[Petra5ed]

Sometimes I wonder if small boundary crossings are deliberate to generate dependence in me and keep me coming back. Things like hugs, etc etc. things that lead me to wonder if my therapist cares about me beyond what a therapist "should" care. I think this is maybe why the boundaries are there. Sometimes I feel so pathetic like I would pay a $100 an hour for just one hug.... Does anyone know of a therapist who uses tactics like this just to keep sad ones like me around? I think what really kills me about the therapy relationship is not knowing and not being able to know how my therapist feels about me. It's a total mind ****! Should I just ask him?

[LonesomeTonight]

I completely know what you mean about hating not being about to know what a T thinks about you. At one point I was talking to my T about some stuff with my marriage counselor and saying I wished I could know his general impression of me (he'd mentioned having a fairly set impression of me and H, in response to concerns I had about bringing something up). And she was like, "Why don't you just ask him?" and I said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to know the answer. I feel like he'd have to give some psychologist answer and not really say. And T asked me at one point if I wished I was MC's favorite patient. And I said I doubted I was, and plus it's not like he would say.

I told him I loved him, and I hate that no matter what he feels, he can't say anything back. I was trying to find out if it was OK if I felt that, making sure he wasn't going to push me away, and he did say it was OK, so he technically answered my question, but... It's like sometimes I see something in his eyes when he looks at me that definitely feels like caring, maybe bordering on love? (Not referring to sexual attraction here, just to clarify.) But I feel like I have to rely on that because they can't say stuff.

I'd like to believe that T's like yours (and MC) don't just do things deliberately to keep clients around and attached to them. Because that seems like playing games or playing to their own ego, which just seems wrong. I'd like to believe that the caring is genuinely there, so maybe they mistakenly step over boundaries they set for themselves, and then they're like, "Oh no, better step back!"

You could always ask him how he feels about you, but be prepared for him to ask you why you feel the need to know. And also for him to not really answer, or be like, "I care about all my patients."

Pretty sure I'd pay $100 for a hug too

[Leah123]

Yes, I hope you will ask him.

Personally, I don't believe he'd give you a hug to keep you enthralled and I haven't known any therapists that would deliberately do that.

[iheartjacques]

Nope. Mine doesn't do anything like that. He's so ethical it's annoying. But I guess what keeps me coming back is the safe place to dump my crap, if he gives me a lighter session after a hard one, and remembers most of what I've said, and treats me like a normal person, sometimes after I've said something, I think gee how can I face him again, but he always bounces in with a big smile.

[ThingWithFeathers]

There have been times when I thought my t was bending the rules for me, like sending a reply email on a Saturday or after work hours. But I'm beginning to think it stayed in my mind, not necessarily indicative of her feelings, but of the seriousness of mine. She has always responded immediately to crisis situations, and this has made all the difference.

[atisketatasket]

I don't know about fostering dependence (and I'm not sure a hug is a minor boundary crossing, at least it wouldn't be to me), though I do think that therapists who want to establish a strong connection with a client may try to present themselves in ways that they think will appeal to the client, within reason. You might call that manipulative, or therapeutic, whichever you prefer.

My feelings really go back and forth on this topic. While I for the most part believe that my t is "one of the good ones" from time to time I have felt "trapped" in therapy, like I couldn't get out if I tried, like she had me under a spell or something. I've written about it on PC more than once. I was "done" with therapy back in April, saw t in May for what I intended as my last appointment, but prior to that appointment I attended a lecture about Jungian depth psychology that was so fascinating that I had this huge insight about just how much I had truly just begun my work (yes, even after 3.5 years of it!), that what we'd done up until then had been laying the foundation for the real work....or something...clearing ground for it, or something.... and though I could have been "free" of her, felt completely ready to say goodbye in one sense, on the other hand.... I knew that my real work had just begun and I asked her if we could continue. I haven't felt "under her spell" in quite a while and if I ever feel that again, I'm going to bring it up with her. I feel like I am in therapy now, because I want to be. And that's a big difference from feeling like I have no choice. Interesting to think about this, thanks!

