[BayBrony]

I haven't been around much of this week because I've been grappling with a very difficult rejection from my therapist. However I decided I should share particularly because it reminded me of musinglizzy's struggle. Although this is a hard thing for my I think my therapist has handled it in an incredibly sensitive manner and I already see us moving past it....In around March my therapist and I agreed that I could text her as much as I wanted but that I could only expect a response each night because she spends a lot of non work time driving her 5 kids and step kids around. This evolved into a very loving routine of sweet good night texts. For me, it was the most maternal thing anyone had ever done for me and she had repeatedly over months reassured me that she loved doing it and had no intention of stopping.

So it was quite a painful surprise this week when she suddenly said she needed to stop completely. She assured me it was nothing I did. She had decided that she could not continue being pulled in two directions at home ( focus on phone/computer vs family responsibilities) so she was telling this to all her clients, friends etc. Unless it was an emergency she just would not respond to electronic communication in the evening. She said she was becoming overwhelmed and distressed because lots of people wanted her attention.

I love her so the first thing that made me angry was why hand it down like an ultimatum? ?? If she'd presented it as something she needed for her own well being I would have willingly scaled the texting way back
But instead of asking she just told me. She told me at our next session that she was very upset about hurting me and did not handle the conversation well and really should have asked instead of just told me how things were going to go.

I also felt betrayed since she had reassured me that this would not change and of course very very hurt and rejected...

But ..she sent me an email taking full responsibility for making a bad decision that hurt me. She should not have agreed to do something that she could not sustain and that that was her mistake and I did nothing wrong. In our next session she spoke in surprising detail about the profound depression she can experience when she over extends herself and the powerful negative effects it's had on her life. She explained that she has learned to recognize certain signs that she is getting overwhelmed and that it's not just clients---even her children and husband have been upset by boundaries she has to set due to the emotional demands of her job. Her commitment to self care and the big picture of my therapy was obvious. After that I felt like I truly understood WHY she had to do this and how she ultimately felt she was preserving our long term relationship by maintaining her own strength.

In that session and the next I just cried and cried and talked over and over about how hurt I was and she told me I could talk and cry as much as I needed to . Her mistake as a professional brought me this pain and she would sit with me and listen until I had nothing left to say about it

We are discussing ways to help perpetuate that connection without texting . She did not realize how it touched that maternal wound in me and she feels it's very important to not just abandon it.

I still hurt and at times it hurts terribly. But I also feel closer, like I understand her better. I think.it will take a while to work through all the layers but...I thought the way she admitted fault, explained and took responsibility was really helpful

[JustShakey]

(((Brony)))
One of the things I'm really beginning to 'see' in the last few weeks is how much I learn from the bad places, from the pain.
Kudos to your T for being so honest with you and taking responsibility - too many Ts are not that brave.
Good work you for holding on through it. It is not easy to face the pain.

[musinglizzy]

Oh mi gosh Bay..... although I understand how your T feels, it is SO hard to be offered something, then have it abruptly taken away. I'm SO sorry. It is so sweet that you were sending good night texts to each other, etc. My T allows texts, but I don't use it often. If I did, she'd probably say something about it. It is so nice that your T explained herself, and what she was feeling/going through. I know a lot of them don't do that, so she was really opening herself up to you by letting you know. It sounds like you and your T have an amazing relationship.

Believe me, I understand how you are feeling, even if her reasonings make sense. I can't imagine having 5 kids to haul around, pay attention to, etc. My T only has one child, as do I. Back when he was in karate (he received his black belt when he was 11), it seemed like the running never stopped, and I couldn't imagine having any more than just one.

But regardless, it is another instance of a T offering something, then taking it away. To me, that's just a huge reminder of my life growing up. I would really appreciate some constistency in therapy. Not more hurt. Believe me, I understand how you are feeling! HUGS!

[atisketatasket]

If I were your therapist, musinglizzy, hearing a story like BayBrony's would really open my eyes to what I'd done. Think that would do anything to get her to at least apologize?

(I'm not suggesting the actual story told here. You can probably find examples on the internet of similar stories.)

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

If I were your therapist, musinglizzy, hearing a story like BayBrony's would really open my eyes to what I'd done. Think that would do anything to get her to at least apologize?

(I'm not suggesting the actual story told here. You can probably find examples on the internet of similar stories.)

I think I'd handle it much better if my T would just apologize and/or admit that she made a bad decision. Guess that's not the way she is, or she really doesn't see that she did anything wrong. I'm thankful, Bay, that your T kind of owned up to it, explained herself, and realizes how much it hurt you.

[stopdog]

glad to hear your therapist handled it somewhat better than some others.

