What if...

Right, and I now find it harder to trust in general. I think that is the dilemma, that when I need help most, my ability to seek it out has been impaired. Based on what I have read, this is typical of those hurt by therapy.

My lesson, maybe, is that for so long I have been looking to external authority for answers, because I don't trust myself. That is the fallacy. Was just watching a YT of a Psychologist and Buddhist author/teacher. She was insightful and smart, and the audience sat in rapt attention. But any of us is capable of insight and understanding on a deep level, it's just that we defer to people in authority because of the privileged position they have.

Maybe it sounds arrogant, but I see little reason why my T and I could not have switched places.

I used to think this about my ts. I have read a lot of psychology. Then my current t asked me to help him set up something on his computer. I worked in computers for 30 years. He was SOOOO SLOOOOW, asking me what and why i was doing stuff - all of a sudden i realized, i probably look as backwards about psychology to him, as he looks capable of computers to me.

I won fifty bucks the first time i bet a square in a football pool at work, back in the 1970's. I never bet a pool again! If you never try t again, it will be like youre stuck in the seventies. No one wants that! what if the wright brothers had your attitude?

Sorry to just butt in here without reading all the prior posts, but I was just curious, have you considered going back to your old therapist? Is it possible for you to do that... go back to the one you love? It might be worth processing it with her, is she not willing to do that? Just curious... sorry you're in so much pain. Sometimes I feel like "the transference" is really just me taking all of my past hurts and turning them into a very painful unrequited love for my therapist. It's like I had all these problems, and now I just have one problem, and that is loving my unavailable therapist. I don't know why this is, it's so ****ing weird.

[QUOTE=BudFox
My lesson, maybe, is that for so long I have been looking to external authority for answers, because I don't trust myself. That is the fallacy. Was just watching a YT of a Psychologist and Buddhist author/teacher. She was insightful and smart, and the audience sat in rapt attention. But any of us is capable of insight and understanding on a deep level, it's just that we defer to people in authority because of the privileged position they have.

Maybe it sounds arrogant, but I see little reason why my T and I could not have switched places.[/QUOTE]

I agree a client and a therapist can switch places. When those guys are the client they switch places. I don't see them as an authority-certainly not on me.

My T left me at the worst time of my life. He betrayed me for his own enjoyment so he could flirt with someone else. He cut me down, shut me down and left me to die after having made me believe in him.

He infiltrated my personal life outside of the therapy room. How dare he do such a thing!! He breached my confidentiality and told people I barely knew MY PERSONAL INTIMATE DETAILS OF MY LIFE. They ate it up and spread the gossip to everyone they knew.

MY VERY SPECIAL T TURNED HIS BACK ON ME! I was at the end of my rope and instead of reeling me in he let go for me to drown. That's what he really thought of me. Anyone else in my position would have thought I could trust him too.

He turned people in my everyday life against me. He ruined my reputation and career of over 30 yrs. I don't have much else and he took that away from me. What else is there when you have been embarrassed in front of people you see every day?? How could he humiliate me like that?? How am I supposed to go on? I can never regain what he took from me.

I think about why he would hurt me so much every day. I don't have an answer. The hurt is with me all day long. No one is helping me.

I worked with Patricia McConnell, she's local.

Those what ifs left me a broken person for many, many years. Then I dared try again with their profession, and I hit the lottery. I hope there will be more and more lottery winners out there, despite all the rotten apples under the scratch offs.

Our state lottery used to advertise, "if you dont play, you cant win." I closed my heart to love because it hurt too much, so i do understand. But i wish i had been successful at getting help much earlier in my life. Still, better late than never.

I've tried or interviewed (in person) 10 therapists in the past 6 months and spoke to several others on the phone. So have certainly tried again.

Some of these Ts invalidated or denied my claims of harm from therapy. So for me it's not a question of one bad apple, more to do with systemic problems.

My other point is that for some of us a betrayal in this context alters basic relationship dynamics, and for sure one's ability to trust therapy.

I hear you hankster. I wish I had had the right kind of help when I was younger, decades disappeared, yet I jump for joy for what I have now.

But to me the difference is that proficiency with computers is a technical skill that could be learned by nearly anyone, while clinical psychotherapy is not, it is more art than science, and in my opinion does not necessarily have much to do with book learning. Can you learn empathy, patience, insight, selflessness from books? I would say probably not, and so why could my T and I not switch places?

It's the grieving process. For some it takes longer, for others shorter.

I got lucky again finding a new T. It's only been a month or so with her, but I like her. I don't think she completely believed me about my ex-T abandoning me at first. But I think she believes me now after getting conflicting information firsthand. She did recognize the pain I was in, and that was enough validation to continue with her.

I hope that you find a good T soon. Trust will take time whether you have been hurt or not, so be patient with yourself. And just remember that a new T is not ex-T, so try not to judge the new one based off the old.

One thing that I'm doing that's helping is addressing all my fears at the start. We have gone over different termination scenarios, what I would like, and what she can do. We even went over a scenario where I flip out and yell at her I am constantly bringing up the trust issues (i.e. if she decides I need "more support", hospitalization, calling the police, etc.). It helps her too.

My advice is simply to not give up. And when you find a new T you like, be honest and open about your fears from the start.

Thank you for asking.

I have tried from many different angles to seek reconciliation, proper closure, and a chance to speak the truth. She refuses to even have a dialog. She talked to me once on the phone, but after that increasing resistance and hostility, then she just ignored me (even though I told her I was spiraling).