Originally Posted by artemis-within

My feelings really go back and forth on this topic. While I for the most part believe that my t is "one of the good ones" from time to time I have felt "trapped" in therapy, like I couldn't get out if I tried, like she had me under a spell or something. I've written about it on PC more than once. I was "done" with therapy back in April, saw t in May for what I intended as my last appointment, but prior to that appointment I attended a lecture about Jungian depth psychology that was so fascinating that I had this huge insight about just how much I had truly just begun my work (yes, even after 3.5 years of it!), that what we'd done up until then had been laying the foundation for the real work....or something...clearing ground for it, or something.... and though I could have been "free" of her, felt completely ready to say goodbye in one sense, on the other hand.... I knew that my real work had just begun and I asked her if we could continue. I haven't felt "under her spell" in quite a while and if I ever feel that again, I'm going to bring it up with her. I feel like I am in therapy now, because I want to be. And that's a big difference from feeling like I have no choice. Interesting to think about this, thanks!

I'm intrigues about what you learnt in the lecture. Would you like to share more? (Maybe in a new thread?)

Originally Posted by artemis-within

My feelings really go back and forth on this topic. While I for the most part believe that my t is "one of the good ones" from time to time I have felt "trapped" in therapy, like I couldn't get out if I tried, like she had me under a spell or something. I've written about it on PC more than once. I was "done" with therapy back in April, saw t in May for what I intended as my last appointment, but prior to that appointment I attended a lecture about Jungian depth psychology that was so fascinating that I had this huge insight about just how much I had truly just begun my work (yes, even after 3.5 years of it!), that what we'd done up until then had been laying the foundation for the real work....or something...clearing ground for it, or something.... and though I could have been "free" of her, felt completely ready to say goodbye in one sense, on the other hand.... I knew that my real work had just begun and I asked her if we could continue. I haven't felt "under her spell" in quite a while and if I ever feel that again, I'm going to bring it up with her. I feel like I am in therapy now, because I want to be. And that's a big difference from feeling like I have no choice. Interesting to think about this, thanks!

I'm intrigues about what you learnt in the lecture. Would you like to share more? (Maybe in a new thread, or a PM?)

[nicoleflynn]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

Sometimes I wonder if small boundary crossings are deliberate to generate dependence in me and keep me coming back. Things like hugs, etc etc. things that lead me to wonder if my therapist cares about me beyond what a therapist "should" care. I think this is maybe why the boundaries are there. Sometimes I feel so pathetic like I would pay a $100 an hour for just one hug.... Does anyone know of a therapist who uses tactics like this just to keep sad ones like me around? I think what really kills me about the therapy relationship is not knowing and not being able to know how my therapist feels about me. It's a total mind ****! Should I just ask him?

Yes, I had many boundary crossings I will share on pm if you are interested In other words, yes....I knew how he felt about me. Paying for love"---I understand. My t said he "falls in love with ALL of his clients" not really falling in love, but I knew what he meant. As far as how he led me on, etc.....well.......

[Lauliza]

I do think they will act in ways that encourages connection and in some people, this might set them up for dependence. In general, when we're taking about "normal" Ts (as opposed to predatory ones) I'm sure there are some who deliberately hook people to keep them coming, but I don't think it's very common. For many Ts there is no shortage of clients - lots of practices have waiting lists. I'd bet that Ts in solo private practices with cash paying clients are more likely than others to try to keep clients dependent.

I don't think small hugs are necessarily boundary crossings if client and T are people who hug. Other boundary crossings or violations could point to a T that is a manipulative predator. If you feel like a T is trying to seduce you or make you fall in love to keep you coming, that is an entirely different issue. This type T absolutely does these things on purpose and should be avoided.

[musinglizzy]

In response to Lauliza's post, that kinda happened to me. I'm still with this T. I had a hard time opening up and trusting her. I was so shut down in the beginning. I eventually started dissociating. Five months after starting therapy, my T (repeat story, I know!) would come sit by me, rub my back or leg, I eventually got comfortable with crying while she held me. It wasn't every session, but it happened fairly often. After four months, she stopped. After nearly a month went by, I started noticing that she stopped, and I asked her about it. She gave me a couple stories. The first one was that I was having a hard time opening up to her and trusting her, and she thought by her doing that would help her gain my trust. She later said I was so alone and in such a dark place that she thought her actions would be helpful. They were. But then she took those actions away for good. I told her the very thing she used to "trick" me into trusting her is the same thing that took my trust away. It's been a rough several months since this rupture occurred, and I'm trying hard to continue working with her. But I felt exactly as this thread says. Trapped. Bait and switch. You name it. I don't agree with what she did, but something inside makes me stay and try to work it out with her. I know she did not intend to hurt me, I don't see it as seductive, but I think she should not have offered something just to trick me into trusting her, then take it away. She never should have offered something she wouldn't continue to offer. It was very damaging to me, and still is. I struggle every day, and have for nearly 5 months now. But, my feeling is, it will just make me stronger...