[Lauliza]

I give her a lot of credit for owning it and trying to rectify the damage. It still baffles me that so many therapists lack such basic common sense and make promised that no other professional would dare make. Still, she clearly did it from a place of caring since she is willing to help you deal with the pain she caused. She also sounds insightful and gets it - she understand the consequences of offering something you need and then taking it away. A lot of Ts I've read about here seem to miss this part and is why they do so much blaming of the client. I hope you continue to work through it, she sounds like a good T.

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

If I were your therapist, musinglizzy, hearing a story like BayBrony's would really open my eyes to what I'd done. Think that would do anything to get her to at least apologize?

(I'm not suggesting the actual story told here. You can probably find examples on the internet of similar stories.)

Thank you for this. I found a story similar...in fact, I posted it here awhile back. About a T allowing something, then taking it away, and how the client felt. I have always thought about sending that story to her. I don't agree with "taking things away," like my T and like Bay is dealing with now. I wonder if they realize how much damage that does to the therapeutic relationship. Seriously. They should remain as consistent as they can. I don't know how long Bay's T has been a T, but she never should have allowed such a thing if she wasn't going to follow through. I do get why, but it's still too damaging to the client. FWIW, my T has been a T for over 25 years, and said she had never done "that" with anyone else before, until me. I'm sure, after how it's affected me, that I'll be the last, too.

[musinglizzy]

For you, Bay...here's the story I mentioned.

From In Session: Arlene is 49 and in training to become a therapist herself. She has been in therapy with Paul for three years. At the end of their first session, he asked if she wanted a hug. After that, the hug became a regular part of each session's closing. Arlene became very attached to this ritual: "If I only see him once a week, that's one hug a week instead of two. I'm embarrassed to admit that I think about it in those terms, but I do. The hug means caring, acceptance, validation. I was raised to feel it was wrong or bad to have any needs of my own. The hug says that it's okay to give affection, it's okay to be vulnerable, I don't have to be ashamed."

Arlene's parents divorced when she was two, and she saw her father only on weekends. Arlene felt that her mother took things away from her if Arlene wanted them too much, or if they made her feel too special.

One afternoon, about a year and a half into Arlene's therapy, Paul was visibly upset when he came into the waiting room to get her for their session. She looked at him sympathetically, and he said, "I think I need a hug." Arlene was happy to oblige. "I was feeling very special and really good."

At the time, Arlene was having "all sorts of fantasies" about Paul. Some were romantic, but mostly she imagined him as a "good daddy," who embodied everything she didn't get from her own father--"openness, affection and respect." The next session, when Paul came into the waiting room to get Arlene, she rose immediately and hugged him, institutionalizing the spontaneous gesture of the prior session. She interpreted his lackluster response as tacit approval of this new ritual.

Two months after the initial breach, as Arlene rose from her chair and moved toward Paul to give him what had become their routine session-opening hug, he stopped her. "I'm not going to do this anymore," he said. "You want something from me that I don't want to give." Arlene felt the rebuff was "a slap in the face."

Paul later acknowledged that he never should have asked Arlene for a hug in the first place and should not have allowed the hugs to continue, but that now he had to put a stop to them in order to take care of himself. Arlene's hugs felt too "greedy," too "grabby," too "possessive" and that made him uncomfortable.

Arlene felt so devastated by Paul's remarks that she did not raise the subject of the hug again for many months. Once again, as in childhood, something good, something that made her feel special, had been taken away from her because she had been too greedy and let her needs show.

Paul's initial boundary breach arose out of his own need: he spontaneously used his client to comfort himself and, in doing so, failed to put his client's interests above his own. Psychologist Michael Kahn, Ph.D., author of Between Therapist and Client (W. H. Freeman, 1991), offers two other criteria for assessing the symbolic impact of a boundary shift: Is it a form of seduction, or of punishment?

Seduction need not be overtly sexual; any act that stirs some kind of desire in the client for the therapist is seductive. The client feels lured in and led to expect more than is possible, something beyond the usual therapeutic services. Punishment is anything the therapist does that hurts or damages the client in order to satisfy his own emotional needs.

When Paul terminated the opening hugs, he again justified his action on the basis of serving his own needs rather than Arlene's--her greediness was making him uncomfortable. In both initiating the hug and in putting a stop to it, then, Paul had put his own interests above his client's.

Paul's request for the hug had seductive connotations. It lured Arlene into feeling as though she were special, not like other clients, and that Paul and she had a relationship beyond the bounds of the usual client-therapist alliance. Although it made Arlene feel temporarily powerful, it did not actually increase her power in the relationship in any way To the contrary, she felt less able to predict or control what might happen next. She could not even talk about the hug for fear of losing it. So Paul erred further by allowing the crossing to become an unspoken secret between therapist and client.

