Placebo effect

Maybe it's not about being right, exactly, but about being validated. And if it irks you on some level to see other people validating each others' experiences and feelings, then maybe you need to be validated, too. Just a thought, no sass meant.

I wouldn't place this thread in the same category as the one saying that all therapy does more harm than good.

This one is more about examining what goes on in therapy - how does it work? That is interesting to me.

I also think that the words "placebo effect" have a negative connotation to some people and not to others. They are not negative to me. If therapy or a medication causes me to experience improvement, I'd like to know if that's caused by the placebo effect, but if it is, to me that's not an automatic reason to ditch the treatment.

Improvement is improvement, and I'll take it, if it doesn't come with unacceptable side effects.

Some people hear "placebo effect" and conclude "doesn't work, I'll be just as well off without that treatment."

I feel like you are making my point for me. The cons like to complain in front of the pros in hopes that the pros will finally say something to change the cons minds. Otherwise why not complain only in front of other cons? If the cons put themselves in front of the pros, arent they asking for pros comments / validation?

I am neither pro nor con - I don't find it that black and white - but if you don't like or are not interested in what I post about, why read my threads? I don't understand why you view it as though cons are complaining in front of pros (it is okay with me if you do want to view it like this - just not how I do it) - it is not at all how I see any of these threads.

My t says if I continue working on XYZ then XYZ will be better and most certainly it already is. And she says that too. She helped me to discover what's XYZ is. No no magical healing lol

I don't go to therapy due to MI though. I have mild symptoms of various MI but all too mild to be diagnosed. I just work on specific issues. No magic needed lol

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WHY i view it as the cons complaining in front of the pros. Why? Who cares why? What does that even mean?? I see it how i see it. Like the thread about resistance. I read it to find out more about resistance. How to defeat it in myself. Not how to outwit my t regarding it. That is a fools errand. If i outwit my t, who have i bested? It just means my mother (and my past brain) won that round.

Copper said maybe i was looking for validation. I said, hey copper maybe youre looking for validation. Doesnt get more 3rd grade playground than that

I play the game differently than you do -and it is fine. How I use information is my responsibility and if you want to use info for how you see it will help you best - it is okay with me. But I remain firm in how I use it for myself is not wrong.

You may well have a unique way of using your therapy. You havent really shared it with us, except that you ask one t to stay away, but not the other. I dont think i can really comment on what you do. When i spoke of resistance being a fool's errand, i was speaking of resistance in general - i have no idea if you are resistant. For all i know, you rest your head in your 2nd t's lap and she strokes your hair during the entire hour... And Kim Kardashian thinks SHE can shut down the internet!

This thread is about placebo not resistance. However the second one is never mention resistance to me in the first just said it's not conscious. I don't think resistance or figuring out how to keep the therapist back is a fools game But that is just me. Plus it's not a matter about winning or beating them for me, it's more a matter of understanding how they're playing the game and whether you choose to go along with that or not but the decision requires transparency from the therapist (rare in my experience) or the ability of the client to find out

I am not one for anecdote, what does the science say? The usual scan of online papers finds a number of placebo controlled trials of CBT, that leave you more baffled than before, but a recent (2015)meta-analysis of data from numerous papers has this to say about the placebo effect -

An interesting confounder related to the common factors should be mentioned: the placebo effect. The placebo effect is typically stronger for newer treatments, however, as time passes and experience with therapy is gained, the strong initial expectations wane.
One may question whether this is the case with CBT. In the initial phase of the cognitive era, CBT was frequently portrayed as the gold standard for the treatment of many disorders. In recent times, however, an increasing number of studies (e.g.,
Baardseth et al., 2013; Wampold et al., 2002, 1997) have not found this method to be superior to other techniques. Coupled with the increasing availability of such information to the public, including the Internet, it is not inconceivable that patients’ hope and faith in the efficacy of CBT has decreased somewhat, in recent decades. Moreover, whether widespread knowledge of the present meta-analysis results might worsen the situation, remains an open question. Source: https://uit.no/Content/418448/The%20...%20falling.pdf

In other words to more patients read about CBT the less their confidence in its efficacy and the less the placebo effect. I get a strong sense that many other posters have read rather a lot about CBT and their faith correspondingly diminished.

Often my therapist and my pdoc have told me sometimes what I might just need is some time. No magic from them, no pill, no particular anything but to allow myself some time. That is more or less that placebo effect you speak of. They have never claimed to have a magic pill or technique or answer to what ailed me. They have no problem telling me let's just sit on this for a bit and see if time, rest, etc. will cause things to improve on their own. They do offer meds or skills, etc. that I can utilize that might work, but they realize there are times the best healer is just some time and space and rest. Call that placebo effect if you want. I call it having a T and pdoc who are pretty grounded and honest and who realize they don't always have all of the answers. I wouldn't see one who thought they did.