[fadedstar]

I don't know on this issue. I think some therapists definitely aren't doing the right thing but at the same part some of us need a little looser boundary. If my T weren't extremely gentle and almost maternal with me I would've bolted months ago. (I am very easily scared off). Right now I'm ridiculously vulnerable from the past trauma that's resurfaced so I wouldn't mind a hug at the end of a hard session. I think it's a fine line to walk.

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[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

In response to Lauliza's post, that kinda happened to me. I'm still with this T. I had a hard time opening up and trusting her. I was so shut down in the beginning. I eventually started dissociating. Five months after starting therapy, my T (repeat story, I know!) would come sit by me, rub my back or leg, I eventually got comfortable with crying while she held me. It wasn't every session, but it happened fairly often. After four months, she stopped. After nearly a month went by, I started noticing that she stopped, and I asked her about it. She gave me a couple stories. The first one was that I was having a hard time opening up to her and trusting her, and she thought by her doing that would help her gain my trust. She later said I was so alone and in such a dark place that she thought her actions would be helpful. They were. But then she took those actions away for good. I told her the very thing she used to "trick" me into trusting her is the same thing that took my trust away. It's been a rough several months since this rupture occurred, and I'm trying hard to continue working with her. But I felt exactly as this thread says. Trapped. Bait and switch. You name it. I don't agree with what she did, but something inside makes me stay and try to work it out with her. I know she did not intend to hurt me, I don't see it as seductive, but I think she should not have offered something just to trick me into trusting her, then take it away. She never should have offered something she wouldn't continue to offer. It was very damaging to me, and still is. I struggle every day, and have for nearly 5 months now. But, my feeling is, it will just make me stronger...

My therpist has never set a pattern of holding me but it's happened. He's never taken something away. If he did stop hugging me all together I would surely be very hurt and confused. What reason did your therapist give for the change?

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

My therpist has never set a pattern of holding me but it's happened. He's never taken something away. If he did stop hugging me all together I would surely be very hurt and confused. What reason did your therapist give for the change?

She said it was only intended to be temporary. I told her I wish she would have told me/talked to me about that. Had I known I would have stopped it sooner. She also said she felt it was needed at the time, but as I started to trust her and open up more, she felt I could handle the pain on my own. She said she is not comfortable with touch in therapy like that, and that is not what she "does." She said she's never offered that with anyone else in over 20 years as a psychologist. She said that behavior can foster regression or dependence. I said I don't have either of those, she agreed, and said that's why I need to stop, so it DOESN'T happen. I felt horribly rejected, self conscious, my self esteem, which was already pretty bad, went completely down the toilet. I didn't think my feelings mattered. Well, really, they didn't. Growing up, I couldn't show love for anything, I couldn't show interest in anything, or it was taken away. It felt like that all over again. The one person who's supposed to be helping me help myself to get better, was doing the very same thing the adults in my life did when I was a child. It was actually traumatic for me, and for over two months (sessions twice a week), I showed up, but shut down. It was just last month when I started REALLY talking again.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

I doubt many T's want to keep clients dependent and would I cannot imagine a T who would much rather see them recover and get on with their lives. Then T's can take on new clients, new challenges and learn new things. Pretty dismal professional life if your clients never recover and move on and you are stuck with the same people for 40 years.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ManOfConstantSorrow

I doubt many T's want to keep clients dependent and would I cannot imagine a T who would much rather see them recover and get on with their lives. Then T's can take on new clients, new challenges and learn new things. Pretty dismal professional life if your clients never recover and move on and you are stuck with the same people for 40 years.

I agree. I see my t as saying, if he removes all the obstacles i say i have by being sweet to me - nobody loves me, nobody listens to me, nobody cares - then the rest is kinda up to me, isnt it? Like whats my excuse now? I do come in with, well it feels scary, or whatever - and we talk about that then. But he tries to make "the relationship" not be the problem.

when i was studying how to write a novel or a play, that there are like 6 basic plot devices - man against man, man against the world, man against himself, i forget the rest. So i kinda see t as letting us work out these plots using him to argue against; ultimately its us against ourselves.