If Paul had set the right therapeutic context, Arlene might have been able to use his perception that her hugs felt "greedy" to advance her understanding of herself. As the rationale for his rejection, the comment did more harm than good. In fact, the hug had such a heavy symbolic charge for Arlene that she could not help but seem greedy, especially because she expected anything good to be snatched away from her. When Paul halted the hugs, his behavior had punitive connotations: he withdrew his favors out of disapproval of Arlene's behavior.

"The message he was giving me in therapy was it's okay to feel, to be open, to give, to let yourself be vulnerable, to have needs--you don't have to feel ashamed," Arlene says. "But then when I got into a situation with him where I thought that's what I was doing, I was told that I was wrong. He kicked the needy little girl part of me around."

When a boundary shifts in therapy, the client often experiences a sense of dislocation, the ground giving way beneath her. She does not dare to question the therapist's intent because the crossing feels like a bonus. In most psychotherapy, the medium of exchange is words, rather than actions, with therapists varying even in their degree of emotional expressiveness. Touch is more primal, more visceral-and more provocative.

The clients I have interviewed reported that hugs had the potential to become a sort of extra-therapeutic reward system, like the pediatrician's lollipop at the end of a session. Along these lines, clients also reported that hugs readily took on punitive connotations since there was always a threat that they would be withheld if the client "misbehaved" during the session.

Often a boundary crossing unleashes the fantasy that deep, childlike wishes and needs are finally going to be met, that she is finally going to get what she has been waiting for all her life. The rules are gone, the sky is going to rain love.

For Arlene, Paul's hugs were magical. They came from the person who seemed symbolically capable of rectifying all the failings of her father. His hugs were gold doled out at the end of sessions, more immediate and gratifying than the therapy itself. When Paul began offering a hug at the beginning of the sessions, implying that it was as much for him as for her, Arlene felt that she could finally get what she had always wanted, and hung on for dear life.

[BayBrony]

I don't know that I agree that she never should have allowed it. I just wish she'd stated a clear period of time rather than leaving it open ended. I am fortunate in that my T did NOT single me put as special in anyway but made it clear that she is having the same discussion with multiple people in her life.
Also the way she explained it to me was helpful...since she made it clear that 1. She will be able to be a better therapist to me if she gave me this space and 2 explaining the emotional need behind her decision ( my T and I are both highly sensitive introverts so when she explained the different pulls on her attention I felt a lot of compassion for her and it was easier to understand her need for space )
Also texting is not part of what happens IN the therapy room. Which makes the loss a bit easier. Also because the issue is specific to her life outside work I don't have a lot of fear that she will take something else away.
It hurts a lot...but at the same time we are both being more open and vulnerable with each other than I would have thought possible.
And I think for me the text thing was trying to draw to a natural conclusion. I instinctively understood she would not be able to keep at it indefinitely. And while it gave me a deep sense of connection my next task is to learn to hold on to connection without constant reassurance. I would have rather done it more gradually, but..oh well.
I suspect as time goes on I will cycle through feeling better and worse about it.
I don't really relate to the book excerpt. I guess because there is no sense of " BUT WHY???"
My T is SO like me that her reasons resonate with me. On her shoes I would need the same space. I've carved out a life with nearly daily solitude in nature but not everyone is that fortunate. ..

I just think being so open and honest made it incredibly easier as did the fact that it's not about ME but the effect of being overstretched in general....

[Cinnamon_Stick]

I am glad your T owned up to it and is trying to fix it.

I wish you could have that Lizzy. You deserve it also.

[JaneTennison1]

I don't think we can prevent hurt or disappointment in life but it is wonderful that your T owned it and explained it. As well she sat with your feelings on the issue and didn't try to make them go away just so she wouldn't feel badly. What a very healing corrective experience to know people can change things and still be what you need,

I think your therapist shows a lot of courage and compassion "owning" up to what she did by offering something and then taking it away. I do believe that therapists are only human, and they most definitely DO make mistakes. What I would wish is that training programs would take "real life" posts like this and use them in the training of new therapists. I know how most in-training therapists would respond to your post--there would be a huge gasp of horror and then a lively conversation about how unethical and unskilled your therapist was in even offering such a service. BUT a skilled and compassionate supervisor/instructor would be able to lead the discussion into why it happened and how this type of situation happens more than most trainees think. When you're a trainee, you're enthusiastic, starry eyed and believe that you know the ethical guidelines and that you'd NEVER step over the line. But it happens and often therapists find themselves over the line without even realizing it until they're drowning and overwhelmed. Then they get tough and are surprised and embarrassed by the chaos they've created--and they really are the ones that created it! When they backpedal, the only way many of them feel they can save themselves is by blaming the client--as in, the client "invited" or "manipulated" me to step over my boundaries. It leaves clients stinging and feeling the blame for the boundary crossing--as when a therapist says to a client: "I've never done that with another client before!" Guess who feels like they are somehow wicked or enticing their therapist to do wrong? Yep, the client.

