self- confidence.

Yeah, that's the way I feel. Thanks.

No, I find it refreshing. My mum (and her mum) where brought up not to say anything positive about their looks/abilities - action speak louder than words and so on... It was actually drilled into them to say the opposites (as a sign of modesty )
I think you can be atractive even with some extra pounds, without makeup... Not everybody has to look the same, Western society induced way to be able to like themselves.
The more I like/know some person the more I consider them to be attractive (man of woman alike). I know it sounds like a total cliché but that's the way it works with me (and i doubt I am the only one)

I think what we find "attractive" is a personal thing and you find T attractive and T finds T attractive but you each may mean different things or find different things that attract you? I think your T was addressing that you compared your view of attraction to negatives in what you saw with popular girls in school and that's not very attractive? :-)

Like "nice", "attractive" is not really a useful word because it is so generic and squishy. But one can take advantage of that by seeing its squishiness and exploring the broad range like you are doing? You see shallow, petty high school girls and your T sees herself, how interesting? What would the world be like if you saw yourself as attractive?

I agree that "attractive" isn't a very well-defined word. I had a friend in college who used to make me laugh when he described an attractive woman as "one who does the most with what she has." That is certainly one way of being attractive.

Also, maybe your therapist was saying "you think I'm attractive - I think I'm nice."

Or maybe it bothers you when someone claims a positive quality for themselves? If it does, I don't know that that's necessarily bad. If you have been brought up to think that people should be modest and not make those claims for themselves, maybe that's why it bothered you. Only you know why it bothered you - or can discover why if you don't know.

I was just imagining how I'd feel if my therapist said the same thing. I think it might bother me a little, to be honest. It would feel like she was shifting the emphasis to herself too much. It has more to do with the therapist/client relationship than with any problem I have with women who think they are attractive.

I think that self-confidence in one's appearance is an extremely positive trait. For one thing, it frees up lots of energy that would otherwise be spent on worrying and anxiety about "How do I look?" and "How do people think I look?"

That's the best definition of being attractive I've heard

I have the same self body image that you do. The only difference is I realize I do have a choice. So now I am making healthier food choices which is allowing me to lose weight. Some days I do wear makeup. It literally takes me one minute to put some on. I hear about these people who spend an hour putting on makeup. Idk if they are constructing a new face or what but it's crazy. You have a choice. If you want to change the first thing to do is accept that you are not happy with your body image now and realize this does not always have to be the case. You have a choice. First step: accepting that you are unhappy with where you are at right now. Step two: understanding you have a choice to change. It should be your choice, no one else should be influencing this. Step three: making a plan to help you achieve your goal. Step four: let go of all the excuses and work on achieving your goal ( in a healthy manner ). Idk how much you have to lose but celebrate little successes along the way.

I wonder if it triggers the other feelings you may have toward T? The feelings where it's not about her being attractive and nice. But the parts that feel monstrous?
Faced with those we desperately trying to get back the feelings that make us feel good??

I kind of see where your feelings come from
Associating good looks with danger and niceness with average looks. I can't explain now, too early in the morning but perhaps some stereotype is in place....

Well first of all I am often attracted to people who aren't particularly attractive physically speaking. Attraction comes from within for me . Height weight and hair color don't mean anything. And looks fade. So you can be attracted to her regardless

Second of all I see no problem with people saying they are attractive. I was raised in a culture where you don't suppose to praise yourself. I believe though it does people no good and I find no shame saying that I am attractive, and if someone asks I have no issues just saying that. It is damn true! Lol Now am I drop dead gorgeous NO Lol but darn good looking lol in fact I think most if not all people are attractive one way or the other!

I see no issue saying that I am nice either lol it is ok to be honest as long as we remain humble

Yes people could be nice and attractive. Most people are nice and most are attractive in at least some sense.

I do see though why you feel how you feel.

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Yes! that's because, cliche or no, each one of us is SO much more than just our physical appearance..... it has taken a long time for me to learn that that applies to me as well... to be able to see myself as more than my outside... i am overweight and I don't wear makeup but I have gotten to know my real Self and she is beautiful and when I look in the mirror now, in my 50's, for the first time in my life, I can smile and see a beautiful woman looking back at me. This is probably the biggest miracle that therapy has worked for me.

The funny thing is I wrote about my T setting me the challenge to say something nice about myself and it was tough, yet so many people here on PC encouraged me to come up with something I like about me. It seems if T likes something about herself she may be called conceited. This is definitely a good avenue to explore, especially the jealousy.