You have hit on a major aspect of the pain for me -- very painful unrequited love. And applying the "transference" label was for me pathologizing and isolating (because it implied it was entirely a one way street), but it also trivialized my intense feelings and deep longings. But yes, this feeling that you describe is brutal and one must ask whether any of this healthy.

A lot of people are empathic, patient, insightful, and selfless. That doesn't make them fit to be a T. And not all Ts have those qualities and they can still be good Ts. And to expect someone to have those qualities 100% of the time is idealistic. We're human, we mess up. We're not perfect, none of us. That's black and white thinking.

If you can turn the tables, switch places, then why do you need a T. Therapy is more than having qualities. It's also about the relationship.

Why do I need a T... indeed that is the question. I don't know that I do.

If it is the relationship, then why not seek to dissolve the power imbalance and the hierarchy? This is idealistic perhaps and would result in something other than therapy, but I am just asking the question (a la Jeffrey Masson, the therapy critic).

The famous psychoanalyst Ferenczi said analysts must face the hypocrisy of the process and admit that the patient knows more about the truth than does the analyst.

I agree with the bolded. Only you know yourself best. I actually told that to new T last week

As for why the imbalance, well, I'm not able to articulate that well enough, so I let someone else give that one a shot. But I too wish it was more balanced. I had a close relationship with a college counselor of mine. The relationship was just as supportive and was much more balanced (though she still had more "power" in the relationship). But I also find saftey in the imbalance of the therapeutic relationship. I don't want an actual friendship, so the boundaries keep the relationship structured for me.

Ok, maybe the safety you mention is due to the parental nature of it. I can see that. It means you can just feel and not have to worry about other concerns.

Ferenczi, however, cautioned that this infantilizes patients and it becomes impossible for the patient to detach themselves.

BTW, Ferenczi also advocated for the patient being given the chance to analyze the analyst, in order to remove the power imbalance.

I would get a new therapist and understand that what I put into therapy is what I get out of it. It the other person fails me, that is their loss. I have my life to move on with. Ultimately, my feelings are my own to take care of.

You ask why is the hierarchy needed. Its needed because: i understand your point of view, i have experienced your point of view, i have studied your point of view. But you are discovering your point of view for the first time, for you. Do i now have to forget everything i know and defer to you?

What if you say the world is flat, and it hurts your feelings if i disagree. Thats kind of how i feel about transference. Not just from you - just about EVERYBODY on PC disagrees with me about transference, btw! I let it go here - not my problem. But maybe that was a big enough problem for your t, that she felt you two couldnt work successfully together. You cant let it go, but neither could she. But for her, its like saying the world is flat.

Youre negating her world. Thats pretty hostile. Which btw is my brother's favorite expression, and i probably use it too much too. Therapy is not about winning over the one other person, the t. It is more about finding out what stands between you and other people, and t is just a stand-in.

I debated whether or not to answer. I like Ferenczi too! I am not trying to CONVINCE you. I think you ask good questions. This is how i see the answers.

Budfox quote, "If it is the relationship, then why not seek to dissolve the power imbalance and the hierarchy? This is idealistic perhaps and would result in something other than therapy."

My therapist never saw our relationship as an imbalance of power, though I did early on.
What she did was to assure me that no matter what situation I could hold my own, even when it came to dealing with her. I am just as good – I am enough. This does not mean that I possessed the same skills as her or anyone else. But, I have value and worth despite what or who is front of me. Even, though professionals have certain knowledge, it does not necessarily mean they have the right answers for me or anyone else or their answers are right for that moment.

My therapist worked hard to prove their was no power of imbalance, and WE were successful. Maybe, that is why our friendship worked after the fact. When in her presence or anyone else's I no longer become the emperor that realizes he is as naked as the day he was born.

I am rhetorically speaking the above.

I think sometimes the problem is that when clients see the naked emperor therapist - it is distressing and causes them to question themselves rather than the therapist. The confusion can be compounded when the therapist seems also unaware they have no clothes on.

I hadn't thought of it that way. I do understand what you mean.

thx

The T's job is to handle transference or any other feelings that arise. If she cannot, that should be somehow made clear BEFORE the client goes 6 months down the path of intense and painful work that replayed old trauma and deep pain, left it unresolved, then she bolted, and then ultimately ignored my requests for help. This is a massive failure. And if she cannot, given how prevalent transference seems to be, maybe she should stop practicing.

But even worse, she subtly blamed me over and over and over, while never admitting fault nor weakness nor even fully acknowledging the harm done. Ferenczi said it is critical for the T to be an authority figure who, perhaps for the first time, admits fault to the client face to face.

Your knee-jerk defense of the T and the ease with which you lay judgement on me bring to mind a cult.

I am hyper sensitive about this, especially today for some reason, so I apologize in advance… but what you said above is utter excrement.

You have no idea what I put into therapy. I gave it everything I had. Nearly destroyed me.

Can someone tell me how to close this thread? I seem to have entered the judgment zone. As someone said in another forum, covert shame is manifesting...

There does tend to be a LOT of blaming of the client here on this forum. I put seven years into therapy (I worked HARD) and I so deeply regret all of it now.

Therapy is cult-like. AND if we were able to solve these issues on our own we wouldn't have gone into therapy. Or at least I wouldn't have.

EDITED TO ADD:

I do think most people mean well, but it hurts and feels shaming sometimes.