Therapists in training really don't spend enough time learning how important it is to determine what their boundaries are and why they have those boundaries before they even begin to practice. And they need to know that they need to examine and re-examine those boundaries constantly while practicing--and not just internally but with a supervisor and then with peers in a professional/clinical setting. Trainees and poorly trained or self-aware therapists often have poor understanding on a deep level of the affect their mistakes have on a client, and how the pain their mistakes create don't just "go away" by a single apology qualified by a "but . . . ." I sure know that when I had my training over 40 years ago, I had no true understanding of this issue and only learned it through my own errors and very skilled supervisors. We'll never see an end to "mistakes" but better preparation and even better culling of the herd of trainees needs to happen.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

I think your therapist shows a lot of courage and compassion "owning" up to what she did by offering something and then taking it away. I do believe that therapists are only human, and they most definitely DO make mistakes. What I would wish is that training programs would take "real life" posts like this and use them in the training of new therapists. I know how most in-training therapists would respond to your post--there would be a huge gasp of horror and then a lively conversation about how unethical and unskilled your therapist was in even offering such a service. BUT a skilled and compassionate supervisor/instructor would be able to lead the discussion into why it happened and how this type of situation happens more than most trainees think. When you're a trainee, you're enthusiastic, starry eyed and believe that you know the ethical guidelines and that you'd NEVER step over the line. But it happens and often therapists find themselves over the line without even realizing it until they're drowning and overwhelmed. Then they get tough and are surprised and embarrassed by the chaos they've created--and they really are the ones that created it! When they backpedal, the only way many of them feel they can save themselves is by blaming the client--as in, the client "invited" or "manipulated" me to step over my boundaries. It leaves clients stinging and feeling the blame for the boundary crossing--as when a therapist says to a client: "I've never done that with another client before!" Guess who feels like they are somehow wicked or enticing their therapist to do wrong? Yep, the client.

Therapists in training really don't spend enough time learning how important it is to determine what their boundaries are and why they have those boundaries before they even begin to practice. And they need to know that they need to examine and re-examine those boundaries constantly while practicing--and not just internally but with a supervisor and then with peers in a professional/clinical setting. Trainees and poorly trained or self-aware therapists often have poor understanding on a deep level of the affect their mistakes have on a client, and how the pain their mistakes create don't just "go away" by a single apology qualified by a "but . . . ." I sure know that when I had my training over 40 years ago, I had no true understanding of this issue and only learned it through my own errors and very skilled supervisors. We'll never see an end to "mistakes" but better preparation and even better culling of the herd of trainees needs to happen.

It was a LOT easier for me knowing that she was setting this boundary with everyone in her life. That it wasn't just me. That was comforting. Especially that it wasn't even just clients but friends, people she volunteers with etc that she was telling this too. That made it more clearly about her. I think we all understand how you pick up your phone to do ONE thing and then it's an hour later. So I understand she can't make an exception for me because once she picks up.her phone and sees all the other messages she'll feel pressure to respond. And like I said we are very very similar. I can't imagine living her life. I absolutely need an hour or so alone outside everyday to center myself. I'd come unmoored without it. So knowing what her life is like especially with such an emotional and detailed explanation makes it a lot easier to accept.

I really think she should have given me a transition period but maybe ripping the bandaid off all at once is better. ...

[Parva]

I'm new around here, but this thread hit a chord for me.

I communicate with my T multiple times every day. Text, email, phone. For right now, it's what I need. The gift of neglect...

Your experience hit me hard, since I live with this fear constantly. Pragmatically, I know what I'm asking of my T is a big thing, and through transference, I assume that I'm asking too much. I guess I'm saying how much I empathize with what you must be feeling. I give you a lot of credit and I think you have a ton of strength for how you've handled this.