I completely agree that this is a great example of women internalizing a message that to find herself attractive, smart, or really anything positive is not acceptable. Or if she does, that she much under no circumstances assert that opinion. And any other woman who does so is doing the wrong thing.

This also reminds me, though, of other threads you've started wondering how to get some of the good feelings you get when someone else compliments your art without relying on other people. It does seem to me that the way you were raised has really sabotaged your ability to find satisfaction and gain confidence from within. (That's something I've personally struggled with -- although oddly, even though I was raised not to boast about my achievements, I also got in trouble from my mother because all my report cards as a child highlighted problems with self-confidence. So I was neither humble enough nor confident enough. I really couldn't win.)

It is possible to talk about one's strengths in a way that can feel hurtful to others... sometimes that means someone is stepping over the line. I don't see that happening here, though. I see T making a statement that isn't even really about her -- it's about how you perceive her -- and your reaction to it is one that's going to be really important hash out. It's like when I get slightly annoyed when friends on Facebook who had babies around the same time I did start posting about how much weight they lost or how many times they ran last week. Sure, some of them do it in an obnoxious way, which is not really cool, but others really are just posting because they're happy with themselves and feeling good. *I* feel jealous and annoyed because *I* want to lose more weight, and get more exercise. That's on me.

It does sound conceited, but I don't think she IS conceited. We (society) mostly frown on women who say they are attractive. Crazy, I think. We're supposed to look as attractive as possible, but no one can admit it or they're conceited. (I am NOT chastising you at all.)

I know I am generalizing and this of course does not apply to everyone.

I'm trying to think of any friend, student, coworker, family member saying (or even admitting truthfully) that they are attractive. Can't think of even one instance. It's fairly unusual in our culture. So maybe the T was trying to model self confidence. Or if she does actively think herself attractive, it might have been the result of much inner work to say that aloud.

First, I really like what you've shared about your therapist. She sounds thoughtful and accepting. The way I interpret her comments is that she was more focused on your perception of her, than her own perception, and was asking you to consider that two things you don't think can go together, can (and do) go together.

It would be like telling her you think she's really wealthy and it makes you feel insecure because wealthy people are snobs. And she says can't she be wealthy and nice? Adding, that she thinks so...in other words, telling you that she thinks it's possible for the two concepts to co-exist. It's a finer point than her saying she thinks she's attractive.

i thought the emphasis was on the "and nice" aspect also.

Maybe your t was trying to normalize your feelings for her because you said you found her attractive. In other words, by saying she thinks she is attractive too, she's making the point that it's normal for people to notice if someone is attractive or not. I could be wrong though. . .

I find that the more I know someone, the less attention I pay to their looks. But I don't become attracted to them in a physical sense. I'm talking about being attractive physically. Or is that what you mean?

Thanks, Perna. I agree that attractive is a generic word. I was using it in a couple of ways. First, I'm attracted to T's looks. Two, women who look attractive aren't always nice. I realize my faulty reasoning. T was saying how someone can be both. I agree. It's when she said "I think I am" that I started thinking about confidence vs conceit.

Thank you. I like your friend's definition of attractive. I agree with it. I do think I have pretty features but I don't make myself look attractive. I want to be confident like my T is. I admire her and am jealous too. I'm going to talk about it in my next session.

I agree!

Thank you! It's all good advice. I'm trying to lose weight but not hard enough, apparently. Exercising too.

Well, my being attracted to her is kind of upsetting to me. Her saying she is attractive dies add another strange element, like she's acknowledging why I feel that way. Idk.

Thanks, divine. Yes, I do think it's a stereotype that you can't be nice AND attractive. My T was trying to dispel that for me. I have my own definition of attractive, and finding my T attractive is complicated because I like her so much. I think I'm nice but not attractive, though I think I'm pretty. It's a complicated subject!

Wow!!! I'm so impressed with your growth! I hope I can start to feel that way about myself too. Thank you.

Thanks, Jane. Yes, stuff to explore.

Thanks, Sally. You have such a good memory, about my wanting to feel good about my artwork without needing to hear it from others. It's all about lacking self-confidence. I agree it's about how I perceive my T. I have to talk about it more with her, but I get so embarrassed! These are things I never talked about with any other T!

I agree. My T isn't conceited. She just has healthy self-esteem and I don't.