[(JD)]

Good Ts don't use manipulation like that, especially like that (physical hugs etc)...and the fact that your subject line says it is a boundary crossing... you really need to sit your T down and talk about YOUR boundaries!

Good Ts can establish good relationships and remove your obstacles to therapy work without touching your boundaries.

I've never had a therapist cross my boundaries or had problems concerning boundaries with a therapist. I don't consider an occasional hug or him holding my hand, etc. a boundary issue particularly, but I think so much depends on the issues and needs of the client involved.

This is where a therapist has to really be cognizant of who the client is they are dealing with. If they are working with clients where boundaries/transference/attachment, etc. aren't really issues, they probably don't have to give those occasional changes in touch, etc. much thought. However, if they realize they are working with clients whose stresses often involve those types of things, they must be diligent in being consistent and in discussing those issues openly with those clients.

Unfortunately, it seems too many don't think that through before they act and end up creating additional problems for their clients. I don't think most intend to be manipulative with changes in their boundaries; I think they just don't think their boundary changes will have the kind of affect they do because I suspect the vast majority of their clients manage variations in boundaries without undue distress. It comes off as manipulative to the client because the clients that are affected that way have spent much of their lives at the whims of people who actually did manipulate them that way and they "expect" and are hyperaware of those kinds of changes.

Edited to add: (had to run and cook supper for the fam.) -- Therapist have to do a better job of knowing their clients and making deliberate decisions based on their individual client needs. It's a tall order I realize to weigh all of those subtle and individual needs, but good therapists can manage this well I am convinced. It is just frustrating that so many without that kind of ability and skill just seem to willy-nilly make decisions on the fly rather than truly planning things through when they can.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Originally Posted by hankster

I agree. I see my t as saying, if he removes all the obstacles i say i ha... studying how to write a novel or a play, that there are like 6 basic plot devices - man against man, man against the world, man against himself, i forget the rest. So i kinda see t as letting us work out these plots using him to argue against; ultimately its us against ourselves.

I was not very convinced by The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories: Amazon.co.uk: Christopher Booker: 9780826480378: Books

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ManOfConstantSorrow

I was not very convinced by The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories: Amazon.co.uk: Christopher Booker: 9780826480378: Books

Is that booker of the booker prize? There may be some set against you! Thanks for this

Eta - Perhaps not! But i just read the amazon reviews. Thx again!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

This is where a therapist has to really be cognizant of who the client is they are dealing with. If they are working with clients where boundaries/transference/attachment, etc. aren't really issues, they probably don't have to give those occasional changes in touch, etc. much thought. However, if they realize they are working with clients whose stresses often involve those types of things, they must be diligent in being consistent and in discussing those issues openly with those clients.

Unfortunately, it seems too many don't think that through before they act and end up creating additional problems for their clients. I don't think most intend to be manipulative with changes in their boundaries; I think they just don't think their boundary changes will have the kind of affect they do because I suspect the vast majority of their clients manage variations in boundaries without undue distress. It comes off as manipulative to the client because the clients that are affected that way have spent much of their lives at the whims of people who actually did manipulate them that way and they "expect" and are hyperaware of those kinds of changes.

Edited to add: (had to run and cook supper for the fam.) -- Therapist have to do a better job of knowing their clients and making deliberate decisions based on their individual client needs. It's a tall order I realize to weigh all of those subtle and individual needs, but good therapists can manage this well I am convinced. It is just frustrating that so many without that kind of ability and skill just seem to willy-nilly make decisions on the fly rather than truly planning things through when they can.

The issue here, at least for me, is when therapists *think* they know their clients and think they can handle something. Like, in the case of my marriage counselor, thinking I'm not as fragile as I may think I am. So he's thinking I can handle certain things, like saying his door is always open to me for individual sessions, then realizing he made a mistake in saying that when I actually request another individual session. But, at least where he is concerned, I am actually pretty fragile, partly due to transference and stuff from the past and partly due to my current feelings for him (which may go beyond transference). I think he now realizes that he hurt me with that change--and how much he hurt me--from how he reacted when I was talking about my depression worsening in those few weeks. Things seem better now, and I'm hoping he realizes I'm maybe a bit more sensitive than he'd thought. I think he does--he's pretty perceptive and tuned in to me for the most part. In a way, it seems good for a T to think you're strong, especially if you don't believe it yourself. But if they think you're stronger than you really are, and ready to handle more than you're ready to handle, that can be a bad thing.