[musinglizzy]

Yeah, I think you have a really good, thoughtful T. Mine told me her actions weren't her "modality" and that she does not "do that" nor is she comfortable with it. Well, she surely offered it...and for like 5 months too...so it wasn't a spur of the moment mistake...it went on for 5 months, where SHE initiated it. She WAS comfortable with it (or she wouldn't have done it on her own for that long), and she's good at it. It caused a major set back in my therapy, and I'm not sure I'll ever recover from it, since I've been trying to for 5 months. And beating myself up the whole time for feeling the way I do. I am not happy for what happened, Bay, but am very happy with how your T handled it. Very respectfully. She's a good one.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

Yeah, I think you have a really good, thoughtful T. Mine told me her actions weren't her "modality" and that she does not "do that" nor is she comfortable with it. Well, she surely offered it...and for like 5 months too...so it wasn't a spur of the moment mistake...it went on for 5 months, where SHE initiated it. She WAS comfortable with it (or she wouldn't have done it on her own for that long), and she's good at it. It caused a major set back in my therapy, and I'm not sure I'll ever recover from it, since I've been trying to for 5 months. And beating myself up the whole time for feeling the way I do. I am not happy for what happened, Bay, but am very happy with how your T handled it. Very respectfully. She's a good one.

Well I don't think you should beat yourself up. I nearly quit therapy over this but she explained the difficulty it was causing her so clearly. And has let me talk and talk and cry and cry with no judgement. If a T does this its their job to accept that they hurt you and work to rebuild trust. I don't think your T has done that...

[Restin]

I might be all wrong, but it seems to me that T abruptly required the end of evening emails, and such, because of a certain inexperience some helping kinds of people have. A person like your T, who loves and cares very much, tries to give all that she can, then quite suddenly hits against a terror of crashing. She makes an ultimatum in order to save herself, to stay functional, and not have a breakdown that would put her out for months or years, for both her family and for you. It may even seem like a small thing she has to stop, but that happens to be the line where she is at, in my view of it.
I agree that it would be so much more honorable if she suggested it to you instead of a mandate. That's tough for you to take and doesn't give you credit for respect. Nevertheless, I just think she is someone who needs to learn where her limits are so that she won't have to suddenly hit a wall and have to make sudden decisions. I'm sure she dreaded having to be sudden and firm with you, but she did what she had to do and hopes you will not take it too hard to repair. I suggest this because i've been in this place a few times when I was helping people, and have seen others there too.

[divine1966]

I am sorry you have to go through this but I suspect that maybe it started effecting her marital life and/or her husband told her she needs to be with the family when at home. It could be entirely his decision. I am just speculating here. But in all honesty no matter how she cares of her clients she has to choose her family. I do feel for you though. It hurts

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[unaluna]

Hey - this is america. Wife tells husband how it is.

[BayBrony]

No she was pretty clear on the reason and the part that helps is it makes sense to me. Now I am a veterinarian in solo practice. I'm NEVER away from my phone except a week out of the whole year. I have a constant influx of calls, texts and emails ...but since I work on horses my day naturally involves quiet and solitude. Plus I have no kids and if I am not working I am outside with my horse or dogs in all weather. I am a highly sensitive introvert and since I have a job that necessitates lots of talking with other people this time is essential to my well being. Constitutionally my T is practically my identical twin...but she listens to people all day then goes home to 5 kids. She needs that hour or so after family responsibilities are handled to have quiet. To have no voice coming in but her own. And I really get that. Really really get it.

Strangely my T also teaches yoga and I have been talking with her about attending a class ( I do yoga on my own as well) but I've been hesitant because my eating disorder makes me SO self conscious of doing it around others. Now she has started doing individual yoga classes and emailed to see if I want to do some with her....ummm.....so I am confused. Kind of happy about the idea of doing that but confused...

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by hankster

Hey - this is america. Wife tells husband how it is.

It is not a gender issue. If therapist has a family but spends every evening on the phone with clients it could become detrimental to their family regardless of gender. And spouse of any gender might bring the issue up. Or even the kids if they still live at home.

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[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by BayBrony

Strangely my T also teaches yoga and I have been talking with her about attending a class ( I do yoga on my own as well) but I've been hesitant because my eating disorder makes me SO self conscious of doing it around others. Now she has started doing individual yoga classes and emailed to see if I want to do some with her....ummm.....so I am confused. Kind of happy about the idea of doing that but confused...

I have always been intrigued by the practice of yoga, but I, too, am so self conscious. I would love to learn it with my T, but I figured that would be a "dual relationship" of sorts, and am afraid she'd say no, so I will never ask. I don't want to feel any further rejection from her.

My T teaches a yoga/mindfulness/CBT class in conjunction with a yoga instructor. I've never been particularly interested in taking it although he said I could if I wished.

[BayBrony]

I really like yoga. I was a marathon runner before my muscle disease. Yoga let's me feel like I can still push my limits physically even though endurance sports are now out for me. It's also helped me down regulate my arousal level which is very high( ptsd)