[precaryous]

Sometime during your training, do you take an ethics class that specifically discuses the ethical/legal aspects of therapist/patient intimacies including therapist/patient sex?
Is this a mandatory class?

How is the topic presented in the student's curriculum? How well is it covered?
Do you listen to a lecture? Do you learn about Hippocrates? Is the issue only covered in the assigned reading? Do you watch a video about the topic? Are you able to ask questions in class? Have you had speakers do a presentation about what it is like to be a survivor of therapist/patient exploitation/intimacies? Do you get into the legal/criminal aspects of it at all?
Are there lectures about dual relationships?

I am having flashbacks of the deposition when perppsychiatrist was asked if he had been taught in medical school that it was wrong to have sex with patients....and he answered, no, he had never taken any classes like that.

[boredporcupine]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure your ex-psychiatrist was full of sh**. Everyone in a mental health or medical profession knows you're not supposed to have sex with clients. It's like the ONLY rule that has absolutely no exceptions. What he claimed is like somehow getting your driver's license without knowing that you are supposed to stop at a red light.

[junkDNA]

i agree. i know that it is a class all therapists learn about. but im not sure about psychiatrists. but i would assume so. my current T told me that all Ts , even older ones, are taught this in school

My therapist very openly and proactively discussed his professional ethics. It wasn't even something I had to ask about. I really respected his directness about this.

[msjblonde]

I am not a T, but I am a medical professional. I can tell you this, every medical professional has to take classes on ethics. I don't recall specifically being told not to have sex with clients but the bedrock of medical ethics is Nonmaleficence: “First, do no harm” Do not have sex with the client is as obvious to any professional and as unnecessary to specifically say as it would be to state do not punch the client in the face. No one is going to list every single possible variation of what could be considered harm, it is left to the judgement of the professional as a professional but also as a human being. What he did to you was wrong on both counts.

[Chummy]

Whether he has been thaught it or not, he should know it's not done to have sex wit a patient/client. I knew it would not be legal for a T or pdoc to have sex with a patient before I had ever read or be told about it. T me it's a kind of common sence.
My T knows it's not legal. I don't know about pdoc, but I think he also knows it's not legal.

But if it isn't being taught, it sure needs to be taught.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by precaryous

I am having flashbacks of the deposition when perppsychiatrist was asked if he had been taught in medical school that it was wrong to have sex with patients....and he answered, no, he had never taken any classes like that.

I'm having a feeling this person was playing with words, lawyers are good at that and teach their client how to answer questions in most infuriatingly annoying manner that is not exactly a lie nor complete truth.

Primum non nocere, first do no harm, they're taught that, it's common sense too. What's next, a therapist or physicians smacking somebody on their head with the DSM and complaining, "No, they did not say specifically not to hit one's patient with the DSM....look right here, it's not in my school notes!"

I'm real sick of irresponsible health professionals and their more irresponsible lawyers, reminds me of my own complaint about my ex-T....

[Ad Intra]

My old T was very ethical. Most professions have a code of ethics to begin with. I just got my BSW (bachelor's in social work) and in every class we talked about ethics. As a matter of fact my first social work class was 50% ethics. And this was approved though the Council on Social Work Education, the big dog social work programs answer to.

I am doing two t training say the moment and one course has a whole module on ethics that we read, watch clips and have experiential learning for ethics, the other course has nothing specifically dedicated to it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[precaryous]

The psychiatrist probably lied in his deposition...that wouldn't shock me. I don't understand why he lied about it, though, because he claimed we were never intimate.
Glad to read ethics is important in the curriculum.
Im feeling so angry, though. This frustrated.powerless.rage. is not leading my thoughts to good places.

I can't hurt him. I can't right the wrong. There is no closure...never will be.
#StillTryingToFigureThisCrapOut

[ThisWayOut]

In all the classes I took, ethics was mentioned, and many specifically mentioned the ethical boundary of being intimate with clients. In one, it was actually likened to child/elder abuse in that a client/patient is not considered able to "give consent" due to the nature of the realtionship. I heard this in both grad & undergrad, as well as multiple internships.