Emory's Scott Lilienfeld is a psych professor who delves into science vs. pseudoscience. Here's a summary of one of his articles:
Why Psychotherapy Appears to Work (Even When It Doesn't) | Wray Herbert

Here's the full 33 pages if you like curling up with a good journal:
http://lukemuehlhauser.com/wp-conten...a-taxonomy.pdf

This is a more general about why questionable treatments can appear to work:
Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work

There has been research this fact (my pdoc did one in relation to medication) and it does makes sense. Most people on waiting lists to see psychiatrists and Ts for depression never end up seeing anyone because they simply got better with time. I think what this actually proves is not the efficacy of therapy, but that many people just don't need it. Depression alone doesn't really mean there is a need therapy, especially if it's situational.

As a physician, I find the placebo effect fascinating. It speaks to the power of our minds. And to the power of advertising. No matter what is being sold.

Basically, approximately 30% of people that are told "this fill in the blank (medication, procedure, lotion/cream/ ointment, process, whatever" will do something - again, fill in the blank, will experience the desired effect. Even surgical procedures.

That's why cellulite cream and hair tonics "work" for some people. The duration of the perceived positive or negative effect varies.

If you sell it hard enough, it will work, in about 30% of people.

The mind is definitely the least understood organ, I think. But it is very interesting, at least to me.

What I find interesting is the.... oh nevermind. I'm in the minority here so I'll just shut up.

Well there are also the people that don't get to see a pdoc and/or therapist that end up killing themselves. I guess will never know......

I also don't like the word magical used in regards to my healthcare.

I give my longterm T credit for humility. He has given me some statistic that at least 40% of people get better in therapy because of outside circumstances changing in a person's life, not necessarily therapy itself.

I think the author and the T interviewed in the article are pretty arrogant. Working in the field has not changed my mind about this - the magic that they speak of is not something only to be found in therapy. The concept of hope is powerful and though I think some people become more hopeful through therapy, I don't nexessarily think its because of some kind of healing power of the therapist. I think its the presence of proper support that was previously missing. If support already exists and depression is mostly caused by a client's situation, then they will most likely het better with or without therapy so long as the external situation improves.

Speak for yourself. I had been "doing it myself" for a few months and wasn't getting anywhere. And by doing it myself I had a CBT workbook I was using faithfully. I was still very stuck.

When I was in therapy with the therapist who abandoned me I thought I had hope. I really believed he would help me until I didn't really need his help anymore. I was like so many here who think they have great therapists. I didn't think it was "bad therapy." I wouldn't have cared if it was a placebo effect or whatever. Now I am extremely cynical of any therapy. I think it can be so damaging. I would rather have gotten nothing from it than so much pain.

I understand that you went through a painful and damage experience, and I am not downplaying it at all. What I am saying is you cannot say based on your experience that other people do not need therapy.

I never said that, but people should also keep in mind there is a chance therapy can cause things to be worse. They can end up in more pain and in worse shape. It's a crapshoot really. No guarantees you'll get better and a good chance you might get worse.

I used to be like so many here who believe in therapy. I had a "great" therapist for seven years. So I've been there. I never thought I would be on the "wrong" side of believing in therapy.

Sigh. Of course I am speaking for myself. You are speaking for yourself as well. I was in therapy for seven years and just got worse. (I believed the whole "It's gets worse before it gets better" line.) I am so much better off working on things myself. I am functioning as a human being now.

I really think that this shows not so much that therapy is harmful, but rather that you were harmed by a therapist. I do think that there are times when people who don't really need therapy go and end up with problems they didn't have before they went in. This isn't always the case - I have been told more than once by Ts that they didn't think I needed therapy. There are however, therapists that need to create a client base and with that create self doubt in people who previously thought things were fine (think of someone in therapy who is content with their romantic relationship until their T says "Hmmm, it doesn't bother you when your SO does that? Interesting..."). So there is therapy and there is bad therapy. Its obviously harmed you and makes sense you wouldn't want to try again - why would you? And it seems like don't need it anyway. There are a lot of misconceptions about what therapy can really do-among both therapists and clients alike. There are many, many therapists with God complexes who take way too much credit for the " healing"'of clients (and I really hope I am not one of them) but for all of them there are a lot of good ones too. Unfortunately the ones we tend to hear from have the big egos and God complexes an the ones we hear about are the bat**** crazy ones. From my experience in school I've learned that if there is a change to be made in Masters programs and licensing for counselors, it's the screening process.

I disagree. I do think therapy is harmful. I think it goes beyond bad therapists. I see way too many people get hurt. I see way too many people get "hooked" on therapy only to be harmed by it. I really don't think this is an issue therapists will even address. Why should they? It is how they make their money.