Before the 'walking out' episode of yesterday's session. Something odd happened.
An aeroplane flew over as I sat in session, admittedly it was a little louder than usual. T said, oh, we normally only have police helicopters overhead at night. I said, that's not a helicopter, it's a plane. T said, is it?
In that tiny conversation I felt like I'd murdered my gran in my correcting T. Wierd.

[LindaLu]

Wow that sounds brave! I've never had the courage to directly challenge even mild things like that with T. I'm very indirect, oh I heard from a third source that actually... And she is generally cautious in similar situations with me. But we are females and that is a habit of discourse anyway.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by LindaLu

But we are females and that is a habit of discourse anyway.

Not really. It's a learned behavior. Nobody, male or female, likes to have their views ignored and disregarded. Girls are generally socialized to be 'nice', so we're more likely to put up with this kind of bs. Ultimately it doesn't make us 'nice'. Nobody likes a resentful passive aggressive b-.
Sorry, this is a sore point. By nature I'm fairly blunt and opinionated, but I've been trained to be a good girl. I'm very good at stifling my opinions, but I hate it

[Bill3]

Good job correcting your T!

Just Shakey has some great points on the way females are socially conditioned. I was totally blunt with T1 and contradicted him often, I am less like that with T2 but I feel I'm still at the trust building stage.
I would probably correct him if he was factually inaccurate though, I am a stickler for accuracy and have to hold myself back from correcting people most of the time.

It's the feeling it gave me that took me by surprise. I actually felt embarrassed for T. Gawd knows why

Originally Posted by _Mouse

It's the feeling it gave me that took me by surprise. I actually felt embarrassed for T. Gawd knows why

I guess because you hold her in high regard, and her being wrong took you by surprise.

She's been won't before and I felt that cringe feeling, but let it go. This time it just come out. Me correcting her, that is.

I was at the beach yesterday, I saw a young boy with his mum, she had packed everything up to go, then he said 'you forgot your flip flops', I could see them left in the sand. I thought the mum might have praised him for being helpful. But she didn't, she didn't seem very pleased and she said 'I'm such a flip flop'.

[LindaLu]

Originally Posted by JustShakey

It's a learned behavior...

Girls are generally socialized to be 'nice'

Ultimately it doesn't make us 'nice'.

Nobody likes a resentful passive aggressive b-...

JustShakey, it's very evident that you are mad but I am perplexed at the reaction. I said only that it's a habit of [female] discourse. A habit IS learned and often it's the product of socialization.

You don't know me but I am definitely not passive aggressive, nor am I a "b-" My T has faults but neither of those adjectives describes her. Moreover Communication style is one of many characteristics of a therapeutic "frame" created by participants. You may not like mine and I may not like yours. That's to be expected.

It would be worthwhile to show more respect and consider what's literally been posted before reacting so strongly.

Thanks.

[unaluna]

Linda, i dont see that justshakey is angry or that she was calling anybody in particular passive aggressive. just that that was the alternative to being forthright.

In general, isnt this about being afraid of being forthright? There is a thing in psychology about the child being afraid that the parent will and or wont survive the child's anger. Many parents dont know how to handle this stage of a childs development. They think they must force the child to obey them about EVERYTHING.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by LindaLu

JustShakey, it's very evident that you are mad but I am perplexed at the reaction. I said only that it's a habit of [female] discourse. A habit IS learned and often it's the product of socialization.


You don't know me but I am definitely not passive aggressive, nor am I a "b-" My T has faults but neither of those adjectives describes her. Moreover Communication style is one of many characteristics of a therapeutic "frame" created by participants. You may not like mine and I may not like yours. That's to be expected.


It would be worthwhile to show more respect and consider what's literally been posted before reacting so strongly.


Thanks.

I'm sorry if I offended you Linda. It was meant as a general statement as it is a commonly held belief.
And yes, it is a very sore point. I hate the idea that as a woman I am supposedly not allowed to be aggressive, but that's my stuff and I'm sorry if I seemed to make it about you.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

I am supposedly not allowed to be aggressive - Do you really mean aggressive, or do you mean assertive? The latter seems a better ambition whatever gender.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ManOfConstantSorrow

I am supposedly not allowed to be aggressive - Do you really mean aggressive, or do you mean assertive? The latter seems a better ambition whatever gender.

I have had that distinction pointed out to me. And then i punched him. NOT REALLY JUST KIDDING!!! "They" had to invent assertiveness training in the '80's because girls/women werent allowed to be assertive, either. Then they were like, oh well youre being aggressive, not assertive - thats why youre making us mad when you want to get your way. You need to learn to ask nice. So we learned to ask nice, and they still say no. And thats where we are now.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by hankster

I have had that distinction pointed out to me. And then i punched him. NOT REALLY JUST KIDDING!!! "They" had to invent assertiveness training in the '80's because girls/women werent allowed to be assertive, either. Then they were like, oh well youre being aggressive, not assertive - thats why youre making us mad when you want to get your way. You need to learn to ask nice. So we learned to ask nice, and they still say no. And thats where we are now.

Yeah, this. I was talking about relationships with T today - he was saying that it might be easier for me to be in a relationship with a woman because a lot of men would be intimidated by me. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who I have to play all nice-y nice with. I'll watch my mouth with acquaintances and coworkers and the like but if you're going to be my friend you're going to see who I am. I've been trapped behind The Rules for Girls for far too long.
FWIW, I only half agree with him. I think women can be just as touchy as men about aggression in women.

[unaluna]

It actually was a younger woman who dast suggest it.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Different cultures perhaps, Americans are remarkably in yer face, what is normal to them, would be unacceptable and set every hand and heart against them in this culture.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by ManOfConstantSorrow

Different cultures perhaps, Americans are remarkably in yer face, what is normal to them, would be unacceptable and set every hand and heart against them in this culture.

Maybe... I'm an expat, so I'm used to adjusting my approach depending on who I'm around. Perhaps surprisingly enough, there are many things that Irish and British people say bluntly that would insult an American.
I'm more thinking of intimate relationships here though.