I'm sorry he is so irresponsible and conniving. Sending much love.

[boredporcupine]

Im feeling so angry, though. This frustrated.powerless.rage. is not leading my thoughts to good places.

I can't hurt him. I can't right the wrong. There is no closure...never will be.

I know powerless rage is the worst, and that's totally the emotion I would have in this circumstance, too. I raged for months after my exT totally blew off my complaints about her (much less severe) ethical failures. All I can tell you is I finally realized I would have to get past the rage or it would kill ME instead of her. I realized that she had issues that caused her to act that way which had NOTHING to do with me, and that those issues were going to keep affecting her in all areas of her life. But I could learn from her mistakes and go on with my life. All that energy of rage is telling you something important about what you value. I think it's important to listen to what that is, whether it's how much you care about honesty, protecting vulnerable people in general, or how much you value your own worth and happiness. I hope you can find a place to pour those energies into where you WILL get a result you want and won't be helpless.

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by Chummy

Whether he has been thaught it or not, he should know it's not done to have sex wit a patient/client. I knew it would not be legal for a T or pdoc to have sex with a patient before I had ever read or be told about it. T me it's a kind of common sence.
My T knows it's not legal. I don't know about pdoc, but I think he also knows it's not legal.

But if it isn't being taught, it sure needs to be taught.

unfortunately it is legal in some states

[kiwi33]

I am not a health professional but have taught medical students in their pre-clinical years.

The importance of professional ethics (maintaining a healthy relationship boundary with their clients) is drummed into them from day 1).

Any health professional who abuses that relationship by seducing one of his/her clients will, after due process, will be banned and rightly so.

[justdesserts]

I'm a therapist and I had to have an ethics class to get licensed. My therapist, a PhD psychologist, recently went to an ethics continuing education class that was required for him to keep his license. I know that the MDs we went to school with took ethics courses as well. I agree that your PDoc was lying or manipulating words the way he answered the question.

[msxyz]

Originally Posted by junkDNA

unfortunately it is legal in some states

It is legal in all states, it is however against the rules of the licensing boards so they can lose their license but can't be prosecuted.

That's not well articulated, sorry.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by msxyz

It is legal in all states, it is however against the rules of the licensing boards so they can lose their license but can't be prosecuted.

That's not well articulated, sorry.

I am no expert. Please correct me if I am mistaken:

There are two concerns- 1) legal/illegal and 2) unethical:

I have found that psychiatrists having sex with patients is illegal in some states. I believe in California the first offense is a misdemeanor. Repeated acts are felonies. I know it is illegal in other states but am not certain which ones. There are some states where it is not against the law...not criminal...for a psychiatrist to have sex with a patient.

However, psychiatrists must also answer to their medical board which determined that sex with patients is medically unethical in all states and subject to discipline. The state's medical licensing board determines which psychiatrists have their medical license revoked and which psychiatrists are disciplined in other ways.

Some psychiatrists can be held criminally liable, as well as, disciplined/revoked by their medical licensing board.

In my case, the psychiatrist was arrested for having sex with three patients. Later the DAG decided not to take the case to trial due to lack of evidence. Additionally, the psychiatrist in my case was disciplined by the state medical licensing board and his medical license was revoked in two states.

The laws are not consistent at all throughout the United States. It can be quite confusing.

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by msxyz

It is legal in all states, it is however against the rules of the licensing boards so they can lose their license but can't be prosecuted.

That's not well articulated, sorry.

some states it is illegal and a criminal offense

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by junkDNA

some states it is illegal and a criminal offense

Yes, California is one of those states. The psychiatrist in my case committed a felony. He was arrested. But the Deputy Attorney General decided not to prosecute the case because he didn't feel there was enough proof to win a case against him.

That's where I learned that it doesn't matter in court who is right or who is wrong- it's about what you can prove.

There were seven women who reported him. Only three of us came forward to help prosecute him criminally. I could identify certain aspects of parts of his anatomy that I shouldn't have been able to see....but the DAG would not prosecute.

I will always wonder if the prosecuting attorney didn't think we were credible witnesses because we were "psych patients." Could have also been about PerpPsych having a close relative being an attorney. I don't know.

[junkDNA]

a lot of what decides court cases is money as well. sadly. in my state what my T did is not criminal. but i sued him civilly. well i sued his insurance company. he lost all his assets in a divorce. his wife left him once i reported him to the board and his license was revoked forever.

sorry u went through that. i can imagine how invalidating it must have been/is to have them not prosecute your pdoc.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by junkDNA

a lot of what decides court cases is money as well. sadly. in my state what my T did is not criminal. but i sued him civilly. well i sued his insurance company. he lost all his assets in a divorce. his wife left him once i reported him to the board and his license was revoked forever.

sorry u went through that. i can imagine how invalidating it must have been/is to have them not prosecute your pdoc.

It was. Thank you. I'm glad your civil case ended well.

I lost the civil case because he did not have malpractice insurance. He moved all his assets to his mother in law's name, and he claimed bankruptcy...so there were no assets to attach. He is still married- I'm not sure how happily.

His license was revoked, though. At least there's that. Now he can be a narcissist sociopathic lying used car salesman if he wants to. The last I knew for sure he was selling vitamins. He is retirement age now.

[junkDNA]

Originally Posted by precaryous

It was. Thank you. I'm glad your civil case ended well.

I lost the civil case because he did not have malpractice insurance. He moved all his assets to his mother in law's name, and he claimed bankruptcy...so there were no assets to attach. He is still married- I'm not sure how happily.

His license was revoked, though. At least there's that. Now he can be a narcissist sociopathic lying used car salesman if he wants to. The last I knew for sure he was selling vitamins. He is retirement age now.

my former T is 48 now. he was 20 yrs older than me. i dont know what he does now. nor do i care. hes a loser. i wasnt supposed to get any money from his insurance. because they had a clause in it that specifically stated that they do not give payouts for anything sex related kind of misconduct. but i had a really good attorney and they basically paid me to shut up about it. there were stipulations though and the majority of it went to health insurance leins. i was left with some money which is paying for my therapy now.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by junkDNA

my former T is 48 now. he was 20 yrs older than me. i dont know what he does now. nor do i care. hes a loser. i wasnt supposed to get any money from his insurance. because they had a clause in it that specifically stated that they do not give payouts for anything sex related kind of misconduct. but i had a really good attorney and they basically paid me to shut up about it. there were stipulations though and the majority of it went to health insurance leins. i was left with some money which is paying for my therapy now.

That's terrible...that's what they do! Medicare and Medicaid had liens against my case. My attorney was to get 40% off the top. Everyone had liens against my case except me.

[tinyrabbit]

Interesting question. I am in the UK, where there are a variety of courses and qualifications for people wishing to become counsellors or psychotherapists. I can only comment on what I know of training in the UK, and am obviously not going to say which course I am doing as I wish to stay anonymous.

I have not come across any UK courses that contain any optional modules whatsoever. They are not generally split into separate classes, with choices of what to take; you usually follow a compulsory programme and must have a very high attendance rate to complete this (usually around 80-85%).

In my case, learning about ethics and boundaries has not been a standalone class but a continuous, integral part of the learning. You can't really cover this off and consider it done, because it's something you're going to constantly be negotiating and thinking about. My course also requires me to sign up to a set of ethical guidelines. It would be strange if you didn't get to ask questions in class. Learning is usually through a mix of methods but not lectures in big halls as you learn in small groups.

So yes, we have talked specifically about why you can't have sex with clients.